Ayjent

Further evidence of the great decision making going on at OBD. You're closer to a fish taco than the Bills are to a good team.

Believing they haven't tried to rebuild the Offense through all of their moves is like telling yourself an incredibly bad looking preseason offense is just playing opossum until the regular season starts - and we know how that turns out.

The best Bills teams threw the ball all over the field for their day in the snow and cold and that was their advantage, a very good OL and very good skill players. A defense with some stars that could make some opportune plays, but not a shut down unit. Hmm. Do you think maybe they could give that another try sometime, other than the Chan Gailey era where they neglected the QB position in the draft and put all of their eggs into the Fitzmagic wagon? Now they have a defensive minded coach that has acquired most of the personnel for his D and somehow magically hoped a raw rookie from Wyoming and a 5th round pick from Pitt were good enough with a line that not only endured two huge losses, but also traded their other multi-year proven starter at the most important position on the OL. If you have to give up a proven LT to get an unproven QB when you just lost your starting LG and C, you might want to reconsider what you are doing. In a lot of ways the trades that looked like really good moves to acquire draft capital last year mirrored the playoff run that had Bills fans excited. This year the perplexing use of all of that draft capital and the need to acquire even more draft capital by getting rid of a game managing QB that really should be McD's soul mate (safe with the Ball and likes to run) and proven above average starter at LT to get two players that haven't proven a thing mirrors the s#!t show that is the 2018 Buffalo Bills. They gutted this offense and reshaped it as they saw fit. So far it sucks. Last year was buoyed by the holdovers - this year, well, it speaks for itself. I think what makes this even more frustrating is that you don't really even have much youth to watch develop on the O and say just give it time - Allen, Dawkins and Jones are what you can watch, but Allen is hurt, Jones has been disappointing, and Dawkins is playing okay, not great. What are we supposed to get excited about? Ray Ray McCloud? They've been missing with their Offensive moves - big time, and if you think they are going to magically turn it around this offseason, I love your optimism. I hope that they do, but I wouldn't bet on it. There is absolutely no evidence that they can do anything beyond identifying a decent back up RB.

That's the way I see it as well - they either get through the end of next year or canned in the middle of it. There is a lot of rationalizing of why they aren't good and how they'll be better next year with picks and cap room. Problem is that same group of rationalizing fans were the same people telling us how the guys on the roster could at the very least perform as well as last year's offense and saw us building on last year's success. Here is what will be telling in the offseason, how they go about trying to build a winner with heat ratcheting up on their tenure. Do they abandon the process and start going into win now at all costs mode or do they stay the course moving guys who have value and are getting older for draft capital? I saw a flawed method from the get go, and last year had me questioning myself and thinking wow maybe these guys are good at what they are doing, then this offseason happened and I think it all finally caught up with them. Sometimes you can get by on luck and goodwill from a necessary change at HC. That honeymoon ended and now we are seeing the gory details. They likely will improve, but it's going to be too little too late with a team that started with a lot of talent stripped down to one without much at all and in need of a coach. Problem is that no one is going to want to touch the Bills if a better opportunity presents itself - and then the Bills become the new Browns.

Fun fact - when asked about his team's execution, coach John McKay responded "I'm for it". Never will get that from McSerious

Shaw, You are a tough fan to break, but when you do - you let them have it. All too sad and too true. For the TLDR crowd - here is the synopsis: It's bad coaching of bad players making bad plays.

How do you know where I am? I am laughing...a lot. You seem to be the one upset by the comments and making a lot presumptions about where I am coming from or what I mean. I'm casually watching the games and the Bills have me about checked out on really caring about the results of the game, much less any play getting me excited or upset. I anticipated that this season would be trash and I expected the same last year too. Surprisingly it was a miracle run by the team, an opportunistic D, a close to the vest O, and a ton of lucky bounces last year. I don't expect much will change next year either, but we could all be pleasantly surprised. I don't like what they are doing as a franchise, but I'm willing to watch it unfold and hope that I'm wrong. I don't hate Nate, I just don't think he is cut out for the NFL, and there is nothing wrong with that. Guy is living a dream that many would love the chance to do. Just because it doesn't go your way doesn't mean it wasn't fun or you aren't thankful for the opportunity. I think Nate understands that from what I've seen.

Scapegoat? Nah, the QBs have been so brutal that Josh Allen looks like a stud and he wouldn't be starting on any other roster.

That's like saying having diarrhea is better than throwing up.

How many TDs were scored the other way in between those two TDs at the hands of Pick 6 Peterman? When you pass for more INT TDs than TDs it's an impressive feat.

From K-Gun to Pop Gun - the 20 year history of the modern Bills. The Bills have rarely been on the cutting edge since the best era in their NFL history, but the one time they were it was successful. They at least tried with Marrone, although he was a relic philosophically despite more modern run/pass options. McDermott may be a decent HC and DC if he did the bizarro McVay and brought in someone like Norv Turner or some other proven OC (hell even some young coach willing to turn the NFL conventions on their heads with carte blanche), but I don't think Beane or the offensive staff they have has any idea how to put together a competent offense and in today's NFL that is going to get you nowhere quick. I also think these guys are sold on themselves and don't think their vision will be anything but a success that just requires determination to see through. Daboll may have had crappy hands at the table everywhere he has gone in the NFL, but you only get so many chances and you've got to show you can do something with what you've got no matter how putrid. No signs of life here. I would have been getting Ivory into the passing game as much as possible with McCoy and Ivory in the backfield running routes and the ball with teams guessing where it was going even if it wasn't downfield passing - you at least start getting some mismatches with LBs and force the secondary up and into more zone. Take what you got and make it work as best you can. I don't see anything like that happening. It's them running their stuff and maybe mixing it up a little, but they have no identity aside from being really sad to watch.

Maybe just try something really creative and out of the box to see if it changes anything, because doing what they are doing isn't working. And they keep doing it.

I hear you loud and clear: QBs - Allen, Peterman, Anderson, Barkley (All McD & Beane) WRs - Benjamin, Jones, Holmes, Pryor, etc. (All McD & Beane) TEs - Clay (holdover), Croom (McD & Beane) RBs - McCoy (holdover), Ivory, Murphy, DiMarco (McD & Beane) OL - Mills, Groy, & Miller (holdovers), Dawkins, Bodine, Ducasse, Teller (McD & Beane) Guys that they let walk or Traded: QBs - Taylor WRs - Woods, Watkins, Goodwin TEs - O'Leary RBs - Gillislee OL - Glenn I'm not so mad about letting guys go, really, but you've got to have a good plan to replace those guys or identify guys that can do things to make your offense as effective. Woods is the one that hurts the most - a willing blocker, a good route runner, solid hands, and leader So they churned the hell out of the Offense and have have one bonafide legitimate starter for building the future (Dawkins). They have a huge question mark at QB that they better hope to hell turns out to be awesome. The 2nd round WR is underwhelming and may be an NFL talent, but is one that can be easily replaced by a street FA or journeyman FA. Defense has been decent job, but good luck with that offense.

I'm no fan of these guys other than McD's ability to get some overachieving results at times. Even then there are more stinkers than shockers....ummm...(insert the butt end of the joke here). However, I really think that they do get until next year and it makes sense to wait to see how they unfold their plan and if for no other reason, to see if Josh Allen is showing marked improvement. However, this has been really ugly and I think exploded in their faces way more than they let on and many people are rationalizing this as part of the plan. Keep telling yourself that, but they thought they were going to be somewhat better than last year and that Peterman would bring them some value if he could show out to be as capable of a QB as Taylor (parlaying it into another trade or valuable back up). They thought Zay would show improvement and that Benjamin would be healthy - a good 1 and 2 WR, and they thought they were set at RB and TE. They knew the OL would be a bit of an issue, but something that they could overcome. This is why they should be in more trouble than a lot of people think. Yes the cap situation and draft picks are going to be there to try to address issues, but if they fail to hit at a high percentage in the offseason - they are done midseason and don't make it out of the third year. Problem is that they may have created the same problem they just dug themselves out of, because I'm sensing that next year may change plans to a success or bust plan and not a building for the long term plan. Frankly, I've seen no sign that they know what they are doing on the Offensive side of the ball either in picking up personnel or playing to the strengths of their personnel. The best play they get out of Allen is when they use him as a RB frequently and that is just not sustainable nor anything different than the guy they just got rid of in the offseason.

All very good points. I think point 7 is really the biggest problem with the handling, regardless of McCarron trade. None of the 3 they had in camp were ideal day 1 starters with their experience and the talent surrounding them. There was a ton of overconfidence in their own abilities on display by the staff and FO to think what they put together would have even the slightest chance to be good. They are playing the rebuilding card now, but who makes the playoffs the year prior with the plan to start rebuilding afterwards focusing on the D when you have a hell of a time paying a good D to stay together and have no O to provide any compliment? Demolition of a roster is the easy part, let’s see how good they are. Every misstep will be magnified given how much they tore it down.

So what part of the organization is responsible for that and how do you fix it? Because it seems that this rationalization is generally shifting the blame from one obvious circumstance (failure to draft a good player at QB that is having success elsewhere) to another mysterious one (unstated failure of this organization to be stable for any young QB).

I think it is really fair to question whether they may have lost some vets because today looked like a team disinterested and disheartened when down 14-3, especially on D. The vets see what we see - a team that was ill prepared at the most important position. They, like many of us had hope in Allen and when he goes down and it becomes clear you are playing with Peterman or an older journeyman that hasn’t played in over a year. They were in late season, out of playoff contention form. We’ll see if they rebound next week and I assume they’ll give a better effort for a divisional home game, but if they don’t you could see things get weird and ugly over the next few weeks and all bets are off for McBean if players start openly questioning the process. That will make all of that cap space even more useless than it will already be (filling your team with high priced free agents was the mess they inherited right? So let’s do it again with guys not as good at evaluating pro personnel).

If you watched EJ in college he wasn't really anything to get excited about and was not a project - he was well coached, played many college games, and was exactly who he was in college - a guy that was wildly inconsistent with many different things that could drive a coach crazy (e.g., footwork, accuracy, not keeping his eyes down the field/not seeing things fast enough) but had been addressed year after year. He wasn't raw - he just wasn't very good. That's why he really never got better with experience - he was as ready as he was going to be when they started him. It was no surprise to me that people would get excited about his promise in a couple of games and then he would never deliver with consistency. It was a bad pick and bad scouting - they had so many opportunities in the drafts before and after to address the position with better prospects, and failed to. To me that is the Nix/Whaley legacy - they got talent on the team, but had no idea what they were doing with the QB position. This regime looks like they are about equal in QB talent evaluation, but early results suggest that they may even be worse, although they are certainly more focused on the position. Nix/Whaley loved drafting WRs, but none really materialized into top shelf talent. Now I think Allen is a rawer prospect than EJ, but he is also in a much worse situation with the lack of talent around him. But I also think this "raw" title is only appropriate for guys who haven't been playing QB for long or came from systems that were drastically different than pro Offenses - I don't think either really apply to Allen, and he has really not shown many flashes at all of putting things together. He is having a tough time making simple reads and throws, and his pocket presence leaves something to be desired. Not saying he can't improve, but he has a long way to go and the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

The premise is the same - he was available as a FA when the Bills were shopping for a QB and knew that they would be moving on from Tyrod. Bridgewater was a way more promising option than McCarron , because the biggest issue with Bridgewater was his injury not his play. You take the more talented option with more experience, even if the injury concern is there - where money is about equal. I'm really surprised that he was so cheap to begin with, and it would have been a perfect situation for both the Bills and Bridgewater because the Bills were getting rid of their starter and wanted to draft a franchise QB and keep Peterman, who would both not have enough experience to warrant them as the only QBs on the roster. McCarron was not a good option, and I never understood anyone getting excited about that signing - not really much in-game experience and not much to talk about when he did play. Maybe the Bills had their sights on Anderson for a long time, but this love affair with former Carolina personnel is a little overboard. They need to be able to assess pro personnel better than just relying who they knew from Carolina - that well will dry up and it's not like it's that great to begin with.

He was a free agent this summer, the Bills decided on McCarron rather than Bridgewater and the contracts weren't that different.

I thinks it’s a combination of the talent and coaching. I think they are substandard in both on Offense and pretty good in places with talent and have average coaching that can be pretty good at times on D. This is the standard issue uneven team that has plagued the Bills for years, they rarely have both units at a caliber that compliments consistent winning. I think the Bills were more talented last year and I don’t think Daboll is worse than Dennison, but their OL coach has not changed and neither have the results up front, they’ve gotten worse because of talent (talent this regime has had two years to address). So the coaching does matter, but these are run of the mill coaches that have their scheme and don’t coach to their personnel’s strengths. That is the hallmark of good coaching.

Shaw, Good post. What I'm most curious about is what the GM and Coaching staff realistically thought that they would be able to do with the personnel they had and through the decisions they made. I've heard people give their opinions on this board and take statements and come up with between the lines reasoning, e.g., they know they are rebuilding, they didn't expect to improve this year and are taking their medicine. While I don't know if that is the case this year, I do know that Beane and McDermott expressly addressed that stuff last year by telling us their larger plan, stay competitive while remaking the team. I wasn't a big fan of the moves they made last year before the season, but the results were way better than most of us expected. I honestly think they thought they were going to improve more this year, building off of last years success while churning the roster more to their liking. I think they underestimated the value of the QB position and the talent level they had at that position. The guys they chose to go forward with this year proves that. The same can be said of the WR and OL. I think they saw a stable situation for a young pair of QBs coming off of a playoff appearance and thought that they wouldn't be any worse than last year. I look at it this way, do you really ever want to get worse from one year to the next? Especially in year 2 of your tenure? You usually want an upward or even trend not a downward one. I don't know if we'll ever truly know what they expected, but I'm guessing the Pegulas do.

Free Agent signings from other teams usually mean you are getting the guys that the former team didn't think was worth the money of keeping around. Not always but a good percentage of the time. Moreover, in terms of spending money wisely, Free Agents are the worst bang for the buck and a significant part of the mess Beane/McDermott inherited with the cap. If you think they are going to avoid some of the same issues with potential dead cap issues, then you should set your expectations that they aren't going to be signing the best of bunch of FAs. Coveted guys want big guaranteed money. So the cap thing to me is really a bit of a red herring - it helps you have flexibility to spend money, but its not like the issues they just found their way out from under will be avoidable, it will just be their personnel and cap decisions that they are saddled with and not someone else's. The better way to spend money is to keep the young talent you drafted and covet, not much to worry about for at least a couple of years there, unless you think Benjamin is a keeper. They need to stock up in the draft and I really didn't understand the plan this year - draft your QB, but neglect the Offense around him, especially a failure to make sure you have a stable, proven option at QB (they still have that opportunity but have been curiously silent in trying to shore that up).

The other guy is much worse and I don't think there is anything to debate there. Honestly, they could find another guy that currently unsigned or on a practice squad to be a better No. 2 option in case Allen is struggling too much or gets injured. No one should want to see Peterman taking regular season snaps in a meaningful game. I don't think that they will pull the plug on Allen if he is struggling, because that isn't exactly a confidence builder. I see some traits that I'm not sure are that easy to coach out of some one. The main thing that bothers me about Allen is his pocket presence, including how long he holds the ball. His pocket presence is skittish and I've yet to see a QB prospect go from skittish to smooth in the pocket - the only guy that looked somewhat skittish and made good that I can think of is Rodgers, but he was nowhere near Allen's level of skittishness). That is really a natural feel thing because it is an instictive trait on what to do when danger arises to a large degree - sure you can work on getting the ball out with rhythm and getting better at reading defenses to overcome it, but defenses will sometimes confuse and then that's when these traits show up again. I was a little disappointed in the way he was so flustered and struggled to bounce back from what happened earlier, he didn't show much composure in forgetting the past and doing the best he could from that point on. However, the entire Offense looked that way so I won't put that all on Allen, but he does get the most touches on the ball and the offensive action goes through him so he has the biggest impact on the Offense.

Beat me to it. Same thought.