Beerball Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 If it's even possible, this has to make the families of the vicitims feel even worse. Their loved ones lives were put in incompetent hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 If it's even possible, this has to make the families of the vicitims feel even worse. Their loved ones lives were put in incompetent hands. I try and avoid regional operators as much as I can. They are just not as well trained as the piolts on the majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I try and avoid regional operators as much as I can. They are just not as well trained as the piolts on the majors. I think a lot of people, especially in the WNY area, are going to start doing the same due in large part to this tragedy. I know I already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I heard some of his last words were "Jesus Christ," and it immediately reminded me of an old Harry Chapin song titled "30,000 Pounds of Bananas," in which the driver of an 18-wheeler is hauling bananas down a steep road that goes into Scranton, PA when his breaks fail. Great lyrics from the great storyteller: His foot nudged the brakes to slow him down. But the pedal floored easy without a sound. He said "Christ!" It was funny how he had named the only man who could save him now. He was trapped inside a dead-end hellslide, riding on his fear-hunched back was every one of those yellow green. I'm telling you thirty thousand pounds of bananas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I don't really see how the fact that they're carrying on a conversation is that big of a deal. Yes, it's a rule, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen all the time. It's the comments pointing out their lack of any experience that is the huge issue here. It doesn't getting any more damning for the Colgan Air than that. I've always assumed these pilots have a good idea of exactly what they're doing, but I'm sure I'll think twice next winter when I fly home for Christmas. I'm sure I'll be dishing out the extra cash for a flight without a layover where there tends to be less of these regional carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I don't really see how the fact that they're carrying on a conversation is that big of a deal. Yes, it's a rule, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen all the time. It's the comments pointing out their lack of any experience that is the huge issue here. It doesn't getting any more damning for the Colgan Air than that. I've always assumed these pilots have a good idea of exactly what they're doing, but I'm sure I'll think twice next winter when I fly home for Christmas. I'm sure I'll be dishing out the extra cash for a flight without a layover where there tends to be less of these regional carriers. I agree with you. I am kind of surprised that this rule even exists. The whole conversation is eerie in light of what happened. As far as experience goes... is the solution to have people stay on as co-pilots for longer? I don't know. Inexperienced pilots have to get experience somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Here's another story link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30701012/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I try and avoid regional operators as much as I can. They are just not as well trained as the pilots on the majors. If only it were that easy - 3407 was a Continental flight. I'm sure most passengers had no idea the actual operator was Colgan Air. They also operate as US Airways Express and United Express. When I book a flight on Continental, US Airways, or United, I'm certainly under the impression I'm booking a flight with a major airline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 If only it were that easy - 3407 was a Continental flight. I'm sure most passengers had no idea the actual operator was Colgan Air. They also operate as US Airways Express and United Express. When I book a flight on Continental, US Airways, or United, I'm certainly under the impression I'm booking a flight with a major airline. you can tell if it's a regional by the flight number, typically a regional airline flies for a major under a 4 digit flt. number, usually something like 3xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx, and the aircraft is also an indicator if it is a regional carrier or not. the bigger aircraft that fly in and out of BUF are b737s, a319,320,321, b757, dc9, b717 etc... those are the aircraft flown by the majors. if you aren't sure and are a nervous person, just book a flight on southwest and call it a day. they do not have any regional feeder network and only fly b737s the biggest problem with regionals is the whole airline heirarchy scheme. the regional pilots are getting paid sh1t for wages (many make around 30k annual) and are always on the road and work crazy hours. they are more or less putting in their dues to accumulate pilot in command hours of turbine aircraft to work up to the majors. Many regional pilots are very good pilots, but they are in a difficult situation, not making much pay, not as knowledgeable and experienced etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 you can tell if it's a regional by the flight number, typically a regional airline flies for a major under a 4 digit flt. number, usually something like 3xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx, and the aircraft is also an indicator if it is a regional carrier or not. the bigger aircraft that fly in and out of BUF are b737s, a319,320,321, b757, dc9, b717 etc... those are the aircraft flown by the majors. if you aren't sure and are a nervous person, just book a flight on southwest and call it a day. they do not have any regional feeder network and only fly b737s I'm familiar with most of that but, again, if only it were that easy - almost all the majors have stopped flying the big jets into Buffalo since the big spike in jet fuel prices last year. They consider BuffTown a 'feeder' route and have subcontracted the route to regional operators like Colgan. I try to stay on JetBLue these days - newer fleet, no regional operators. Last time I flew to Boston I opted for US Airways to save a few bucks and, sure enough, it was a 'commuter' jet. As for flying SouthWorst, I can't fly them if they don't fly where I'm going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I'm familiar with most of that but, again, if only it were that easy - almost all the majors have stopped flying the big jets into Buffalo since the big spike in jet fuel prices last year. They consider BuffTown a 'feeder' route and have subcontracted the route to regional operators like Colgan. I try to stay on JetBLue these days - newer fleet, no regional operators. Last time I flew to Boston I opted for US Airways to save a few bucks and, sure enough, it was a 'commuter' jet. As for flying SouthWorst, I can't fly them if they don't fly where I'm going. I've flown Continental on most of my recent trips out of Buffalo, but I'll pay extra to connect through Cleveland instead of Newark, and to get on a jet instead of a turboprop. I want one of those puddle-jumpers, I might as well save the extra driving and fly out of Bradford instead. (And if you've ever landed on that mountaintop after circling while the ground crew chases the deer off the runway, you know how crazy that idea is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Sorry to say it, but that is what happens when one sub contracts... Standards slip. Why else would they be working under Colgan, and not Continental directly? Because of course, one can "skirt issues" and make things more profitable for the bigger company. It is all about "standards." Sources with knowledge of the National Transportation Safety Board investigation said the probe will show that the pilot, Capt. Marvin D. Renslow, and co-pilot, Rebecca Lynn Shaw, violated federal rules that require a "sterile cockpit" when a plane is flying below 10,000 feet. Renslow piloted the plane that crashed in Clarence on Feb. 12, killing 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I've flown Continental on most of my recent trips out of Buffalo, but I'll pay extra to connect through Cleveland instead of Newark, and to get on a jet instead of a turboprop. I want one of those puddle-jumpers, I might as well save the extra driving and fly out of Bradford instead. (And if you've ever landed on that mountaintop after circling while the ground crew chases the deer off the runway, you know how crazy that idea is.) Most of the time, it isn't the machine... It is the quality of the workforce. I see it all the time with safety and the towing outfits on the river... And gov't isn't without blame... Sometimes they (gov't) are breaking companies apart and forcing the sub contract hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 If only it were that easy - 3407 was a Continental flight. I'm sure most passengers had no idea the actual operator was Colgan Air. They also operate as US Airways Express and United Express. When I book a flight on Continental, US Airways, or United, I'm certainly under the impression I'm booking a flight with a major airline. Continental and Delta provide that information on their web sites. Others, I can't say. My wife flies quite a bit with Delta, and they go out of their way to make sure you know that delays are attributable to one of their contracted carriers, if that is the actual carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegtapr Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'd like them to start posting the test scores of pilots before I get on the plane. Christ, incompetence is the one thing I didn't think I had to worry about when flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon in Pasadena Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't really see how the fact that they're carrying on a conversation is that big of a deal. Yes, it's a rule, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen all the time. You don't see how the fact that idle chit-chat distracted the pilots to the point where they didn't even notice they were stalling their aircraft, and then proceeded to crash and kill everyone is "that big a deal" ? It's the comments pointing out their lack of any experience that is the huge issue here. It doesn't getting any more damning for the Colgan Air than that. I've always assumed these pilots have a good idea of exactly what they're doing, but I'm sure I'll think twice next winter when I fly home for Christmas. I'm sure I'll be dishing out the extra cash for a flight without a layover where there tends to be less of these regional carriers. Yes, pilot experience is paramount, and part of being an experienced pilot is knowing when it's OK to talk, and when to STFU and just fly the damned thing. Chatting in the middle of a trans-oceanic flight at 40,000 feet in clear weather is one thing. Chatting while trying to land a small aircraft in the middle of a !@#$ing blizzard in winter in Buffalo while the wings are icing is something entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I've flown Continental on most of my recent trips out of Buffalo, but I'll pay extra to connect through Cleveland instead of Newark, and to get on a jet instead of a turboprop. I want one of those puddle-jumpers, I might as well save the extra driving and fly out of Bradford instead. (And if you've ever landed on that mountaintop after circling while the ground crew chases the deer off the runway, you know how crazy that idea is.) yes true... i can appreciate that because ive picked hawk talons out of a jet compressor before... and let me tell you how good an engine smells after it sucks up and burns a bird.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'm familiar with most of that but, again, if only it were that easy - almost all the majors have stopped flying the big jets into Buffalo since the big spike in jet fuel prices last year. They consider BuffTown a 'feeder' route and have subcontracted the route to regional operators like Colgan. I try to stay on JetBLue these days - newer fleet, no regional operators. Last time I flew to Boston I opted for US Airways to save a few bucks and, sure enough, it was a 'commuter' jet. As for flying SouthWorst, I can't fly them if they don't fly where I'm going. not totally true.... (in no particular order) airtran, southwest, us air, jet blue, united, delta/northwest and continental (and possibly others) all fly full size jets into BUF hop on a jet blue embraer190 to BOS, thats what i would do.... cheap flights and tv's (on a non regional) are >* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 You know when the stall indicator goes off, they were supposed to nose down to pick up speed. Instead Renslow nosed up increasing the stall. But at their really low altitude, how could they dive to pick up speed? Not enough altitude IMO. All this means was once they started to stall, nothing was going to save the plane, they're screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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