The truth about Canadian health care

[Fewell733]

You consider a 3.8% profit margin obscene?

 

does that include their investment income?

[Fingon]

Can you explain where you got that number from? I am starting to get the feeling you are in over your head on this one fignon... or you work for an insurance company.

Over my head? I'm the only person in this thread using actual facts.

 

 

Experts estimate that the nation's $2 trillion annual health-care tab is one-third to one-half higher than need be, in part because of overuse of costly treatments and unnecessary care.

http://www.consumerreports.org/health/doct...ertreatment.htm

 

The CBO agrees with consumerreports as well.

[Fingon]

Why are you comparing the average for a nation to the average for a province?

Here, the average Canadian wait time is 9 hours:

 

http://kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=393503

 

does that include their investment income?

How is that relevant to the debate? For every $100 an insurance company pays out, they make $3.80. That's hardly obscene.

[Fewell733]

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

[Fewell733]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/opinion/...istof.html?_r=1

 

"the bottom line is that America’s health care system spends nearly twice as much per person as Canada’s. Yet our infant mortality rate is 40 percent higher than Canada’s, and American mothers are 57 percent more likely to die in childbirth than Canadian ones."

[Buftex]

Over my head? I'm the only person in this thread using actual facts.

 

 

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/health/doct...ertreatment.htm

 

The CBO agrees with consumerreports as well.

 

 

This is a very loose interpritation of the numbers. There are many things not taken into account.

 

The care a patient receives, can be directly affected by their insurance company. The insurance companies also have stipulations in their policy that make it near impossible for a health care facility to provide the best service, and also make it for the patient to get maximun coverge from their plan. Sure, doctors and nurses make mistakes, but they are making those mistakes based on what they think is best for the patient. Humans are not computers.

 

The insurance companies, basically use a formula, designed to inusre (if you will) that they will pay out as little as possible. That formula can vary from plan to plan, carrier to carrier.

 

Sorry, I have been dealing with putting together health insurance contracts for a University for the last two years... you are not going to convince me that the insurance companies don't hold the winning hand in the health care industry. Providers that have to deal with dozens, if not hundreds of health insurance plans, as if they are all the same, are forced to charge enormous prices for services, because insurances will only pay out a percentage, and the rest will be writtne off by the provider. Do you know, some American insurance companies can, and will, deny any coverage on a claim, based simply on the order which a provider lists multiple diagnosis on a health form? Tell me that is above board...the countless hours that go into correcting things, so that a claim form meets a given insurance companies formula is insane.

 

I applaud Texas governor Rick Perry (something I never thought I would do) for not buckling, recently, to the big insurance lobby to make in mandatory in the state of Texas, for health care providers to file claims with all insurance companies. It sucks for the consumers who have to file their own claims, but it also helps to keep prices down, in many places. Where I work, we are going ahead, as a courtesy, as if the bill had passed...but in reality, our costs are only going to rise because of it, and, so to, will the price to the patients, because of it. Uninsured patients will be under the gun more than ever....I am not happy about it...

 

It is disgusting what goes on.

[Alaska Darin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/opinion/...istof.html?_r=1

 

"the bottom line is that America’s health care system spends nearly twice as much per person as Canada’s. Yet our infant mortality rate is 40 percent higher than Canada’s, and American mothers are 57 percent more likely to die in childbirth than Canadian ones."

And why exactly is that? Is it because of the health care system or are there many other factors? That sounds like another scare tactic bent on getting us to move to another ridiculous government program that will cost a ton, not fix anything, and likely be worse than we have now.

[Fingon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/opinion/...istof.html?_r=1

 

"the bottom line is that America’s health care system spends nearly twice as much per person as Canada’s. Yet our infant mortality rate is 40 percent higher than Canada’s, and American mothers are 57 percent more likely to die in childbirth than Canadian ones."

Gee, maybe you should read testimony from the Congressional Budget Office

 

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/95xx/doc9567/07...e_Testimony.pdf

 

 

Or we can listen the "debunkings" of economic and procedural matters by a psychologist.

[Buftex]

And why exactly is that? Is it because of the health care system or are there many other factors? That sounds like another scare tactic bent on getting us to move to another ridiculous government program that will cost a ton, not fix anything, and likely be worse than we have now.

 

 

There are many other factors, but, I believe cost is right up there near the top of the list. It may be a scare tactic, but when you think about it, it is pretty scary.

[Fingon]

This is a very loose interpritation of the numbers. There are many things not taken into account.

 

The care a patient receives, can be directly affected by their insurance company. The insurance companies also have stipulations in their policy that make it near impossible for a health care facility to provide the best service, and also make it for the patient to get maximun coverge from their plan. Sure, doctors and nurses make mistakes, but they are making those mistakes based on what they think is best for the patient. Humans are not computers.

 

The insurance companies, basically use a formula, designed to inusre (if you will) that they will pay out as little as possible. That formula can vary from plan to plan, carrier to carrier.

 

Sorry, I have been dealing with putting together health insurance contracts for a University for the last two years... you are not going to convince me that the insurance companies don't hold the winning hand in the health care industry. Providers that have to deal with dozens, if not hundreds of health insurance plans, as if they are all the same, are forced to charge enormous prices for services, because insurances will only pay out a percentage, and the rest will be writtne off by the provider. Do you know, some American insurance companies can, and will, deny any coverage on a claim, based simply on the order which a provider lists multiple diagnosis on a health form? Tell me that is above board...the countless hours that go into correcting things, so that a claim form meets a given insurance companies formula is insane.

 

I applaud Texas governor Rick Perry (something I never thought I would do) for not buckling, recently, to the big insurance lobby to make in mandatory in the state of Texas, for health care providers to file claims with all insurance companies. It sucks for the consumers who have to file their own claims, but it also helps to keep prices down, in many places. Where I work, we are going ahead, as a courtesy, as if the bill had passed...but in reality, our costs are only going to rise because of it, and, so to, will the price to the patients, because of it. Uninsured patients will be under the gun more than ever....I am not happy about it...

 

It is disgusting what goes on.

You are thinking small time. Everything you just listed is a drop in the bucket. About $1 trillion is wasted every year because of the overuse and misuse of medical treatments. That is backed by numerous studies, and testimony by the Congressional Budget Office. Every day, people are given ineffective experimental treatments, given unnecessary MRIs, CAT scans, etc..

 

So while you may be sickened by insurance company practices, the fact remains that their profits only count for 3.8% of health care costs.

 

 

We could drastically reduce health care costs right now if doctors just used better judgment. Telling a terminally ill patient that they cannot receive an experimental treatment because of its cost is not a winning platform for a Congressman. Touting universal health care is.

[PromoTheRobot]

If government-offered health insurance is so awful, then why are insurance companies fighting tooth and nail? Logic would assume people would prefer private insurance if the can afford it. Seriously, what's the beef?

 

PTR

[Buftex]

You are thinking small time. Everything you just listed is a drop in the bucket. About $1 trillion is wasted every year because of the overuse and misuse of medical treatments. That is backed by numerous studies, and testimony by the Congressional Budget Office. Every day, people are given ineffective experimental treatments, given unnecessary MRIs, CAT scans, etc..

So while you may be sickened by insurance company practices, the fact remains that their profits only count for 3.8% of health care costs.

 

 

We could drastically reduce health care costs right now if doctors just used better judgment. Telling a terminally ill patient that they cannot receive an experimental treatment because of its cost is not a winning platform for a Congressman. Touting universal health care is.

 

You are missing my point, or maybe I am making it poorly...a lot of these unnecessary radiology procedures, etc, are required by the insurance, in order for other treatments to be covered...they are absolutely unnecessary, but required for any other treatments. And that comes from the insurance companies....

[Fingon]

If government-offered health insurance is so awful, then why are insurance companies fighting tooth and nail? Logic would assume people would prefer private insurance if the can afford it. Seriously, what's the beef?

 

PTR

Gee, I wonder why a company wouldn't want the entity that regulates them to be their competitor.

[Fingon]

You are missing my point, or maybe I am making it poorly...a lot of these unnecessary radiology procedures, etc, are required by the insurance, in order for other treatments to be covered...they are absolutely unnecessary, but required for any other treatments. And that comes from the insurance companies....

I never said insurance companies don't have some unethical practices, but the CBO puts the majority of the excessive tests on the doctors. You see, Doctors get paid by how many patients they see, tests they do, surgeries they perform, etc... The pay structure of physicians encourages such behavior.

 

 

However, with the ethics aside, you cannot blame the cost of health care on the insurance companies. They only make a 3.8% profit.

[Chef Jim]

My question is why are we going to spend $1 trill or more (I'm leaning toward the more) over the next 10 years to insure 15% of the population that is currently unisured? And how many of that 15% are illegal or just happen to be without insuranc because their temporarily out of work or they would just rather have a nice car and big screen than pay for the insurance? Seems like a shiitload of money for a very small minority. I think what they need to focus on is reducing the cost of insurance to make it more affordable than a complete overhaul of the system without even knowing if it is going to make things worse.

[gmac17]

some random thoughts

 

** 50 million americans may not have coverage, but I wonder how many americans really need some sort of care but can't get it. I bet the difference between those numbers is huge.

 

** I know someone who died while waiting 4 months for heart surgery in Canada. In the US they would have had the surgery asap.

 

** There is no easy solution to the problem. I went to a GI dr who went and had me undergo a 25 minute procedure to the tune of $13,000 on my insurance. His practice owned the testing facility, so you have to wonder how many people do they send to have $13,000 procedures who may really not need it, but who they said "just for good measure let's do some tests..."

[Fewell733]

My question is why are we going to spend $1 trill or more (I'm leaning toward the more) over the next 10 years to insure 15% of the population that is currently unisured? And how many of that 15% are illegal or just happen to be without insuranc because their temporarily out of work or they would just rather have a nice car and big screen than pay for the insurance? Seems like a shiitload of money for a very small minority. I think what they need to focus on is reducing the cost of insurance to make it more affordable than a complete overhaul of the system without even knowing if it is going to make things worse.

 

pretty sure illegal aliens are not tabulated into the figure. there are also about that same number of under-insured - people that have insurance but it isn't actually adequate for what they need ( I know I fall into the latter category as someone who relies on terrible student health insurance)

 

50 to 100 million people without adequate healthcare is not a small minority.

 

the price of a tv is not comparable to the yearly price of health insurance.

 

I agree though that the number one priority is that we need to lower insurance costs and a way to insure all americans that want coverage. I don't think we're seeing a major overhaul like a Canadian system anytime in the foreseeable future.

 

I'd be curious to see projections of just how much societal and economic damage is accrued by so many uninsured. How many people don't get treatment cause of cost and how much does that end up disrupting society when their condition gets worse as a result?

[ieatcrayonz]

 

 

The most shocking parts were that it takes 3 years on a waiting list to get a family doctor, and 4+ months to see a specialist (like a dermatologist.) Not to mention the waits in the emergency room, and for surgery.

 

Wow there have been a lot of passionate statements made in this thread, but if we go back to the beginning and analyze the initial post, it is really hard to draw any conclusions about the systems themselves.

 

How can you compare the American system to the Canadian? At first blush you would compare statistics and results of various types including medical and financial. That is overly simplistic and leaves out a lot of factors.

 

For one, Americans do much of the world's medical research. The costs of this are built into our numbers and skew them. I seriously doubt Canadain research labs are doing anything too expensive. Studying the impact of how many extra teeth get knocked out if your hockey puck is 2 degrees colder is neither expensive nor meaningful. It is not expensive because they can just keep pucks outside to make them colder and it is not meaningful because there are very few teeth there for the knocking out in the first place. Meanwhile, Americans are studying the makeup of humans gene by gene. It is a joke to compare costs.

 

The wait times in Canada on the other hand are probably overstated. Sure there is some waiting, but I'm sure a large part of that has to do with the patients. Three years to find a family doctor sounds unrealistic until you take into account how long it takes the average Canadian to fill out the form. Governments are known for long forms. Imagine the confusion.

 

Americans also have to worry about too many doctors going into lucrative fields like plastic surgery. Think of how many miillions were made from Michael Jackson alone. And he is only one person. Why remove kidney stones in an emergency room if you can make more money continuously adding and removing boobs? To be a plastic surgeon in Canada would be difficult due to citizens lack of resources and the sheer uphill battle. Can you imagine being a plastic surgeon in Canada and having any hope of ever completing a job even on a rich Canadian? Think of the work involved if Celine Dion, the ultimate Canadian sex symbol, walked into your office and said:

 

I want to look like an average American.

 

Where would you begin? Over time, how could you not becaome depressed?

 

If we going to look at changing our health care system, we should analyze the choices on their own merits. Comparisons like this are wasted time.

[Magox]

There are many other factors, but, I believe cost is right up there near the top of the list. It may be a scare tactic, but when you think about it, it is pretty scary.

It is a scare tactic. I have a couple canadian doctors as clients and they both hate their health care system, they basically say that their system is inefficient and that they are grossly underpaid.

[Chef Jim]

some random thoughts

 

** 50 million americans may not have coverage, but I wonder how many americans really need some sort of care but can't get it. I bet the difference between those numbers is huge.

 

** I know someone who died while waiting 4 months for heart surgery in Canada. In the US they would have had the surgery asap.

 

** There is no easy solution to the problem. I went to a GI dr who went and had me undergo a 25 minute procedure to the tune of $13,000 on my insurance. His practice owned the testing facility, so you have to wonder how many people do they send to have $13,000 procedures who may really not need it, but who they said "just for good measure let's do some tests..."

 

I used to go to a chiropracter and they charged me $25 per visit. We found out that my insurance covered my visits. As soon as he found out he started all these different "treatments" which meant sometimes instead of being there for five minutes it was five and a half. I would get the insurance statements in the mail and he was billing the insurance for hundreds of dollars for the "treatments." He also gave me a couple of pair of orthopedics for my shoes. They did wonders for my back but he charged the insurance company several hundred dollars for them. I got a letter from my insurance company and they wanted to know if the "treatments" were for an accident. All I had to do was sign on to a website and click if it was for an accident and if it wasn't my fault. If it was an accident that was not my fault I presumed they were going to try and get reimbursed from the other person's insurance.

 

I called them to tell them that it wasn't an accident and I felt my chiropracter was commiting some kind of insurance fraud. They didn't care to hear about that, they just wanted to know if they could pass the costs on to another carrier. That, my friends, is why health insurance in this country is so damn expensive.