Thurman#1

It's the beginning of his SECOND year. Not his third, his second. Not the end. The beginning. The play almost certainly is to develop him. It would be better if he'd developed quickly. But he is a bit slow. And no we didn't know for sure in the draft how long he'd take. But we did draft a guy with virtually no experience in our system, so yeah, it was always more likely he'd take more time. Doesn't mean he won't become terrific. He might. Or might not. But he might.

Sure, watch comment, predict and complain. And sometimes go wildly overboard. Which is not unreasonable to point out.

729 offensive snaps in four years with three teams. Zero of them with Philly, two with Tampa and the rest with Cincy in 2019 to 2021. I don't know the guy at all, but this doesn't instill confidence

Smooth? Rashad. Smooth isn't necessary. Steve Smith sure wasn't smooth, just for one among very many. But it doesn't hurt a single bit.

Not a single in-season rep. This is way way way way too early to be making statements like this. Certainly seems possible. But plenty of guys with potential don't achieve it.

He does a lot to make them look great. And he also does a lot to make them look bad. The way he holds the ball would make any OL look bad and would end up with more pressures on any OL. Our OL has not been really good for a long time. They also haven't been as bad as many on here want to believe. Look again at Tompsett's tweet inside the very post you replied to. Tompsett knows his stuff. And this is some interesting news and IMO makes it a bit more likely Isabella ends up here.

A few of those in the top 51 might not make the roster. If so, they would likely be replaced by cheaper guys. The fewer of those chances to clear cap space are used this year, the better for the team's long-term cap viability.

The overall deal was horrible. But he's very affordable for any team trading for him. All but about $10M was signing bonus. Don't expect to see him here, though

Siran Neal, Wyatt Teller and Matt Milano. Three 5th rounders from this regime.

Take a listen. That's really not what Marino says this points to.

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on. It's in the first ten minutes. Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe: "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence." Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position. His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them." Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid. Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

As usual, and especially with people who say this often, what looks simple and is often loudly called simple is often complex and multi-faceted in real life. Stuff that fits a person's confirmation bias doesn't get the slightest real-world check in the brain, it's just bring out the pitchforks time. This thread is a pretty good example. Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on. It's in the first ten minutes. Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe: "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence." Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position. His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them." Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid. Marino also points out how terrific the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm.

No, it did not happen that way. I'm not arguing the time they gave him the extension. But it was a brilliant move by the Bills and worked that way right from minute one and more so as each game passed, particularly when they quickly moved him to LT making him radically undervalued. And no he didn't make the Pro Bowl in 2005, his first year to play on the line in his pro career (and college besides). He did have hiccups early but by the middle of the year he was one of the best. He didn't make the Pro Bowl because fans didn't know who he was yet. He was playing excellently and you didn't find anyone saying he wasn't. It was absolutely reported by an anonymous source that Peters was asking for $13M and Peters never disagreed. But that was when the Bills were said to be offering around $7M, and as each side made moves they bracketed in on $10M. And yeah, you're damn right Brandon thought he was a smart negotiator and contract giver after that second contract. In his first year on the line he was already extremely good. The next year he went to the Pro Bowl and in his third and fourth years on the line he was All-Pro ... all under Brandon's RT contract. If he'd had a Snidely Whiplash moustache, Brandon would have been twirling it. It looked team-friendly early and extremely team-friendly right from the moment that they switched him to LT. The evidence they didn't give him $10M is that it took the Eagles about two hours to work out the contract after the trade. Literally. The Eagles signed him al. And that the numbers that came out during negotiations were bracketed right in on $10M. $10M was the widespread guess all through the negotiations and was what he signed ffor in Philly. No, it can't be proved. Yes, it was by far the most likely way it went down and was reported as such at the time. There is a fair amount of evidence that the Bills wanted him back. None that they were willing to give him the $10M he wanted, especially that year. It was April when he was traded. If they were willing to give him that the same year the Eagles did why didn't they? Why didn't they ever come out and say, "That Eagles contract, we'd offered him that"?

If he is. It's questionable. Well, I'd disagree with that. He's looked plenty good at times. Certainly not very good at other times. Before the injury he had really started to improve. And by many reports he's had a good camp overall. Again, haven't seen the game as I figure out how to replace International Game Pass, but I'm certainly willing to believe it was bad.

Haven't even seen the game yet. But one bad preseason game against Watt? Not an important indicator. Again, I haven't seen it yet, but no, not time to hit the panic button. But now they need to be consistently watching. Cause for concern, yes.

Scott, a gentle hint: ... your own guesses are not inevitable. They are guesses. The fact that you use the word "inevitably" about a pure guess points to a serious flaw in your understanding about your ability, or rather inability, to know the future. You're guessing. That outcome you're calling inevitable is instead, in reality, possible. It's one of many possible outcomes. My guess is that it's the fourth most likely outcome, after he comes out by injury and he plays all year without injury, and they bring in an experienced journeyman. But that is a guess of mine. The difference being I am not silly enough to call my guess inevitable. Don't bother thanking me. Glad to do it.

No, this just didn't happen that way. The reason they gave him an extension a year early is that he was playing RT as one of the absolute best in the league. It was a damn good deal for the Bills and for Peters ... if he was playing RT. They switched him to LT. At LT it was a huge bargain for the Bills and Peters very rightfully felt undervalued very early in his contract. Now he was playing LT at an elite level, making him instantly underpaid. Most guys at least get a couple years really liking their deals because they're making good money for their position. Peters got much less. And he didn't say he wanted $8 - $10M. It got in the papers at the time (almost certainly leaked by the Bills) that he asked for $13M. But then as the Bills moved up from their offers, Parker brought his offer down. The offers were bracketed towards $10M. It's where he was always going. He was worth every penny of it and the Bills should have given it to him. There's zero evidence that they were going to give him the $10M he wanted. The Bills have said they wanted to sign him later but have never said they were going to give him that $10M. They most likely never wanted to. I've always figured that Russ Brandon was so proud of the move he made signing him to such an undervalued contract that he thought he was a master of contract hardball, a business genius. And that he'd teach these players who was in control. The Bills were the ones who pulled the stunt, giving him an RT contract and then expecting him to be happy on it as an elite LT.

Yeah, most likely. Sigh.

Some are indeed better. The fact that you think you're one of them - simultaneously calling a guy a bust with wildly inadequate information on top of your confirmed somewhat nutsy track record - affords me great amusement. Thanks for that, though. And thanks also for your chuckle-worthy take in this very post. "Teams don't draft players based on the evidence they see from college tape. They base their decision on 0 NFL games or starts." Classic. "Teams base their draft decisions on 0 NFL games or starts," you say? So their draft evaluations for every guy is the same, as they all 0 NFL games, and NFL games are the standard for drafting them? Genius!!! You're not one of them. Neither am I for that matter, but I don't pretend to be. Gunner and Logic, on the other hand are clearly among the best on here.

I'd argue that they did leverage the speed of McKenzie and Hines. Hines mostly as a KR and appeared to have spent a lot of his energy there. And McKenzie had by far his best seasons in Buffalo. Both solidly productive. Both used for their speed. Most of us had hoped for more in both cases, but do we know for sure there was a lot more meat on the bone for those guys in this system? Neither guy was used in the role they appear to want to use Isabella in. McKenzie didn't seem able to consistently make hay as a receiver. His niche appeared to be gadget guy. Isabella appears to be able to be used consistently in the pass game. Kyler hasn't had a ton of success with any slots that I can rememer, has he? I could be wrong but I can't remember him running up more than 400 odd yards with anybody, including Rondale Moore and Dortch. Josh is a guy who absolutely loves throwing to a good slot guy like the prime Beasley. Not that I'm saying Isabella is a sure thing or even that I'm sure he'll make the roster. I just think there's a better chance for him to make real contributions here than many in this discussion seem to think.

Glad you're satisfied with an argument as stupid as that one. 👍 Every team has bad games. That's a fact. Pretending that loss shows how good we are says far more about your judgment than it does about the Bills. You're talking about a team with a QB with an arm injury that was affecting his throwing, a team that saw one of their members die on the field, that had one of their teammates have a college-age brother die on the field, that had a home game turned to an away game at last minute, that had two blizzards produce multiple tragedies in the city and a racially motivated mass killer kill even more, that had three away games in closer succession than any other team in NFL history had ... and it goes on and on. They simply weren't playing up to their level. They said it at the time in case anyone was somehow unable to see it for themselves. Dumb argument. Nobody's satisfied with it. Pretty much everyone with half a brain understood it, even if it did hurt like hell for a long time afterwards.

This is not good for the Bills. I wish Brandon the best. VandeMark played pretty well at LT but I hear he was not good at RT. Quesenberry hasn't shown himself so far as being anywhere above replacement level from what I've seen. Perhaps even a bit below. So far, Brown has looked pretty good this camp overall, or so it has been written. If he gets injured, things don't look nearly as good without Shell.

Yes, tragic. Very much so. But no, the car turning into the path of another vehicle does not have the right of way and shouldn't make the turn if it will force a car going straight to be put into a dangerous situation where any sort of fast stop should be called for. Obviously if the car going straight is speeding, that changes things as it makes it much harder for the turning driver to decide what will be safe. If the driver going straight is not speeding, though, the car turning does not have the right of way and should not make that turn if it might cause an accident. And there's no evidence he was speeding from the little we've seen. I say that having made a left turn as a lad when I shouldn't have. Sounds like almost exactly the same situation as happened in this accident. It was my fault. I was thinking too much about the girl whose house I was headed towards, saw the lady heading towards me unable to stop in time only after I had entered the turn. I hit the gas and almost made it but not quite. And I was driving the family car. Sheer dumbness on my part. I'll never forget how forgiving my parents were, knowing it was my fault, making it clear that they knew I was to blame, but not completely losing it or holding onto their anger for very long.

Let's not pretend that number of guys still on the team is a good way to judge draft classes. It isn't. Is a class with one guy remaining on your team out of seven picks but that guy is a superstar better than a class with six guys remaining on your team out of seven picks with two borderline starters two STs guys and one second teamer and one third teamer? No, the idea's outright ridiculous. In any case, under Beane the Bills have drafted well. Not spectacularly, but solidly. And this year so far looks really good, although it's too early to say, as it generally is for the first three years or so when in question.

If you're a saintly man, an absolute paragon of zen-like acceptance of life, I can see this would be possible. For those who did not qualify for the top millionth of a percentage of humans, we would be angry to some degree. Their treatment of me would/should absolutely be a factor, of course. But when wronged, people get frustrated and angry. It's not the best of human characteristics, but it's pretty universal. People who have a few million dollars are not exempt from this human weakness. Take a look at Elon Musk, for example. Does he seem generally calm, zen-like and accepting of small grievances? I'd have to hear the details of the adoption part of the story, but I can imagine that causing great pain depending on circumstances and motives.