Magox Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I am enjoying this to the fullest. Looks like a classic example of a simple mind that is easily amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 So falling out of favor, means that you must try to bring everyone else down to your level? Lucifer was an entity that did the same many years ago. Still does as a matter of fact. I am impervious to your Catholic Guilt and bogeymen. Believe what you want, why should I care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 You kiddin? Jesus is the ULTIMATE tall tale. Let's see, he... 1. Was born of a virgin, impregnated by a god 2. Walked on water 3. Cured the blind and the fatally diseased with a touch of the hand 4. Created food out of thin air and turned water into wine 5. Was executed but then RESURRECTED FROM THE FREAKIN DEAD (that's my favorite little myth) And those are just to name a few. That doesn't qualify as a tall tale? Jesus, to me, was essentially a kind-hearted cult leader whose message caught on. After all, we've heard the whole "Son of God" thing from other folks right? We just slap them with the crazy label, but Jesus was different right? He was divine. Suuuure. A message that caught on? Not giving him much credit are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Dear dear Jim: THAT is EXACTLY what the conservatives have created. They have laid claim to family values and Jesus Christ. That's why this for them is a conundrum. I think if you were to do a search you'd me stating on more than one occasion that "religion is stupid". But, since it is what it is out there, I am enjoying this to the fullest. That's one broad brush you paint with there. I think you could find quite a number of people who consider themselves conservative on this board alone that are not religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 That's one broad brush you paint with there. I think you could find quite a number of people who consider themselves conservative on this board alone that are not religious. There are plenty. Many of these people believe in letting markets prevail (free markets aren't conservative in the social or religious sense at all, by the way, as these people tend to place individual rights and the marketplace over values - which was original meaning of liberal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 There are plenty. Many of these people believe in letting markets prevail (free markets aren't conservative in the social or religious sense at all, by the way, as these people tend to place individual rights and the marketplace over values - which was original meaning of liberal). Oh man, why do you insist on ruining her daily delusion? Let her enjoy the acid trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Oh man, why do you insist on ruining her daily delusion? Let her enjoy the acid trip. whoopsy-daisy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Cut and paste is fun! Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth. -Jesus Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor. -Jesus Forgive our debtors. -Jesus Give to every one who begs from you. -Jesus The part where he said 'if you feel like it' may have been lost in translation somewhere. Incorrect. Again, there is no mention in those quotes - or in any of his quotes - where the role of the state was elucidated. Jesus, to paraphrase, said "you ought to financially help out the less fortunate whenever possible because they have intrinsic value too," not "you MUST financially help out the less fortunate or the Roman Empire will have you incarcerated for your insubordination." Jesus was a seminal political philosopher who helped lay the foundation for individual rights, but he predates the entire "socialism vs. laissez-faire capitalism" debate by about 1800 years. Gene, you seem to be espousing this false dichotomy where socialism equates to caring for others, while the free market is akin to "fu*k off, I'm in it only for myself." I would argue that the free market is morally and consequentially superior to socialism because its assistance for the destitute (via churches, Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc...) is completely voluntary and actually more efficient than what the state could ever provide (one of many examples: aid during Hurricane Katrina). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Oh man, why do you insist on ruining her daily delusion? Let her enjoy the acid trip. I think X just called you a liberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Incorrect. Again, there is no mention in those quotes - or in any of his quotes - where the role of the state was elucidated. Jesus, to paraphrase, said "you ought to financially help out the less fortunate whenever possible because they have intrinsic value too," not "you MUST financially help out the less fortunate or the Roman Empire will have you incarcerated for your insubordination." Jesus was a seminal political philosopher who helped lay the foundation for individual rights, but he predates the entire "socialism vs. laissez-faire capitalism" debate by about 1800 years. Gene, you seem to be espousing this false dichotomy where socialism equates to caring for others, while the free market is akin to "fu*k off, I'm in it only for myself." I would argue that the free market is morally and consequentially superior to socialism because its assistance for the destitute (via churches, Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc...) is completely voluntary and actually more efficient than what the state could ever provide (one of many examples: aid during Hurricane Katrina). Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites. The primary issues of Christian Liberalism were birthed when Jesus spoke the profoundly prophetic words found in Matthew 25: 31-46. These scriptures reveal God’s heart for the poor, the sick and other neglected people through out history. Christians should read this text and judge for themselves which of the two groups mentioned there more accurately reflect the political parties of today. His Liberalism lives on today and the issues have not changed much. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1019-24.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1019-24.htm With all due respect, what was the point of this post in relation to my argument with Gene Frenkle? I see nothing in that excerpt that would help classify JC's particular brand of liberalism, i.e. whether he was a classical liberal or a socialist liberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 As much as many here would like to deny it, Jesus was a Socialist. That's either an malicious lie or as ignorant as you get. By now I know it's the former. The pope issued a theological opinion on finances, something no Catholic is bound in conscience to follow as it does not relate to faith and morals on the level of doctrine. This is his theological opinion, and as such Catholics can freely disagree. The history of the Catholic Church was historically pro-monarchy private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Incorrect. Again, there is no mention in those quotes - or in any of his quotes - where the role of the state was elucidated. Jesus, to paraphrase, said "you ought to financially help out the less fortunate whenever possible because they have intrinsic value too," not "you MUST financially help out the less fortunate or the Roman Empire will have you incarcerated for your insubordination." Jesus was a seminal political philosopher who helped lay the foundation for individual rights, but he predates the entire "socialism vs. laissez-faire capitalism" debate by about 1800 years. Gene, you seem to be espousing this false dichotomy where socialism equates to caring for others, while the free market is akin to "fu*k off, I'm in it only for myself." I would argue that the free market is morally and consequentially superior to socialism because its assistance for the destitute (via churches, Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc...) is completely voluntary and actually more efficient than what the state could ever provide (one of many examples: aid during Hurricane Katrina). Actually, I think these quotes attributed to Jesus stand on their own and are not improved by your paraphrasing. Particularly "go, sell what you have, and give to the poor", "forgive our debtors" and "give to every one who begs from you". These are not qualified anywhere in the Bible. They are direct commands and speak to the relative importance that should be placed on personal wealth and gain vs. helping others. If you have more than others, give directly to them. I never claimed that Jesus played at politics. He was above all that schitt. His principles, however were clearly Socialist and Liberal with regards to what those terms mean in American politics today. If the free market system is so perfect and adequately cares for the destitute and those who cannot take care of themselves, then why are we even having this debate? Why the need to even debate the necessity of individual entitlement programs? Shouldn't the free market take care of it for us? The answer is that the free market is not a perfect system. You cannot count on human beings to be generous enough to get rid of the need for at least some government redistribution of wealth. Conservatism is a selfish philosophy and is all about looking out for number one. That and throwing the occasional table scrap to the odd pleb here and there and then letting everyone know how generous you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 That's either an malicious lie or as ignorant as you get. By now I know it's the former. The pope issued a theological opinion on finances, something no Catholic is bound in conscience to follow as it does not relate to faith and morals on the level of doctrine. This is his theological opinion, and as such Catholics can freely disagree. The history of the Catholic Church was historically pro-monarchy private property. I made no mention of the Pope or the Catholic Church in my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I am sorry. By saying "selfish" I wasn't deriding you or thinking less of you. We are all selfish one way or another in our thinking. For me it is kind of hard. I don't necessarily believe in the "religion," I believe in the social commentary. How does one attain a social conscience? No problem at all. What do you mean by a social conscience? Doing good in the community? Or just keeping your family on a even keel? For me, I think producing the best kids you can ensuring they can take care of themselves in life is the best thing you can do for the fabric of the community. But this kind of conversation is way too deep for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think X just called you a liberal. In the classical definition of the term, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 So falling out of favor, means that you must try to bring everyone else down to your level? Lucifer was an entity that did the same many years ago. Still does as a matter of fact. It's one thing to believe Jesus was real but Lucifer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 It's one thing to believe Jesus was real but Lucifer? That would be Mick Jagger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 That would be Mick Jagger. Pleased to meet you. If you believe, you believe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 That's either an malicious lie or as ignorant as you get. By now I know it's the former. The pope issued a theological opinion on finances, something no Catholic is bound in conscience to follow as it does not relate to faith and morals on the level of doctrine. This is his theological opinion, and as such Catholics can freely disagree. The history of the Catholic Church was historically pro-monarchy private property. It's only "malicious" if you've fallen for the GOP marketing campaign that liberal = bad and conservative = good. The Pope issued his statements and call to action based directly on faith and morals. And certainly Catholics can disagree. You can disagree with helping others less fortunate. You can disagree with taking care of the earth God gave us. And I can disagree on birth control and abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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