ngbills

As it should be. Lamar should have much more leeway than Josh based on what each has done thus far in the league. Lamar can be the same guy or slightly worse because he was that good. Josh can possibly be the same guy but that would be a huge disappointment because he was not close to good enough. If he is worse then red flags go up. Same goes for ever QB in the league that is still establishing themselves.

The Josh debate is so funny on this board. To answer the question in the most simplest way possible...every season is a make or break season in some regard for every QB outside of a Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. If he plays awful he is potentially benched, he plays average then there are going to be a lot of questions, he plays great then he is on to another year with much more faith in him. That same logic applies to tons of QB's in this league. Not sure we the board thinks its only Josh. Even Lamar Jackson who is an MVP favorite. If he plays bad he is still at the stage that they question him as the long term QB.

Murphy is gone after this year. If you get the guy you can then let go of Hughes or Addison as well and both would not be a huge amount of dead cap. Jefferson could be gone as well. I think its a no brainer if you can get him for a 2nd. How can you justify Diggs for a 1st and not this guy for a 2nd. Bigger need is only logic, but I would say our pass rush is a huge need.

This displays the bias. With Allen is everyone else fault for anything bad, but all him for anything good. For every other QB anything good is because of others. Ok I get it now. Look at BALT pre Lamar. Look at SF pre Garrapolo Look at GB with and without Rodgers HOU before Watson KC before Mahomes Those offenses are night and day with different QB's. The Bills have yet to match the Tyrod days of production. And dont tell me how Tyrod had a great supporting cast, it was horrendous. Allen is the only QB of these that has not transformed his offense.

Here is the problem right here. The bar is WAAAAAYYYYYYY too low. You look at that game as an example of Allen being the entire offense. Many Bills fans that desperately want Allen to be the guy may think the same. Most people would watch that game and say the opposite. A young QB that hopefully learns from that game and gets better. Josh would admit to you he was not good enough. He wishes he can have a do-over. The coaches know this. But he is young and has a ton of upside. He will get smarter and the game will slow down. Hopefully he can get control over his arm and learn how to make the throws that he is struggling with as a young QB.

And we got obliterated by the Eagles at our house. It happens. Look at more data - The Bills were 1-5 vs teams with winning records and the one win was vs a bad Tenn team, before they turned it around.

I would 100% bet my life on it that if Allen was on any other team this board would not be so high on him. Fact. Anyone who is not a fan, does not watch and read all the Bills produced media or just a Bills supporter would look at his numbers or watch the big games (playoffs, NE, etc) and have doubts. I am a Bills fan and I try to keep it real. I would take Josh and his potential over many QB's. But I am still critical and have no problem with those that say he could hold this team back. If he progresses and the rest of the squad just maintains we have a Super Bowl contender. If he does not progress, this is easily back to being a team that is fighting for a final playoff spot which makes it a #12-18 ranked team.

Do it. If they will take Kroft then great. If not, throw in a draft pick or whatever vet OL/DL we plan on cutting.

Not if the rest of the AFCE grades out worse. MIA QB: C- RB: C+ TE: C- WR: C+ OL:C+ CB: C+ S: C+ LB: B- DL: B- ST: B NE QB: C RB: C+ TE: D+ WR: B- OL: B+ CB: B+ S: B+ LB: C+ DL: C ST: C NYJ QB: C+ RB: B TE: C- WR: C OL: C- CB: C- S: B LB: C DL: B- ST: C

This is called being a fan. You see your player differently than others. You make excuses and justifications for your guy. It is ok for Allen not to be a finished product after two years. He can still be a megastar in this league. He has ways to go. But it is extremely naive to claim that he was one of the best QB's in the league last year. To set the record straight again. I do not disregard his running. Without it I would not want him starting at QB at this point in his career. His running makes up for weaknesses in his game and will always have value. Someday it will not be his saving grace but just an added bonus.

I agree with you in theory regarding play style. Josh has more of the tools and traits needed to succeed long term in the league than Jackson. But as of today all things being equal and against the exact same defenses I still say Jackson is the better QB. Hopefully after this season that is put to rest and Allen shows he is the guy. Put another way - if I need to win a game tomorrow then I take Jackson as my QB. If I want to win for the next 10 years I am more likely to take Allen.

That may be how you see it but most non-Bills fans would not agree with you. Jackson was excellent as a pocket passer last year. Lets look at some of your comments: 3rd and 7+ Jackson: 30-51 for 436 resulting in 19 1st downs; 1 Int Allen was: 40-71 for 529 resulting in 22 1st downs; 1 int Jackson - more accurate, more efficient and more success getting the first down Play Action Jackson: 66.3% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.5% on play action 30% of TD's on play action 28% of yards on play action QB Rating 120 on play action vs 110 Allen: 57.1% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.6% on play action 40% of TD's on play action 25% of yards on play action QB Rating 112 on play action vs 79 Allen benefited more than Jackson utilizing the play action. Allen shows a much larger statistical difference on play action plays than Jackson. Time in Pocket Jackson: >2.5 secs completes 64% of passes Allen: >2.5 secs completes 48% of passes Jackson is much more accurate when having time in pocket.

How so?

Only mention the record because of the call out of facts. The opinion is he should be considered 7-4 but the fact is that he is 7-5. That is what the record books will show. Not looking to debate or argue anything, it is what it is. Lamar Jackson is a better passer than Josh Allen as of now. I do think the running part of his game will be less significant as teams game plan to limit it and he will rely more on his passing skills. It is much easier for a defense to scheme around limiting a running QB than a passing one. Still an important skillset but to be a QB you need to be able to throw the rock.

Lets keep it real and honest. I was referencing passing stats and said not sure where the 21 TD's comes from. I never said rushing TD's dont count. And talk about inaccurate facts: "And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year" - Zay and Foster barely played. McK was our gadget WR. It was Brown, Beasley, Knox, and Singletary in most sets. Sprinkle in McK, D Williams, Roberts, etc. He was not second to only Lamar. Just a quick search shows Brees had 26 TD's, Tannehill 26, Winston 25, Wilson 24, Watson 24, Dak at 23, Garappolo 23, Cousins 23, Fitzpatrick 23, and a few more with 21. His stats show he was 7-5 not 7-4. You can put a asterisk but that does not change the "fact". Rushing TD's do count. Without his rushing ability Allen is not even close to the same QB he is. It supplements the shortfalls in his passing game. But as the NFL has shown is not sustainable. A QB needs to be able to throw the ball. Allen as a throwing QB is not there yet.

He only had 20 TD's all year. Not sure were the 21 TD's comes from. And from week 5-17 he threw for over 250 yd's 2 times (300 zero times). He completed less than 60% of his passes 5 times. QB rating in 60's 4 times. The team was 7-5. He was not dominant. He was a game manager.

I think it is the intent. I am assuming but this has the looks of a "if your going to punish bad white people why not punish bad black people".

Does not mean they are not trying. He could be waiting things out to find the best landing spot. No reason for him to rush.

Another way to ask the question who would they trade that is tradeable... Murphy Kroft Yeldon Long

Last season Seattle was 12-6 in a season Clowney dealt with injuries. In games he played 75% of the snaps they were 6-1 including 3 wins vs playoff teams.

Sign Clowney to 1 year deal and cut Murphy. Easy instant upgrade.

How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind.

Brees was never labeled as inaccurate the way Allen has been. It was a strength that he improved upon not a weakness that he has reversed. Ryan was 62% his Soph and Jr years and dipped to 59+% his Sr year. Overall was still 60%. Those are all higher than Allen has ever achieved at any level. Again, if we were seeing Allen hit 64% one year and 55% another then I would say it is more of a training and consistency issue. But he has only shown to be a lower completion level guy. Right now that is who he is and if you look at history there are not many examples of QB's that guy from being that guy to a different one. I watched Rodgers at Cal practice nearly everyday. He came from a small high school and then JC like Allen. But his accuracy and Allen's are not even close. Rodgers could go 100 straight passes hitting a guy on the numbers. He was that good. It is part of his make up. That is not Allen and he is not likely to become that. The hope is he gets better but I just dont buy the whole he really is not that different than all of these great QB's. He is and everyone knows it including Josh. I would be shocked if he is sitting around making excuses, adding in a few passes here and there that make his numbers look better. He knows it is an issue and will make or break his career.

Here is the difference in all of these comparisons around improvements, etc. Brees was a >60% completion guy in 3 years at Purdue. He came to the NFL and did the same and improved upon it. Look at Brady, M Ryan, Rivers, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, etc and you see the same. All better accuracy in college and similar trend in the NFL. Allen was a 56% completion guy in both years at Wyoming. He actually was sub 60% at his Junior College and even in High School as well. In the NFL he has been the same with a light uptick last year. Yet, we want to assume he will get more accurate and reference that others have done it. Allen would be the exception not the norm.

I dont read on here anyone being extremely negative. Unless saying at this point in his career he is in the bottom tier of QB's as a passer. With a good defense and his running ability you can have seasons like last year. But he has not shown that he can be a top tier QB yet. You can debate the stats dont mean anything, etc etc. But stats at this point mean more than opinions. If that is ridiculous to say then you are just not being objective.