Shaw66

Peterman got started so early in the game that I actually missed the first INT. After that, when I turned it on, it was must-see TV. There's some LOL funny stuff on this forum!

Yup. 87.

Good point. And what if Allen had come out a year early. Would McDermott and Whaley have passed on Allen and Mahomes and Watson? If the Bears had taken Allen, would the Bills have take Trubisky at 10? The whole thing has been so miraculous.

Thanks. I didn't know the Bears' recent history. When the timing is out of sync, it's a problem, because even if the owners are willing to be patient with the HC and GM to get the right QB in the building, the fans usually are not. It's been amazing to watch the current Bills, because it was almost a textbook example of how to do it, with some luck added in. Bills were lucky Marrone quit, and then the owners had the courage to fire Rex. Then with a new coach and GM hired, the most important is the owners, GM and coach all being on board with a plan and having the patience to stick with the plan. It all worked so well, they didn't have to be patient too long. The Bills were smart enough to identify the right QB and work the draft to get him.

Fair enough. As I've said, I don't know about Dalton, and I wouldn't want him. If I'm building a team, I start Fields. Hard to argue with that, given the success that Murray and Jackson have had. Cohen's a nice back, and they have some speed at receiver. But someone after the game on Saturday said that Nagy may not have the luxury of a building year. He may feel a lot of pressure to win this season - this may be his last chance. Dalton actually may give him the better chance to pile up wins this season, as horrifying as that might sound to the average fan. Fields may make more plays than Dalton, but he's almost certainly going to make more mistakes, too. Bears ownership probably wants Fields playing; if I were Nagy, I'd have the conversation with the owner and let everyone get clear about whether they're looking for wins or development. The fans seem to be so excited about Fields that the Bears probably can survive a down year with Fields learning on the job. Frankly, I have my doubts about Nagy - he couldn't figure out how to get the most out of either Foles or Trubisky.

Then Mike Glennon and Ryan Finley were starters. There are 32 starters. When you get benched, you're not the starter, but absent injury, the player the team puts on the field is the starter. And Dalton is still better than Glennon and Finley.

I here what you're saying, and you may be right about Dalton and his injury and where he is now. But you are changing the definition of the word "starter" to make your point. Whether you like it or not, there are 32 starters in the league. With the exception of an occasional guy who's a short-term backup, like Trubisky, and with the occasional exception of a developmental guy, like Tua last season, the 32 best quarterbacks in the league are starting on the 32 teams. Okay, take away the exceptions, and maybe it's 25 of the guys who are starting are the best QBs in the league. They're all starters. Fitzpatrick is an average starter. Dalton was an above average starter, and maybe now he's a below average starter, but he's a starter (unless he loses his job). Fitzpatrick is a great example. He never was going to be a top-10 QB consistently in the NFL, but that doesn't mean he isn't an NFL starter. The league is not, and probably never will be, full of quarterbacks who all are as good as Mahomes and Rodgers and Allen. There's always going to be a top 10, and there's always going to be 22 other guys who are not as good but still are starters. Dallas was delighted to have Dalton as a backup to Dak precisely because he's an NFL starter. Just like we're delighted to have Trubisky. Why delighted? Because it's very unusual for starter level talent to be available as a backup. Why is it unusual? Because by and large, they're starting. You can't say that that Gardner Minshew is not a starter. He was, by choice, his team's starter in 2020. He wasn't a backup playing because the starter was injured. He was the guy his team chose to play. He's a starter. We spent 20 years trying to convince ourselves that our team could win with one average or below average starter after another. Tyrod Taylor was a starter in the NFL. He was a starter because he was the best QB available under the circumstances. That's how it played out. We can't say, "well, Tyrod wasn't a starter." He may not have been the starter we wanted, but he was most definitely a starter. Dalton has been a starter in the NFL for a long time, and maybe you're right, maybe his skills have deteriorated to the point where he no longer will be a starter. But until he's not starting, he's a starter.

If you have an average starter at QB, you have a QB problem. The Bengals had a QB problem pretty much the whole time he was in Cincinnati. You can't win consistently in the NFL if you don't have a top 10 QB. It's not a good thing to have an average starter at QB. Minshew, Fitzpatrick, Bridgewater, Goff, Dalton, Mullens, Newton and some others all are average starters. Why are they average starters? Because they're not top 10, by any stretch of the imagination, and they're all better than the guys who aren't starting anywhere. That's what average is. Now, they may be in different parts of their careers, and if I had to pick among them, I'd pick several over Dalton, but that doesn't mean that Dalton isn't in the group of guys who are average starters.

Look, it's obviously anyone's guess. But Jordan Phillips was drafted higher, and he didn't light it up in his early years. For most guys, it takes a few years to grow into the league, both in terms of strength and knowledge. Harrison Phillips got drafted because he had the basic physique and athleticism that made him project as a long-term player in the league. He has the potential, but he hasn't had the benefit of being on the field a lot. So, the question is whether you think he's always going to be hurt. If that's what you believe, then you let him go. If you think he's just had a bad run of injuries that isn't likely to continue, then you probably keep him. My rule is that you're better off cutting talent too late than too early. Cut him too late, you wasted a roster spot for a year. Cut him too early, and you missed out on a talented guy for five or six years.

I was going to look it up, but yeah. A couple years in a row, down with injuries. Then he was a stud until the final injury.

Not worth arguing about it. I don't want him as my starter. But he was 25th in the league in passer rating last season on a team that's been dysfunctional for years. Now he's playing for a team that hasn't had a clue about offense for years.

Come on. He's 31st on the all-time passer rating list, and he's 18th among all active players. He is most definitely a starter in the NFL. He's won over half his game, and that's while playing on some demonstrably bad teams.

In 2020, Josh had 10 INTs and 9 fumbles in 1035 touches. Less than 2%. I'm sure his coach was perfectly satisfied with that.

This is a really good point. Bills are going to get a conditional pick for him when he leaves. The days of signing a lot of free agents are now in the Bills' rearview mirror. Why? Because Beane has said over and over that he uses free agency to plug holes, and he's now built a team that doesn't have holes. What he will need next season is draft picks, because he wants cheap young talent. He admitted that when he was thinking about trading back in the draft this season, it was for a pick next season. I can't see the Bills trading Trubisky for anything less than a couple of first round picks, and I can't imagine any team doing that. Frankly, I think Trubisky is an average NFL starter, I wouldn't give up two firsts for him.

The team that would give up a lot for Trubisky is a team that thinks it's going to the Super Bowl and their QB gets injured. That's what happened with Bradford - Vikings thought Teddy Bridgewater was their guy. Then Bridgewater went down, the Vikings were trading to save their season.

Yes, but he's a natural return man, second in the league in kickoff return average last season and tenth in punt returns. Fifth and tenth the year before. Second and second the year before that. We're all sorry he's gone, but Roberts is just history now. All I know is I had a reasonable level of confidence in him back there, and I don't have same confidence in McKenzie. That's okay - I'm not the coach, and I'm also not entitled to have everything I want.

I don't know those rules, but I think you're correct. Stevenson doesn't have the option. Is that true for everyone cut, or only rookies? Does it apply to Kumerow? Found this: "A player who gets cut and has less than four years of service time is placed on waivers. All 31 other teams can place a claim on the player and add him to their 53-man roster. If the player passes through waivers unclaimed, they are free to sign with any team as an unrestricted free agent." I don't know what four years of service means - probably active roster time. A guy with four years active roster time should become a free agent immediately.

Interesting question. There's precedent, of course, although it happened in a slightly different circumstance. Sam Bradford was a number one overall pick (Trubisky was second), and became the backup in Philadelphia when the Eagles drafted Wentz and he won the starting job. Bradford had gotten to Philadelphia after a shaky start to his career in St. Louis, the same kind of shaky start Trubisky had. Minnesota gave the Eagles a first and a conditional fourth for Bradford. The Eagles situation was not completely similar. They probably thought they needed to groom Wentz as a starter before they challenged for the Super Bowl, which is exactly what happened. He went 7-9 the season they traded Bradford, and they wouldn't have done much better with Bradford at QB. The next season, they got Foles to back up Wentz, and they won the Super Bowl with Wentz injured and out of the lineup. In other words, the Eagles got themselves a quality back up when they thought they had a shot to win it all, and the backup won it for them. The Bills need a quality backup this year, so a first and a conditional fourth wouldn't be enough. And Fromm and Webb haven't been looking like Nick Foles. He was a third round pick, like Webb, but still.

Several random comments: I'd take the quotes off of "starting" defensive line. Star will play instead of Harrison, but the other three may be the three best playmakers on the Dline roster. I know Hughes will start, and Addison if they keep him, but those three are the ones most likely to make headlines. I like Hollister the first time I saw him in Seattle. He may not have the raw physical talent that Knox has, but he's solid, smart, and consistent. Between the two of them, the Bills will get nice production out of the TE. Stevenson is a real problem. You're right, the Bills probably have to find a spot for him on the 53, because he won't make it to the practice squad, unless he simply decides to decline all offers because he likes his future in Buffalo better. It's only a matter of time (next season at the latest) before he takes McKenzie's job, because he's younger, faster, and has more upside. But he doesn't catch the ball well enough yet, and he's had his own problems handling punts. Outside corner depth is always a problem, because it's always manned by inexperienced players. Most seasons we've been pleasantly surprised by how one rookie or another plays later in the season. I agree it looks shaky, although I think Neal is pretty consistent. Kumerow is my poster child for why the Bills seem so deep. I say "seem," because I'm coming to realize that, like Belichick, McDermott runs a system where smart, motivated players with average talent can be solid contributors. There are a lot of smart, motivated players in the NFL, and so long as Beane does a good job finding them, the Bills will seem like they're deep in talent. I don't think they really are - I think they are deep in guys who can help make the Bills good. I think Kumerow is one, I think McKenzie is one, and Boettger and Bates and Phillips and Matekevich and Gilliam and Johnson and probably a half dozen more. So, for example, McDermott gets faced with the Kumerow-Stevenson problem - if you can't find room for both, do you take the smart, motivated veteran who is going to make routine plays for you consistently but has limited upside (he's like Gabriel Davis without Davis's upside), or do you take the talented, motivated rookie who is going to make some big plays for you but make more mistakes in the short term? I don't have an answer, but I will say this about the two: Speed is critical to success in the NFL. That's why the Chiefs drafted that running back out of LSU. You need speed at the skill positions. McKenzie gives the Bills some, but I have the sense that McKenzie doesn't play fast as a receiver, and Stevenson does. So, I think Stevenson has to make it, not simply to protect him for the future, but because Dabs will work him into the offense to present a challenge to the defense. And I think Kumerow has to make it, too. As I said, he's a poor man's Davis. He's the possession receiver that people hoped Duke Williams would be. He's a security blanket for the QB like a classic tight end. If one has to go, I think it's Kumerow, who probably has a better chance of surviving on the PS. He will understand that as soon as there's an injury, he's coming up to the 53, and he probably is willing to accept that. Looking at the logjam at DE and at wideout makes me think that Addison really is at risk - the future of the Bills looks better with Kumerow and Stevenson and without Addison. The Bills won't miss Addison too much this season, and they'll want Kumerow and Stevenson in future seasons. I have confidence in the move to Haack. He punted 68 times last season, compared to Bojo's 41, and he had two touchbacks, compared to Bojo's seven. As with every other position on the team, the punter has to play as close to mistake free as possible, and seven touchbacks on 41 punts is far from mistake free. Forcing the opponents' kick returner to field a punt inside the 20 is a great play - possible turnover, possible block in the back, easy to cover and create good field position. Plus, if we're to believe what we heard, Bojo was a below average holder on place kicks. I agree about Davis. He might turn out to be the Bills' backup QB for ten years, a rich man's Barkley - smart, reasonably athletic, reliable. Turnover yesterday was classic for an inexperienced guy, but he'll learn. I think Fromm is a similar guy, but Davis is the better athlete. Thanks for some great analysis.

Thanks for this. Extrpolated, McKenzie has two more fumbles in a season. Not good. But it's a small samplen size, so it's certainly not conclusive. Roberts was better, but he is gone. McKenzie gets the job. He makes me nervous, in the same way Knox makes me nervous. I just don't think theyre as good as they need to be.

It seemed like he made 12 plays.

He clearly is improving as a receiver. But I don't care if he caught 100 punts in a row in practice. I don't trust him back there, and he gave me reason again today to distrust him. He is going to make the 53 and he is going to return punts. I will be reduced to praying. And in the 4th quarter of close games I won't be surprised to see Hyde back there. No good coach tolerates ball insecurity, and McDermott is a good coach.

Hodgins, McKenzie, Stevenson, Kumerow all are clearly ahead of him. Maybe even Lenoir. Hard to imagine that they're keeping Duke, too. This team is about building continuously for the future. Duke's not the future.

Yeah. I wanted it to work, but he hasn't produced. Had another chance today. He was billed as having great hands, but he couldn't pull in one today. This offense is about possession, long drives, efficiency, etc. That means receivers catch the ball. Duke hasn't shown he can do that consistently. No room for him.

I don't know anything about his career before he came to Buffalo. I know I've seen him muff multiple punts before today. He's returned only 16 punts in Buffalo, plus a few more in preseason. So, at least in my mind, he's muffed three out of 20 or 25.