Shaw66

It's really simple, and people don't want to accept it. McDermott (and lots of other coaches) say it all the time. The best player plays. It's a competition, in practice, in games, all the time. The current winner of the competition plays. You aren't the winner in the competition because you're a close second but have more potential. Potential doesn't make you better. The guy with potential has every day in practice to show he's better. If he's a close second, like Elam was last season, he gets playing time in games. He gets graded. If his grades are better than the others, he gets more playing time. If they aren't, he doesn't. How much playing time did Ford get because he had more potential? Very little. Why? Because other players were better, and the Bills wanted the best players on the field. Ford kept getting tryouts for the first time, a little playing time here and there, and he never did it. Somehow people think it should be different for Elam. All it really means is that your evaluation of Elam is different from McDermott's. McDermott desperately wants to win, and he has about 100 times more information about Elam than you do. I think if McDermott thought Elam was the best option, he'd put him on the field more.

How do I know? Really? How do I know? How many teams have you been on where the coach played the second best player at some position over the best player at the position? I've been on a lot of teams, and I can't recall the coach EVER playing the second best player. Coaches want to win. Coaches also want the respect of the players; the players know who the best players on the team are, and they lose respect for the coach when the coach doesn't play them. It's true about all teams I've known. Coaches quit when the owner makes them play players who aren't the best at their positions. So, it's simple: The Bills grade their players in detail. They play the best players. Elam is not a regular starter. It follows that Elam doesn't have the best grades at the position. Compare Elam to Cook. Cook didn't play a lot early in the season. Why? Same reason as Elam: He didn't grade out as being good enough to play. He played more as the season progressed. Why? Because he kept working and his grades improved, in practice and in games. Better grades, more playing time. Eventually, his grades got so good that he passed Motor, and the Bills finally concluded they could let Motor go. Cook passed Singletary. Elam hasn't passed Jackson and Benford. It's that simple.

I think should have been precise; thee regular season is different from the preseason. The preseason TV schedule is driven by what the fans think - the fans seem to think the Bills are done, so the networks don't want to show the Bills. I think the regular season is driven more by common sense - the networks know who the good teams are, and the NFL knows who the good teams are, so the Bills got a lot of prime-time slots. I look at the ESPN.com NFL home page most days, and it amazes me how few of the stories are about the Bills. It's because the fans aren't interested in the Bills this off season, so ESPN knows not to cover them much. That will change once the season starts, because I think the Bills will be a force to be reckoned with. When the Bills are dominant in the league, the fans will take notice again. It's what I've always said - the Bills have to earn their coverage. The Giants, the Jets, the Cowboys, they don't have to do anything and they're on the front pages.

It's consistent with how the media always cover the Bills. Until you're viewed by the general public as legitimately good, the Bills don't get covered. The general public believed the Bills were good for exactly one year: from 13 seconds to the loss to the Bengals. Now, the general public has forgotten about the Bills again. The Bills have to win something to become relevant to the general public; until then, the networks aren't interested. It's life in a small market.

That's you talking. That's not McDermott. On this team, as on every other team, your job is to do your job, the whole job, not just part of the job. The players get graded on how well they do the whole job. Elam hasn't played because he doesn't do the whole job as well as the other guys. Simple as that. Even if covering the receiver is the most important part of the job, even if grading is weighted to reflect that, which it probably is, Elam is not grading out better than the other guys. That's why he isn't playing. That's why Epenesa isn't a starter, no matter how good he may have been in college. That's why Cody Ford didn't start. That's why Cook didn't get significant snaps the first half of the last season. Somehow, because you have some love affair going with Elam, you think Elam should start even though he isn't the best at the position. Have you ever known Beane to leave a position of need ignored? Ever? He needed guards this year, and he got them. He need corners last year, and he got them. He need edge rushers starting about three years ago, and he got them, in spades. Beane ALWAYS fills needs. So you know what your list of drafted linebackers, and the list of free agent linebackers signed, means? It means that Beane and McDermott do not think that MLB is a position of need, that they think they have the guys they need to play the position. You actually seem to believe that all the linebackers, other than Milano, suck, and that somehow McDermott and Beane haven't noticed? Don't you see how unrealistic that is? Their linebackers DON'T suck, or they would have gone out and gotten someone.

No, no, no. The Bills are very public about the extent to which they grade people. Every player is graded every day. How they play on the field is graded in minute detail. McDermott has been very clear, over and over, that the guy who plays the best plays, regardless of his draft position. And no, he does NOT play guys in real games so that they can develop. Practice is for developing, games are for winning. So, yes, it may be less apparent to you, but that's just because you're not paying attention. The guy who does the job best plays, period. That's the way it works on almost every team, from pee wees up to the NFL.

Sort of related. But it doesn't change the point. CB2, like every other position, has certain responsibilities. The players are taught what they're supposed to do under various play calls and circumstances. They get graded on how well they execute the job. Elam didn't start because he didn't execute as well as the others in games. Yes, maybe he was best at aspects of man coverage, but the others were better at other aspects of the job. It's very simple.

This is not in nearly large enough font. It needs to be all caps, bold, and big.

Yes. And they get graded against what they were supposed to do. It is a certainty that Elams grades were lower; that's why he didn't play more. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Don't know if I'd ever seen Phillips interviewed before. This man is so cool. Nothing bothers him. And frank. Says Floyd and Ford are special. Says that's what you need to have a great defense, you need to be loaded. They asked about Rousseau, and he said he's now a grown man. Compared him to Mario Williams. Said he's big and fast. Phillips is clearly excited to be on the field with these guys. Also talks about the difference between Frazier and McD. McD has an edge, which I'd hope would be the difference. He also said McD is more colorful, and I think that meant that his words are more direct. Love it.

Nice story and perfect photo, capturing the moment, even without Josh in the picture. Backup offensive lineman, doing his job in a good-natured way, young girl thrilled to be up close with any of the players, happy to get an autograph, even though she probably doesn't know who 72 is. Then Josh runs by, gives the high five, and the girl goes nuts. Doyle already knows he's NFL chopped liver and didn't need the moment to remind him, but he gets it, waiting patiently for the girl to come back to earth to get her cap back. When she takes the cap to school, she'll show her friends the autograph and tell everyone that while she was getting it, Josh Allen high fived her. If you're a good dad, you'll be sure she knows Doyle's name and understands that he's an important part of the story, too. Great photo. A keeper. Here we go! Love it!

Well, I never once looked at this thread during its short happy life, but I happened to look at it when Warcoded brought it back. Actually, I was disappointed with the Robin Williams clip; I was hoping actually to hear from people who joined this parade with Josh. They must have a really interesting perspective on the Bills and all of us junkies who've been living this life for a few decades. I often tell this story here, and I won't repeat all of it here, but I saw the Bills in Fenway Park in 1967. There was on section in the stadium that was full of Bills fans, and they were really rowdy. So, I left my seat and walked over to where the Bills fans were. The reason they were so rowdy was that they got on the train in Buffalo at midnight, drank all the way to Boston, and then went directly to the game. Sometimes on the Buffalo Bills message board I would think we're all still on that train (sort of like a Bills-fan Snowpiercer), drunk beyond belief, yelling at each other. Sometimes lately here it's gotten a little like that, but never quite so bad. I think fan forums have a personality, and the personality keeps changing over time, as the people change, as their points of view change, as the fortunes of the team change. It's unreasonable to expect it to be the same every week, let alone every year. This off season was particularly bad, because I agree Bills fans are better losers than winners. Bills fans were more realistic about the players on the team when the team was losing. Nobody's point of view here was the Bills just need one more player and Tyrod will take us to the Super Bowl. People understood who Tyrod was. There are plenty of people here who have proclaimed Josh to be a god, and they are amazingly angry that Beane and McDermott have disrespected Josh by not acquiring 25 of the 50 best players in the league to assist him as he climbs Mr. Olympus. That are others who think Beane and McDermott are gods too, and they can't understand how anyone could complain about anything they do. There are still others who think Beane and McDermott are hacks and should be put on their own train somewhere. I've been waiting for training camp to start so that all of that off-season noise would stop, but surprisingly it hasn't. Threads about a day in training camp turn into long-winded debates about why Beane didn't acquire a better backup right tackle. Really? Can't we just watch the team as it begins to get ready for the season, watch the progress of the new guys, be amazed, again, at some of the balls Josh throws and some of the catches Stefon makes, and be excited about what's to come? I guess not. Anyway, it'll change, so I don't worry too much about it, especially because the worst days hear are not close to even average days on the BBMB. It's 25 years and counting for this forum, and if we have to put up with some whining once in a while, so be it.

All of the above. The GM brings in talent to compete for roster spots, including PS spots. They drafted Torrence with an expectation that he'd start, but the real bottom line is that he was brought in to compete. If Shell wins the starting job outright, so be it. If he's the backup to Brown, so be it. If he's the second back up tackle behind Quess, so be it. I don't think they expected one outcome or another - they just brought in talent to compete.

I agree. Quess is a journeyman right tackle. You know what you're getting. By comparison, Brown is an adventure. He'll make some plays for you, but then he'll disappoint. Quess's consistency is worth something.

My recollection is that what Beane said, in so many words, they'd like him to be an answer in the middle, and they might look at him a bit there, but that primarily he'd start outside and learn the game. If he'd turned out to be some kind of savant in OTAs, we might be seeing him in the middle now, but that isn't what was expected. What I understood Beane to be saying was that the guy could be a factor in the middle at some time, but probably not right away. That is exactly what we're seeing.

Yes, if this is the latest in endless problems with his back, it's much better to start working his replacement into the first unit now. Much better.

Got you. Thanks for the explanation. I've been in plenty of those discussions. It's funny for all of us to have these discussions on the fly as we're seeing info from the early days of training camp. Fact is, it seems that if we'd just waited until the end of practice today, we'd all be saying it looks like Elam is starting to win the job. Reality is, none of us knows.

He gets reps every day in training camp. Every day. First team reps and second team reps. It's exactly the same as JV football in high school, varsity, college. The best players get the first team reps, because the coach wants the first team to play together. Coaches essentially never play the second best guy to give him reps. That would be like saying sit Davis and give Shorter the first team reps. Coaches don't do that. When Shorter shows he may be better than another guy, he'll start sharing reps with that guy. That is exactly where Elam is. You don't play because you have potential. You play when you do your job better than the guy ahead of you.

How hard is this to understand? They aren't sitting him to make a point. CB2 is a job, and someone is doing the job better than Elam. And he isn't sitting. He's playing, but just not full time.

That's very much what I see. Frankly, I think it also carries over from rookie camp and OTAs. The Bills knew before they got to St. John Fisher that Torrence would get these early first-team reps. Everyone is being evaluated every day in every imaginable way. It's also why we see rookies working their way into playing time as the season progresses. Cook was a good example. I, along with a lot of people, was disappointed that he wasn't in the regular rotation from day 1. I was disappointed because I wanted to see him, but also because I knew it meant that he wasn't yet doing some things the staff needed to see before they were willing to give him significant snaps. As the season progressed he got over the hump, earned some reps, and by the end of the season he was looking like the back the Bills hoped they were getting. Elam's been even slower; I hope he makes it. I'm happy to see Torrence getting these early reps, because it is/was a position of great need.

It's funny. Some people expect rookies to be plug-and-play and blame McD when they aren't seeing a lot of playing time. Some- Sal, I guess - expect rookies to have long learning curves and work their way in slowly and blame McD for playing his favorites when they aren't ready. In fact, McD is doing what your high school coach did: study all the guys who are trying out and pick guys for the roster and to start based on how well they seem to do what's expected of them. The fact that Torrence is getting a lot of first team reps and Dorian Williams isn't is an early indication of how these guys look to their coaches. As I said, that's an encouraging development out of week 1.

You make good points, but unless Torrence is flat our better, I'd guess they start Bates and work Torrence in for a series or two in the first half. Better way to deal with first-NFL game jitters. If they like what they see, Torrence can play the second half.

As I think others have said, that ignores Hyde and Poyer being out, White coming back. It ignores that his season, barring injury, the Bills will have Miller and Floyd rushing off the edges. I don't think this is going to be the same defense that has struggled in the playoffs.

No, it isn't puzzling. They studied him, they interviewed him, they talked to his coaches. They did a lot of research and decided he was a guy who could play the scheme they wanted, that he could learn it. That could make him a great corner, like White - another cover corner who learned the defense. Whether they were right remains to be seen.

Yeah, it's too early, but Bado's point is correct. A guy like Shakir doesn't create plays; he takes advantage of opportunities that are created by the guys who DO create, like Allen and Diggs and Cook and (we can hope, Kincaid). If you're a player who takes advantage of opportunities then, well, you have to take advantage. In other words, you have to catch it when it comes to you. One drop in 20 may be too much to ask, but I'm concerned when it seems there's a daily drop or two.