Guest dog14787 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I think you are confusing what GM's value, with how much a QB contributes to a win. They are VERY different concepts. Your analysis, while flawed, may be a way to look at what the NFL values, by position. It doesn't look at what the position of QB contributes to football and certainly has nothing to do with what a particular QB contributes to his team's wins and losses. But, even if you decide to settle on the mundane "what does the NFL value", make sure you factor in the bench and ST players. A QB making $1 million that plays 10 plays on season was how valuable, exactly? How about punters and place kickers who contribute at a level FAR above their salaries (if you live in the real world), but would have to contribute equally to their salaries, in an analysis such as you propose. What about players who play their positions, and ST? Don't they confound their positional worth? Bottom line is, the reality doesn't lend itself to this sort of analysis. People are quirky and individuals make decisions in a way that can't be captured by this sort of analysis. Trust me...it's what I did for years. The QB is like the Queen in a Chess match. With her added power you can do almost anything, without her you become one dimensional, at the mercy of the defense to see you through as the opposing Queen attacks you from all directions, eating away at you, piece by piece, until you fall. The Holy Trent is my Queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 The QB is like the Queen in a Chess match. With her added power you can do almost anything, without her you become one dimensional, at the mercy of the defense to see you through as the opposing Queen attacks you from all directions, eating away at you, piece by piece, until you fall. The Holy Trent is my Queen Must resist the cheap and easy joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Must resist the cheap and easy joke... Yup, I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes, kinda reminds me of my "TE is just a baby thread" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Ryan Fitzpatrick would have to become a good player in order to be a Frank Reich. It's high time we ran Fitzpatrick outa town. Guy's been with the team 2 months, and hasn't done anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 It's high time we ran Fitzpatrick outa town. Guy's been with the team 2 months, and hasn't done anything. We should remember that Frank R was not a good starting QB when he left the Bills. He was also made to be a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 BTW, the CENTER touches the ball the most, so maybe he should get the W-L record. Yeah, and ours hikes it up his own ass. We need to give him credit for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 It's high time we ran Fitzpatrick outa town. Guy's been with the team 2 months, and hasn't done anything. Yup, he stinks, he's no good, at least players like Whitner are making the news, geeesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Here's where you are missing the boat, IMO. The Stanford team he was a part of SUCKED. He was, by far, the best thing about that team. The offensive line at Stanford was horrendous, and Trent regularly took a merciless beating. He injuries had almost everything to do with that offensive line. (In a way, it might have been a blessing, as he came to the Bills prepared to deal with a bad offensive line. He had to learn to get rid of the ball very quickly.) He was a very highly recruited QB coming out of high school. I don't know what schools he turned down, but I find it hard to believe Stanford had the best football program of the schools at his disposal. I think what others are saying is, if Trent had opted to go to a football factory, instead of a great school, he would have likely been involved with a much better program, and would have had been involved in many more wins, and probably taken fewer hits...hence might not be saddled with the "injury prone" label coming out of college. Nobody knows if that is true, of course, because he choose to go to Stanford. But let's not pretend that the school doesn't matter in the NFL draft, that the quality of the rest of the team isn't important in wins and losses and that a terrible offensive line can be a dangerous thing for a QB's health. EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Edwards I find it hard to believe that him going to another school would have changed his physical make up and less injury prone considering he has been injury prone from highschool through the pros...There are a plethora of QB's who take as many, if not more, hits than he did in his career who are injured FAR less. I live in CA, and I saw some of his games at Stanford and it wasnt like he was a tackling dummy out there. In fact he got knocked out of his senior year on a rush, not a sack. His senior year he had no 300 yard games...in fact, in ALL of college he had only 1 300 yard passing game. The only win Stanford had his senior year was when he was OUT hurt. I will give you the fact that his stats will be greatly affected by playing for Stanford and going up against Pac 10 powerhouses, I played in the Pac 10 and its no picnic. However, even against weak teams like San Jose, Navy, etc, he still couldnt lead his team to a win. He had only 9 wins in 3 seasons. So, considering he has not been very consistent in the pros YET, wasnt very good in college statistically, struggles to beat bad teams and generally does very poor against good teams (BOTH Pros and College), and he has been banged up just about every season of football he has played, on what assumption are you making that he would have been a first round pick at another school? I mean everything about Trent is based on potential because people assume he will put it togother based on their opinnion of his intelligence and pocket presence. He has potential for sure, not doubting that, but he hasn't lived up to it yet in college or the pros...so, don't you think its a bit of bold statement to say he would have been a #1 pick out a powerhouse? Honestly, he would have been the 2nd or 3rd QB at some powerhouses in college. He chose Stanford because he wanted a chance to start...look at the other schools that recruited him, no way he starts over the QB's there the year he would have came in...they are some of Colleges top QB's... Michigan - Henne ND - Quinn Florida - Leak Tenn - Ainge He chose Stanford for a chance to play...he would not have been a first round pick at any of the other 4 schools recruiting him, and wouldnt have even been drafted as he would have never seen the field...much like Cassel at USC was behind Leinart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadstroke Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 hahahahaha, come on C. Biscuit...he wasnt a first round pick because he DIDNT win a game his senior year and never had a single healthy season...it had nothing to do with Stanford... In fact, if he went to say UCLA or some other big football school and did NOT win a game like he did at Stanford his senior year, then he would not have even been drafted...the fact he played at Stanford which isnt known as a football power house allowed him to be not only be drafted but be drafted in the 3rd round... A goose egg at a football powerhouse and he would have said bye bye to the draft Talk about a dumb post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I find it hard to believe that him going to another school would have changed his physical make up and less injury prone considering he has been injury prone from highschool through the pros...There are a plethora of QB's who take as many, if not more, hits than he did in his career who are injured FAR less. I live in CA, and I saw some of his games at Stanford and it wasnt like he was a tackling dummy out there. In fact he got knocked out of his senior year on a rush, not a sack. His senior year he had no 300 yard games...in fact, in ALL of college he had only 1 300 yard passing game. The only win Stanford had his senior year was when he was OUT hurt. I will give you the fact that his stats will be greatly affected by playing for Stanford and going up against Pac 10 powerhouses, I played in the Pac 10 and its no picnic. However, even against weak teams like San Jose, Navy, etc, he still couldnt lead his team to a win. He had only 9 wins in 3 seasons. So, considering he has not been very consistent in the pros YET, wasnt very good in college statistically, struggles to beat bad teams and generally does very poor against good teams (BOTH Pros and College), and he has been banged up just about every season of football he has played, on what assumption are you making that he would have been a first round pick at another school? I mean everything about Trent is based on potential because people assume he will put it togother based on their opinnion of his intelligence and pocket presence. He has potential for sure, not doubting that, but he hasn't lived up to it yet in college or the pros...so, don't you think its a bit of bold statement to say he would have been a #1 pick out a powerhouse? Honestly, he would have been the 2nd or 3rd QB at some powerhouses in college. He chose Stanford because he wanted a chance to start...look at the other schools that recruited him, no way he starts over the QB's there the year he would have came in...they are some of Colleges top QB's... Michigan - Henne ND - Quinn Florida - Leak Tenn - Ainge He chose Stanford for a chance to play...he would not have been a first round pick at any of the other 4 schools recruiting him, and wouldnt have even been drafted as he would have never seen the field...much like Cassel at USC was behind Leinart. Great post. I think Ainge is the only one he beats out on that list. He would have had even more struggles on Tenn., IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Trent has the makings of a top 10 QB in the NFL. Let him play and he'll get there.I just wish the team signed a veteran backup who has won NFL games, one that Trent can actually learn from, rather than a Ryan Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick is a smart guy. That's worth something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Fitzpatrick is a smart guy. That's worth something. He's done nothing for the Bills. Get rid of him, I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Great post. I think Ainge is the only one he beats out on that list. He would have had even more struggles on Tenn., IMO. Of course you would pushpile. Edwards was ranked as the #1 pro-style quarterback by USA Today in 2001. Rivals rated Edwards as the #2 pro-style quarterback . Student Sports ranked him as the No. 2 quarterback prospect in the nation ... He was named an All-American by SuperPrep, PrepStar, Parade, Student Sports and Tom Lemming's Report, to name a few ... Member of the PrepStar's "Dream Team" and the Student Sports Top 101 ... Parade ranked him the No. 3 quarterback in the country, PrepStar ranked Trent the No. 4 QB in the nation. In his junior and senior seasons at Los Gatos HS, he led the team to a 26-0 record. Henne, Ainge, Leak and Quinn, these guys are sure ripping it up now. No but you guys are right, he couldn't beat out those guys in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Of course you would pushpile. Edwards was ranked as the #1 pro-style quarterback by USA Today in 2001. Rivals rated Edwards as the #2 pro-style quarterback . Student Sports ranked him as the No. 2 quarterback prospect in the nation ... He was named an All-American by SuperPrep, PrepStar, Parade, Student Sports and Tom Lemming's Report, to name a few ... Member of the PrepStar's "Dream Team" and the Student Sports Top 101 ... Parade ranked him the No. 3 quarterback in the country, PrepStar ranked Trent the No. 4 QB in the nation. In his junior and senior seasons at Los Gatos HS, he led the team to a 26-0 record. Henne, Ainge, Leak and Quinn, these guys are sure ripping it up now. No but you guys are right, he couldn't beat out those guys in college. You can throw away your high school rankings Magox. Your absolutely crazy if you think Edwards beats out Quinn at Notre Dame. Brady Quinn owned that school and has been the golden boy since, no chance. Trent Edwards is a better Qb than Leak but doesn't come close to fitting the Florida Qb criteria. They spread it out and rely on Qb mobility, sorry but again no chance for Edwards. As far as Henne goes, only you could make an argument. Henne had a decent career at Michigan and was loved by his teammates and coaching staff. Henne holds the school record for yards, Tds, and completions. He is second all-time in the conference for Tds. I'll say Trent sits there too. So like I said, I think Trent only beats out Ainge. Unless, maybe you have some pertinent pop warner stats I haven't seen. Where was Edwards ranked nationally in junior high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 You can throw away your high school rankings Magox. Your absolutely crazy if you think Edwards beats out Quinn at Notre Dame. Brady Quinn owned that school and has been the golden boy since, no chance. Trent Edwards is a better Qb than Leak but doesn't come close to fitting the Florida Qb criteria. They spread it out and rely on Qb mobility, sorry but again no chance for Edwards. As far as Henne goes, only you could make an argument. Henne had a decent career at Michigan and was loved by his teammates and coaching staff. Henne holds the school record for yards, Tds, and completions. He is second all-time in the conference for Tds. I'll say Trent sits there too. So like I said, I think Trent only beats out Ainge. Unless, maybe you have some pertinent pop warner stats I haven't seen. Where was Edwards ranked nationally in junior high? it went right over your head didn't it? here let me break it down for you, since you weren't able to figure it out the first time around. the reason why I brought up that he was considered one of the top High School QB's by just about every ranking, was: now get ready pushpile, He could of played anywhere and if given the opportunity, He could of very well of beat out any of those prospects. Maybe Quinn would of been tough because of all the hype surrounding him, but there is every reason to think that he could of beaten the rest out. now if you want to discount highschool prospect player rankings, and believe that it doesn't impact on whether or not they get an opportunity to play at the next level (college), specially if you were USA Today #1 Ranked pro-style QB, Then you are really more naive than I thought you were. and what stats did I bring up? other than wins losses oops, I forgot, you don't value that stat Come on Pushpile, you can do better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizell Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 eh all this high school rankings stuff is great and all but brock berlin was the #1 player in the usa in 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 eh all this high school rankings stuff is great and all but brock berlin was the #1 player in the usa in 2000 it went right over your head too didn't it? see my post up above, and this time read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Consider the source (i.e. he-who-was Holcomb's Arm). Misusing statistical analysis is his forte. I'd debate with you, but it's clearly not worth my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Come again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess HA/EA had some pretty weak stats professors. +2.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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