hondo in seattle

Yep. And I was encouraged. After yesterday's performance, I'm falling off the Orton bus.

For a while, Chan made Fitz look like a capable NFL QB. He made Spiller look like a Pro Bowl RB. He made Stevie look like a Pro Bowl WR. He made a weak OL look good. Good coaches get the best out of their people. Marrone/Hackett don't do that. Gailey did. So, yes, I'd bring him back as OC. Oops, just noticed C Biscuit making almost the very same point...

The last time I was in Buffalo I saw a sweatshirt reading "Just one before I die" and instantly bought it as it perfectly captured my feelings on this subject. I wore that shirt yesterday and wanted to burn it by the end of the game. I'm 55. With 32 teams in the NFL, the probability is the Bills will win one SB by the time I'm 87 (about the average life expectancy for a male in the US). But then probability says the Bills should have won a SB by now. They have not. And probability says the Bills should have won about half their games since their inception. They have not. The Bills have a tendency to confound probability in an unhappy way. Intellectually when you reflect on the careers of guys like Bill Belicheck (who was fired by the Browns), you have to realize that coaching staffs need time to mature and do their work. Emotionally however, under the circumstances, I get impatient. For example, I want Hackett fired now. I'm tired of waiting. P.S. Your fear is not irrational at all.

I've never felt more strongly that Hackett needs to be fired than I do right now after this debacle.

Let's not forget McKelvin is missing too. Kiko, Leodis, Marcell, Stephon... that's a lot of talent to be injured at the same time. Somehow Orton's stats don't look terrible but he was terrible to watch. The offensive line was even worse. The D didn't play it's best game today but I walked away blaming the offense.

Good point. We often blame Hackett and the offensive line - and rightly so IMHO - for our offensive woes. But when you watch our offensive linemen miss assignments, I'm not sure how Pat Morris escapes criticism. Our OL was horrific today and he's the guy paid to make sure they are not horrific. Morris has been an NFL OL coach since the 90s so he must know something. But it's not translating to the field very well this year.

I think Hackett has some authority but this is indeed Marrone's offense. And I think Hackett deserves blame because he's running Marrone's system (which he helped develop at Syracuse) to the very best of his ability. I don't think Hackett would be any better if he was granted more autonomy. If Marrone is pressured into firing Hackett, things will become interesting for Marrone. Right now, Marrone is running his offense through his protege who shares the same offensive philosophy. How well would Marrone handle an OC who was an independent thinker and wanted autonomy?

Yep. Let's hope Whaley is as good at his job as Brandon has been at his.

I'm too lazy to look but I wonder how long the AFC Playoff thread was last year? Compared to where we've been, it's nice to be borderline relevant.

I guess you and I are the only ones who don't know. Here's my best guess though: a "nine" is a streak on the standard WR route tree. I'm guessing a "stop-nine" is where a WR looks like he's going to streak but then stops.

Huh? We're going to trade a young QB who just might some day be good for an older QB with poor leadership skills who has proven he will never be good?

There might be something to this. Jerry must like being successful after 3 years of being labeled a bust. Sometimes players thrive in one environment and wither in another. For Jerry, that risk might change the calculus of the contract negotiations a little.

I just want to thank Bandit for starting this thread and join the chorus singing that this is TBD at it's very best. There's too much uneducated opinion and too many ad hominem attacks on internet boards for my taste. This thread, however, has educated me.

The idea that business comes before football isn't new. When Polian and Littman weren't getting along, who did Ralph fire?

While it's true that when an offense works well, the playmakers get the lion's share of the credit. But the corollary is not true that when an offense struggles, the OL gets all the blame. Usually the QB get's the greatest share of the criticism. The OC will get his share, too. Our OL is getting blamed because they deserve it. But EJ, Orton, Freddy, CJ, Hackett and the WRs have all been getting blamed this year too. Personally, I don't see the OL receiving an unfair share. And the way the OL should respond to the blame is by opening holes for our backs and keeping defenders off our QB.

Some really good discussions here but I don't understand why anyone is making assumptions about "propaganda" or "scapegoats." Obviously, every business is conscious of its reputation. The NFL is no different. What the public is told is always PR. That's not to say it's dishonest. In many cases, it's simply an edited version of the truth. And that's all I expect from Whaley and Marrone - a redacted version of reality. But PR doesn't preclude accountability. I'm sure Whaley holds Marrone accountable in ways we cannot see just like Marrone holds his coaches accountable and those coaches hold their players accountable. Whether they're holding the right people accountable in the right ways remains to be seen. Except it will mostly remain unseen. I really don't see any evidence that Marrone will create a scapegoat and I never heard him make Ike Hilliard into a scapegoat for all the problems we had last year. Leaders who assign their failures to scapegoats quickly lose their credibility and I hope Marrone doesn't play that game. My sense, based solely on the comments that get reported in the media, is that the players actually respect Marrone. Like the OP, though, I really do hope Marrone takes dramatic action to fix this offense. Clearly Marrone/Hackett have failed to create a really efficient passing attack (as the OP asserts) or an effective running attack. We're poor at sustaining drives, poor in the Red Zone, poor in general.

Orton is inconsistent with ball placement and certainly lacks mobility. But what if Adam Gase - the Broncos OC - was our OC? What if we had good guards? What if we had a potent running game? By most statistical measures, Orton is average, not actually terrible. If we fixed our other problems, Orton's productivity would be better.

I voted to stick with what we have and upgrade the OL because I don't think we can realistically hope for a FA QB much better than Orton. If we could land Brees, great, but it's not going to happen. I think we should draft a project QB in the middle rounds next year. I think we should draft a QB every year until we find one we can believe in. Hackett and others say that EJ has progressed a lot as Orton's understudy. Let's hope so. But let's not bet on it.

My bad. I thought he had overcome his gambling addiction by then. But he was still happy - so I still think Biscuit's assertion was false.

We all know why you are questioning CJ's vision. Yet Gailey got over 1,000 yards at 6 yards per carry from Spiller. If Gailey was smart enough to figure out how to use Spiller correctly, why aren't Marrone and Hackett? But since Marrone and Hackett probably won't be any smarter next year than this, maybe it is best to cut Spiller loose.

Victor Crenshaw at 121 Rosedale Lane in Thornton, Colorado, was very sad then Orton left. Btw, I think argument by hyperbole to be extremely persuasive.

If a HC can hire a good ST coach, good DC and good OC - and his GM gives him some on-field talent to work with - life is great. Remembering DJ, he had a good DC and a good ST coach. If he had just found an OC, he might still be the HC today. Marrone has a good DC. Crossman's ST units are better this year though I'm still reluctant to call him a good ST coach. OC is still a problem which is worrisome because while Hackett is the de jure OC, I think Marrone is the de facto OC. Nonetheless, I admit that these Bills have fight in them and are the best to wear the Bills colors in years.

Merrone, John... Here's the mug shot... Accused of multiple felonies.... Not sure why he'd be a HC of the Year candidate.... I'm guessing Bruce Arians has a better chance.

Both Dixon and CJ are averaging 4.2 yard per carry. FJ is at 3.9. Brown's "explosion" and "hard running" have earned him 3.5 ypc. None of the backs are gobbling up yards in big chunk behind this line running Hackett's plays.

I'd be super excited with a 10-6 record even if it doesn't get us into the playoffs. 9-7 is just a game above .500. But a 10-6 is clearly the record of a good team. 10-6 would be a great confidence booster for next year and could help attract FAs. Is it worse to go 10-6 and miss the playoffs? Or go 10-6, make the playoffs, but lose in the first round?