Thurman#1

With Star here, we'd have looked less small. It's one reason McDermott's D needs a guy like that in the middle. On offense, less so, IMO. Dawkins is 6'5" 320, Ford 6'3" 329 and Daryl Williams is 6'6" 330, all according to Pro Football Reference. Morse at 305 isn't small for a center. Agreed that Tre looked lost a few times. The whole team looked lost, really.

See, you're confusing your words there. He hasn't been objectively bad. That may be what you think, but that's precisely what makes it "subjective." If it was objective, absolutely nobody would disagree with you. And most of the world does, though the injury certainly has him playing more poorly than he did last year. Most of the world, including McDermott, Beane, Lorax, Jeremiah Sirles, and a host of people who know the situation an absolute ton better than you and I do completely disagree with you, and that does mean you're probably wrong. And yes, Beane has misses. They all do, what with that "being human" thing. But so far his percentage is a lot higher than most. That's why they're 4-1 and a possible Super Bowl contender, something we haven't seen in decades.

Enough with the Edmunds outside nonsense. One of the few things we have seen this year is that when Milano is out, this defense is noticeably worse. They should do all they possibly can to bring back Milano. Might not be able to with their current financial situation, but it it's possible it should be done.

Nope, not even close, dude. It isn't "a select few" who can't be convinced he's playing poorly. That's the huge majority and includes all the people who know much more than us. The select few are you folks who simply won't admit that an injury can (and it's happening right now in Tremaine's case) affect performance. And that while he was making mistakes his rookie year that he cleaned up most of them last year and was playing very well. Add Jeremiah Sirles in as yet another who knows far more than you and thinks you're just wrong: "I think he's hurt. I played against Tremaine, I practiced with him for a year and a half, and the kid's one of the most physical specimens that you've ever seen. And watching the way that he's approaching his contact, I mean even getting off blocks or instead of trying to thud an offensive lineman and shed the block, he's kind of backing up and trying to more finesse-move it. I think he's hurt. I don't know what's hurt, I don't know if it's a back, knee, shoulder, but I think there's something wrong because I do think he's one of the most diverse football players on the defensive side of the ball in the league, with the things he can do. I mean the range he can cover it so quickly, with the athletic ability and the physicality is everything you're looking for in a player and let's not forget he's 22 years old. I mean the kid's super-young still, he's still got a lot of development to go. But I do think that you need to get him healthy. But the problem is that if Milano's out AND Edmunds is out, you're really struggling, so I mean if Edmunds can go I agree that there's a certain piece of 'we need him on the field' but at the same time you've got to make sure that he's gonna be available down the stretch and that this isn't going to be something that just lingers all year and hampers his development. That's on this week's "The Shout Podcast." And he's not just throwing bouquets out there either, he's willing to say some things that aren't positive. Says he doesn't see explosiveness this year from Oliver and that he's not a guy who can be effective without that, for instance. It's pretty much everyone pointing out that you and your little select few are wrong.

Oh, nonsense. Like ILB and OLB are well-known to have totally different times to learn. Fine, Mike Singletary's first two years he wasn't even close to what he became. Steve Nelson took a long time to get going before becoming an excellent ILB. Lawrence Timmons became great in about his fourth year, putting the pass game together with the run. Hardy Nickerson took forever to get started. Pepper Johnson. London Fletcher didn't get much of what was going on around him early, then caught on to the run game but really didn't have the whole thing come together till lateish in his third year and you could argue it was a lot longer than that. Keith Brooking, one of my faves from back in the day, really saw it come together in his fourth year. And ILB is getting harder and more convoluted as time passes and they have to get more and more involved in more intricate areas of the pass game. Bart Scott didn't even start his first three years. Tedy Braschi didn't see it come together till his fourth year. So, that's just nonsense. And as for his "lack of improvement," he ... is ... injured. Seems to be pulling it back together a bit as the year goes on, though. Through the first two years though, pretty much everyone has him as improving. As a person who knows more than Lorax and McDermott among many others, you may not believe that. Your disbelief should concern any Bills fan just about not at all.

Fair enough, I guess. It's possible. I don't worry about that, myself, but I do find other things to worry about.

Thank God we've got somebody on here who knows so much more about football and about Tremaine Edmunds than do McDermott and Tremaine Edmunds, and knows phrases like "light switch for instincts" and uses them with total confidence. Sure, they see all the practices and know exactly how he's scored on every play ... but a guy like you doesn't need any of that to know way more than they do and Lorax does, and really everybody does. All those people who know far more than you, the fact that they disagree with you totally proves they're wrong. I completely get it.

Who says he risking getting hurt even more? Are you a doctor? If he is risking getting hurt even more, what are the odds? You're not a doctor, you don't know. Full disclosure, neither do I. But I do know football players play through pain pretty much every week. How much pain is acceptable is something they have to battle with and think about, a lot. But it's in their DNA to try. What's McD's thing? The greatest ability is availability? Something like that? We don't have the info they have, so I'm going with the team and Tremaine on this, myself. And as the videos seem to show, injured Tremaine is getting less crappy each week, so I'm not buying your theory. If it was "get him healthy" (rest) vs. "wallow in the middle" (play) you'd be right, IMO, but it's never that simple. Often reality can fall in the middle between those and playing can be some percentage of both. Lorax didn't need to say a thing. But he said he'll be fine. And that he's in the right position. I agree we need very good, and I hope it comes back again fast. The problems with the defense are complex. People want to pretend it's only one guy. It's not. It's the system and several guys and a lack of preseason time to work together and a whole lot of other stuff.

It's not legal. It's just that instead of game penalties the players can get fined. In any case, I'm alright with the guy if weed is his only problem but if he's at all expensive we likely won't be able to enter the pursuit.

There's a pretty well-established standard. You can judge a draft after three full years. Some guys are excellent week one. Others take the three years. And sometimes you'll miss out after three years because someone takes a leap after that. But that's the standard. Generally speaking you can figure three years to judge draft busts. Doesn't mean everyone should get that chance. Some guys just obviously stink, and when they get cut we know the coaches saw it too. But if they're still on the team, three years.

So, nobody is reporting that the Raiders have feelers out or that any other teams have heard anything? Just that some guy thinks that it could happen and that they could get something for him, though not much? Well, OK, I guess "... But if they do decide to make a move, one potential player that could garner interest around the league is wide receiver Zay Jones. With rookies Henry Ruggs III and Bryan Edwards, healing with early-season injuries, Jones has performed adequately in their absence. But with Nelson Agholor and Hunter Renfrow also playing well, Jones’ playing time is likely to shrink after the bye week. That is why Gary Davenport of Bleacher Report suggested Jones as a possible trade target before the deadline. Given his size, speed and experience, there is likely a market for him at a relatively low price. Teams such as the Eagles, Jets and the Packers would all make sense for the former second-round pick. Here is a snippet of Davenport’s thoughts on Jones and why he could be traded over the next few weeks: Beasley is less a quality three than a quality slot. IMO Jones would be our fifth-best guy without listing return qualifications or jet sweeps. If you include returns, Roberts would be close. Throw in jet sweeps and maybe McKenzie would be close too. Zay wasn't awful. But he certainly underperformed his draft status. I really had hopes for him but he just doesn't seem like he'll ever be much more than he is now. You hope I guy will be good by his fourth year. Zay instead appears serviceable.

I love it, "Lorax is an internet dude now," like this makes you and him equally knowledgeable. Two in a row in terms of giving perfect, textbook examples of what I described. The old "you're so naive, everybody knows he's lying except you, since we know he's lying because he disagreed with me" ploy. And it's flagrant, ridiculous nonsense. I'll tell you want everybody at this point knows - with the apparent exception of you - and that is that if your irons in the fire stop you from criticizing someone there are a million ways to act that are smarter and better in both the short and the long-term than to lie. Assuming that because he has an iron in the fire (questionable but possible) that he's lying is utter nonsense. Guys who are obvious team shills lose credibility, and fast. Their opinions are rapidly less sought after because they're predictable. And again, there are a million ways to avoid lying and keep your credibility. First, you can just not comment. Simplest thing in the world. But the easiest and most common thing to do if you must comment is to pick one of the infinite number of ways to play Crash Davis. "Tremaine Edmunds is a smart young man. I want him on my side in an alley fight anytime." Or "This guy gives 110% out there game in and game out." Or "The Bills should be proud to have such a fine representative on the field living up to the fine tradition of the blue, white and red." There's a million of them. Probably a billion. You don't have to say anything specific. When instead a guy makes a specific relevant comment - as Lorax does here - it should be believed. There are so many ways to avoid doing it that when they choose that direction, it means something. And when you refuse to believe him, what's spectacularly clear is that the guy not to be believed is the one out there doubting the experts. You're right about one thing. It's not even a point of discussion. When healthy, Edmunds has produced very well indeed. Again, you're correct that "extraordinary" would be an overstatement, but he's been a very solid producer, one of the three or so best players on a defense that was terrific the past two years.

Yup. The haters (it's a word I find kinda stupid, but Edmunds really does seem to have them) want to say that he should be ready. Fact is plenty of guys have made huge leaps during and after their third years. Lawrence Taylor sure wasn't Lawrence Taylor his first three years. He was very good (so is Edmunds when healthy), but he still had major improvements to make. Derrick Brooks was tackling people but still hadn't fully figured out pass defense till his late third and early fourth years. James Harrison, certainly, and there are plenty more. And before the nonsense starts, I'm not comparing Edmunds to them except in one way. They (and many others) prove that it's perfectly possible, in fact pretty common, for LBs to make major leaps later in their careers than Edmunds has yet reached.

100% agreed. It must have seemed like Bizarro World to the defense. "We've defensed three drives. We've allowed a total of 62 yards on those three drives, and we're down 14-7. Something's not right." I think that's fair enough. Edmunds is not extraordinary yet. So far just very very good when healthy. The problem appears to be that even hurt he's better than his healthy backup. That's why he's playing.

All things considered, yeah. If we had more cap money and Bortles had had the same time to prepare and learn the offense, I'd go Bottles. But we don't, and while he's NOT a starter in this league, Bottles is a pretty solid backup and will make a bit, IMO. Barkley's not bad, though.

Yeah, I'm hoping Feliciano makes a real difference. Their pass blocking has been pretty good. But the run blocking less so, to these eyes anyway. You may be right, but the media that were able to watch practices we couldn't see and they seem mostly to expect Feliciano to take over from Winters at RG. We'll see.

Well, you were half right. Thinking a video can show something about which there's not a single frame on the film .... the Bills D ... is a classic case of thinking from what you already believe rather than what the evidence shows. Perfect example of confirmation bias. The video did show a lot about the Bills offense, though. More confirmation bias. "I've been harping on it." So it's proven. No, the defense has been consistently excellent through McDermott's term. They've been thrashed a game or two each season? Hey, fair enough. But that's what happens. Go back and look at the '85 Bears. They allowed and 38 points to the Dolphins and 28 points to the 2-14 Bucs. Every team and unit has a bad game or two. It's just a function of variability. The rest of your post makes total sense, though. You're right that the current state of affairs is concerning. But so far, that's all it is.

There's not much out there. And if there were we have virtually no cap space to pay them. Don't expect big moves. A small one or two maybe.

Wait, a 4-1 team is pretty good? Hmm, I'll have to think about this. EDIT: OK, I thought about it. It's true. But we lost, so large amounts of the fanbase lose their minds and run around overreacting like chickens with heads cut off. The way of the world.

I think it's right that some changed. People often go by preconceptions. But it shouldn't have changed. Whenever that happened the response should have been the same ... "He should've caught it, but the throw was off. Both of them have a part of the responsibility."

I agree, with one correction. It wasn't crap field position three times. It was FOUR times. 1Q 13:29 - TEN drive start at BUF 16 (INT) 1Q 1:59 - TEN drive start at BUF 30 (PR) 3Q 3:05 - TEN drive start at BUF 12 (INT) 4Q 3:49 - TEN drive start at BUF 18 (Fum on KO) 28 points.

I love it when some internet dude explains how when an expert says something, because it disagrees with what the dude thinks, the expert must be saying the opposite of what he really means. And it always ends up with the dude summing up by saying, roughly, "See? He's saying 'Yes,' which clearly means 'no,' and when you look at it in this way, the expert's total disagreement with me clearly shows how right I am." It always says more about the internet dude than it does about the expert. Yeah, when you don't produce, fans will wonder. But for two years, Edmunds absolutely has produced. He's played MLB very well on a near-elite defense. He's played very very capably indeed. Yeah he's had problems with the shoulder injury, no question. And if that continues on and on, questions should be asked. But there's no particular reason to think it will in fact continue. God, the takes get awful here after bad games. All the "I know way better than McDermott" folks come out.

That's not how most players think. If they can play and it won't hurt them permanently they want to play. And in this case the coaches think that even a hurt Edmunds is better than his replacement, healthy. They're not concerned with helping fans judge things. And I don't think they're, even to the slightest degree, concerned with him being a potential bust. He was very good last year. No reason to think that he won't be that good or better when healthy, though as always other things affect outcomes in extremely complex systems like these. I don't know how many of you remember Ray Lewis' mid-career slump. He was pretty much the best in the league for seven or eight years, then suddenly he appeared pretty average for two or three years, then he was terrific again for pretty much the rest of his career. And it was so weird and coincidental that when big Tony Siragusa was in front of him, he was sensational, when Siragusa retired he was average and when they drafted Ngata he was instantly terrific again. Even good LBs have a terrible time filling holes that contain OLs coming straight at them.

Fair enough, really. Losing Star really hurt. They're doing a better job replacing him than they had been earlier in the season, but yeah, they had to sell out to stop the run this week, and it loosened us up considerably against the pass. But we will get Star back next year.That should help a lot. Wouldn't mind seeing them pick another big 'ol space eater to eventually replace Star and work his way in the platoons. IMO part of it is also that Harrison Phillips still isn't quite playing as well as he did before his injury. My guess is that we'll see him improve with time. Hope I'm right about that. The 1-tech is a major component of McDermott's scheme and right now the ones we have aren't keeping the LBs as clean as they were being kept the past couple of years. Interesting. Thanks.

"So if he was struggling would they give up 60 points?" you say? Congratulations, that may be the worst argument we've seen on here all year. Great point that if we imagine something being wrong that's not wrong that it might in that imaginary world make things worse. Irrelevant and off topic, but hey, who's perfect? And "the eyes" that tell us Edmunds is out of position ... are your eyes. And frankly, Lorenzo Alexander's eyes telling him something completely different pretty much means you're wrong here. When we have a choice between Lorenzo's eyes on Bills LB play, and yours, you're pretty much going to be wrong. Me too if I pretend I know more than Lorenzo does. But I don't.