Alphadawg7 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Relax dude. Believe it or not, it's okay for people to think that Cutler is better than Edwards. In fact, most of the breathing, football-watching world thinks that Cutler is better than Edwards. Most of us watched Cutler light it up last season in Denver, while Edwards struggled mightily down the stretch, and played his worst football against the teams he needs to play the best against--his own division. Another major reason people doubt Edwards' ability is that he only plays well against horrible defenses. That's not even a debatable point, it's a statistic. Just because people don't believe Edwards is better than Cutler doesn't mean they're not fans. I am a rabid Bills supporter and have had season tickets for 21 of my 28 years on this Earth, but I don't think Edwards is very good (of course, at this point, I'm obligated to point out that I don't like JP Losman either, since I'm sure I'll be labled a "fanboy", whatever that means). It's fine to be positive about the team, and it's cool that you see Edwards' performances through rose-colored goggles. You just can't expect everyone to agree with you, and the fact that some of us don't doesn't make us "brain dead". Trent isn't taking a "mountain of crap", he's being evaluated based on his play. The team went 7-7 in games he started and the opponents were as follows: Opponent Def. Ranking Seattle 30 Jacksonville 17 Oakland 27 St. Louis 28 San Diego 25 Kansas City 31 Denver 29 Contrast that against the teams Buffalo was defeated by when Edwards started: Opponent Def. Ranking Miami 15 Arizona 19 NY Jets 16 New England 10 San Francisco 13 Cleveland 26 All some of us are asking is that the guy play well against a decent defense. It's not being negative dude, it's being analytical. Great post... My other issue with him is that he had a 50 QB rating in the first quarter last year and was amongst worst rated passers in the first half of games in all of the NFL which puts us in a hole every game. He is also one of the worst rated passers in close games where we trail...so for all of those "he is so clutch" nonsense because of his so called 4th quarter rating, you need to look again. What they dont see is that Trent has actually been very bad in close games we are trying to win and atrocious in games we MUST win...they use the 4th qtr rating as a mirage to make it look like he is clutch. But, speaking as a former defensive player, if you look at the importat info that determines if he is truly good in the clutch, you will find he has been far from it. Doesnt mean he cant get better, but Trent being "clutch" thus far is just not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 You would never know this is a forum for Bills fans. Let's take our kid and rip him to shreds!! Yea!! Cutler's way better, Trent sucks, blah, blah, blah...After all,. our guy has had 2 whole years, on a bad team, with inept coaching, to lead us to the playoffs! He CAN'T WIN! (12-11). He CAN'T PLAY IN THE COLD!! (beat Denver in 17 degrees, led 4th qtr comeback w/ a great pass to Freddy J). He WEARS GLOVES!! (so does Kurt Warner, in AZ!). You negative nancy's make me sick. All valid points. But you've got to understand posters like Alpha are on a personal crusade to bash Edwards because after 23 career starts he's not an All-Pro. To them, QB play is solely responsible for all the faults on this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 All valid points. But you've got to understand posters like Alpha are on a personal crusade to bash Edwards because after 23 career starts he's not an All-Pro. To them, QB play is solely responsible for all the faults on this team. As a veteran Bills fan, you should be able to recognize average to below average QB play. The All-Pro analogy is cute, but I'm just hoping he puts the ball in the endzone alot more. The Qb is not soley responsible for all the faults of the team but he is by far the most responsible. He has 23 career starts and was regressing in the second half of last season. You don't have to put blinders on when you root for somebody. I've cheered for him every snap and I'll be the first to tell you he needs to get better or he's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 As a veteran Bills fan, you should be able to recognize average to below average QB play. The All-Pro analogy is cute, but I'm just hoping he puts the ball in the endzone alot more. The Qb is not soley responsible for all the faults of the team but he is by far the most responsible. He has 23 career starts and was regressing in the second half of last season. You don't have to put blinders on when you root for somebody. I've cheered for him every snap and I'll be the first to tell you he needs to get better or he's done. If we fail this coming up season it's not because of Trent Edwards and its the coaching staff that's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeJuiceSimpson Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I completely forgot that Cutler and Edwards were the only two players on the field that game. Silly me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 That was my point. Denver had to win the game to clinch a playoff spot, and the Bills went in and beat the Broncos. Under the leadership of Dick Jauron. Corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 As a veteran Bills fan, you should be able to recognize average to below average QB play. The All-Pro analogy is cute, but I'm just hoping he puts the ball in the endzone alot more. The Qb is not soley responsible for all the faults of the team but he is by far the most responsible. He has 23 career starts and was regressing in the second half of last season. You don't have to put blinders on when you root for somebody. I've cheered for him every snap and I'll be the first to tell you he needs to get better or he's done. I'll be the first one to say Edwards struggled, many times against the 3-4 defense in the second half. And while his play left something to be desired, he wasn't getting any help from the coaching staff. Aside from the KC game, Buffalo's offensive game plan featured little aggressiveness or ability to adjust. Those 3-4 defenses always seemed to confuse Buffalo. Over the past 3 seasons, I've rarely seen many pass plays called into the EZ. In the RZ, I've rarely seen the go for the throat mentality. It was on display at home against Seattle, but after that it disappeared. The one constant to all of this is DJ. Despite a change at OC, it's clear that aggressive play-calling is not on display. Predictability is their watchword, and something every DJ has a big share of. The idea that he get better or is done is downright laughable. He's heading into his second season of starting. If he gets the time to throw, and is trusted by TS and DJ to do so, then he should be throwing for 3500 and 20 TD's. If he doesn't, his NFL career ain't over. The QB position can take 3-4 years before a guy is capable of playing well. Philip Rivers and Drew Brees come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 As a veteran Bills fan, you should be able to recognize average to below average QB play. The All-Pro analogy is cute, but I'm just hoping he puts the ball in the endzone alot more. The Qb is not soley responsible for all the faults of the team but he is by far the most responsible. He has 23 career starts and was regressing in the second half of last season. You don't have to put blinders on when you root for somebody. I've cheered for him every snap and I'll be the first to tell you he needs to get better or he's done. Once again I completely agree... Not having blinders on to what has occured on the field makes you a hater...funny is, most of these people are the same people who literally BASHED Losman for the same things. I love how they get all over me and others who talk about the issues and areas Trent has not been good and needs to improve. I have never bashed him, not once...never called him names...just talked about factual on field play thus far... And you hit the nail on the head...he regressed...I fully expect a young QB to struggle, but the kid has regressed, been atrocious in key divisional games, and has more turnovers than TD's. When he has been good, he has been more average than good. When he has been bad, he has been atrocious, and he has more bad games than good on his resume. But, aknowledging that makes you a hater. Funny, I pull for him every week and wore his jersey every game last year and will again this year...I want him to win, I want him to get better. And the reason it seems I am bashing him, is because I am always sucked in by threads that are as DUMB as what the OP wrote to start this thread. People claiming he has been better than Cutler or Brees because of record and all the other outlandish boast about him people write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Once again I completely agree... Not having blinders on to what has occured on the field makes you a hater...funny is, most of these people are the same people who literally BASHED Losman for the same things. I love how they get all over me and others who talk about the issues and areas Trent has not been good and needs to improve. I have never bashed him, not once...never called him names...just talked about factual on field play thus far... And you hit the nail on the head...he regressed...I fully expect a young QB to struggle, but the kid has regressed, been atrocious in key divisional games, and has more turnovers than TD's. When he has been good, he has been more average than good. When he has been bad, he has been atrocious, and he has more bad games than good on his resume. But, aknowledging that makes you a hater. Funny, I pull for him every week and wore his jersey every game last year and will again this year...I want him to win, I want him to get better. And the reason it seems I am bashing him, is because I am always sucked in by threads that are as DUMB as what the OP wrote to start this thread. People claiming he has been better than Cutler or Brees because of record and all the other outlandish boast about him people write. Its good to have different opinions, but like I posted earlier in the thread Tent Edwards finished with a QB rating over 85 for the season and his completion percentage was the highest in the league. Now that might not sound like much of an accomplishment to you, but when you consider our coaching staff sucks, no TE to speak of, and only one WR that posed a threat, a smallish one at that and it makes what Trent Edwards accomplished last season a big step forward for him and for the Buffalo Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I'll be the first one to say Edwards struggled, many times against the 3-4 defense in the second half. And while his play left something to be desired, he wasn't getting any help from the coaching staff. Aside from the KC game, Buffalo's offensive game plan featured little aggressiveness or ability to adjust. Those 3-4 defenses always seemed to confuse Buffalo. Over the past 3 seasons, I've rarely seen many pass plays called into the EZ. In the RZ, I've rarely seen the go for the throat mentality. It was on display at home against Seattle, but after that it disappeared. The one constant to all of this is DJ. Despite a change at OC, it's clear that aggressive play-calling is not on display. Predictability is their watchword, and something every DJ has a big share of. The idea that he get better or is done is downright laughable. He's heading into his second season of starting. If he gets the time to throw, and is trusted by TS and DJ to do so, then he should be throwing for 3500 and 20 TD's. If he doesn't, his NFL career ain't over. The QB position can take 3-4 years before a guy is capable of playing well. Philip Rivers and Drew Brees come to mind. Good post as usual, I like your insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cale Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Relax dude. Believe it or not, it's okay for people to think that Cutler is better than Edwards. In fact, most of the breathing, football-watching world thinks that Cutler is better than Edwards. Most of us watched Cutler light it up last season in Denver, while Edwards struggled mightily down the stretch, and played his worst football against the teams he needs to play the best against--his own division. Another major reason people doubt Edwards' ability is that he only plays well against horrible defenses. That's not even a debatable point, it's a statistic. Just because people don't believe Edwards is better than Cutler doesn't mean they're not fans. I am a rabid Bills supporter and have had season tickets for 21 of my 28 years on this Earth, but I don't think Edwards is very good (of course, at this point, I'm obligated to point out that I don't like JP Losman either, since I'm sure I'll be labled a "fanboy", whatever that means). It's fine to be positive about the team, and it's cool that you see Edwards' performances through rose-colored goggles. You just can't expect everyone to agree with you, and the fact that some of us don't doesn't make us "brain dead". Trent isn't taking a "mountain of crap", he's being evaluated based on his play. The team went 7-7 in games he started and the opponents were as follows: Opponent Def. Ranking Seattle 30 Jacksonville 17 Oakland 27 St. Louis 28 San Diego 25 Kansas City 31 Denver 29 Contrast that against the teams Buffalo was defeated by when Edwards started: Opponent Def. Ranking Miami 15 Arizona 19 NY Jets 16 New England 10 San Francisco 13 Cleveland 26 All some of us are asking is that the guy play well against a decent defense. It's not being negative dude, it's being analytical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Its good to have different opinions, but like I posted earlier in the thread Tent Edwards finished with a QB rating over 85 for the season and his completion percentage was the highest in the league. Now that might not sound like much of an accomplishment to you, but when you consider our coaching staff sucks, no TE to speak of, and only one WR that posed a threat, a smallish one at that and it makes what Trent Edwards accomplished last season a big step forward for him and for the Buffalo Bills. It's very easy to sit back and blame everything on a coaching staff. I've heard it all on this board. DJ and his staff are the reason Hardy didn't look good last year. DJ and his staff would have ruined Cutler's career. DJ and his staff are the reason Edwards regressed last year. DJ and his staff aren't getting the most out of Poz, Lynch, Jackson, and Evans. DJ and his staff routinely cost the Bills wins. DJ and his staff aren't going to use TO correctly. DJ and his staff are going to destroy whatever rookies we draft. DJ and his staff don't know how to draft. I can understand having criticism of the guy and some of his calls, but you make it seem like every call he makes is wrong. Trent Edward's play falls directly on his shoulders. Given his supporting cast, I would still say he performed poorly. If you want to see young QBs who are going in the right direction check out Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, and even Jamrcus Russell is improving. Russell's season last year is comparable to Edwards and he was playing his best at the end of the season. Tyler Thigpen plays in an arguably worse situation and he played far better. Kyle Orton isn't a franchise Qb and he outplayed Edwards in a worse situation. If Jauron was really as bad as everyone here says, the players wouldn't publicly embrace him like they do. If the guy was ruining careers and hurting the team, vets wouldn't be coming out and saying he's our guy. Some posters make the argument that he lets them do what they want and practices inside, so thats why he gets support. This is such a lame excuse. NFL players care about their money, stats, and winning, in that order. I highly doubt practicing indoors is more important. They must feel confident that Jauron is not the reason their production is subpar. A Bills fan's worst nightmare is we don't have our Qb yet. It's much easier to jump on the bandwagon that blames everybody else. If his name was Losman and he was drafted in the first round, this board would be singing a much different tune. I have said before he deserves another season, and I believe that. I expect more than okay play this year and I hope most fans do as well. I want more than completion percentages and the meaning less Qb rating. That crap sounds like when JP homers whopointed to his physical attributes and potential. TOUCHDOWNS and FIRST DOWNS are what I'm looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Pushpile you are starting to get as bad as Alpha. He's Batman and you're Robin. Well, anyway, I'm glad the Bills FO and the rest of the NFL don't share you're views. Any one with a reasonable view, knows that Trent in his first full year played well enough, considering the lack of weapons and coaching staff to not even consider replacing him. If the NFL analysts or mocks felt the way you two do, then there would be talk of us drafting a QB. The only talk of us drafting a QB is ALpha's speculation and some other's on this board hahaha. you guyz are too much. But no where is there anything like that even mentioned, or trade talks or anything! My feeling is that some of you are going to hedge Trent's possible failure to our success. Deep down inside, I don't care how many times you say "he's a good guy, I like him and he has potential" bla bla bla, we all know there is a part of you that is rooting against him. Hoping that a player like Cutler who has terrible character and isn't even one of our own, you are secretly going to root for him. Don't say that you won't, because we know that you are. That's Sad. We do have our QB, and he's a going to continue to get better and I'm excited to see how we will do now with a full year under his belt, with an added weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Pushpile you are starting to get as bad as Alpha. He's Batman and you're Robin. Well, anyway, I'm glad the Bills FO and the rest of the NFL don't share you're views. Any one with a reasonable view, knows that Trent in his first full year played well enough, considering the lack of weapons and coaching staff to not even consider replacing him. We do have our QB, and he's a going to continue to get better and I'm excited to see how we will do now with a full year under his belt, with an added weapon. Some of us are not sure TE is the long term answer at the QB position and some are sure he is. It is a difference in opinion. We do know that the FO, for now, thinks he will develop into the QB we need him to be. But I am not sure how you can extend that to the rest of the NFL. I happen to think that they do not have us picking a QB early is because of the reason you stated - it is too early to make the switch. And my opinion is no more or less 'reasonable' than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Pushpile you are starting to get as bad as Alpha. He's Batman and you're Robin. Well, anyway, I'm glad the Bills FO and the rest of the NFL don't share you're views. Any one with a reasonable view, knows that Trent in his first full year played well enough, considering the lack of weapons and coaching staff to not even consider replacing him. If the NFL analysts or mocks felt the way you two do, then there would be talk of us drafting a QB. The only talk of us drafting a QB is ALpha's speculation and some other's on this board hahaha. you guyz are too much. But no where is there anything like that even mentioned, or trade talks or anything! My feeling is that some of you are going to hedge Trent's possible failure to our success. Deep down inside, I don't care how many times you say "he's a good guy, I like him and he has potential" bla bla bla, we all know there is a part of you that is rooting against him. Hoping that a player like Cutler who has terrible character and isn't even one of our own, you are secretly going to root for him. Don't say that you won't, because we know that you are. That's Sad. We'll see how Trent does this year. What has he done in 23 starts? Regressed Does he deserve to start this year? Yes, because 23 starts is not enough to discredit a young Qb. Does he need to do significantly better than he has, in order to be a career starter? Yes, more production is needed. Does Qb play directly effect wins and losses? Yes, it's the most important factor. Am I a hater because I have doubts that he can dramatically improve? No Do you sound like a JP fanboy, when you attack me for saying Trent hasn't performed up to par yet? Absolutely Do I ever route against a Buffalo Bills player? No, but thanks for throwing that out there. Do I expect you to make up excuses next year if his play doesn't improve? Yes, it's hard to get over a mancrush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizell Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 haha. pushthepile is about as objective as one can be, yet magox's panties are in a bunch because he's not down on his hands and knees fellating trent edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Some of us are not sure TE is the long term answer at the QB position and some are sure he is. It is a difference in opinion. We do know that the FO, for now, thinks he will develop into the QB we need him to be. But I am not sure how you can extend that to the rest of the NFL. I happen to think that they do not have us picking a QB early is because of the reason you stated - it is too early to make the switch. And my opinion is no more or less 'reasonable' than yours. To have concerns is logical. To constantly bash him is another thing. I am not sure he is the long term answer, but I believe he is. To me he has shown promise in his first full year. I think another year of experience with an added weapon will only help his development. In regards to the rest of the NFL, well, no one knows for sure, but I can tell you this, %99 of the draft boards and analysts all have us picking players that are not QB's. So to me, that is telling. But I'm sure someone will come up with a lame excuse on why a qb isn't listed as a need for us. And I'm sure it will be someone who has shown their disdain for Trent in the past here. Look, when a poster like Bizell is stating that someone is objective, then you know something is wrong. As long as I am on the other side of what Bizell thinks, I am A OK with that FaninChicago what you said was completely reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 haha. pushthepile is about as objective as one can be, yet magox's panties are in a bunch because he's not down on his hands and knees fellating trent edwards. The crusade continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Bandit Opponent defensive rankings where cutler won Oakland 27 New Orleans 23 Cleveland 26 Atlanta 24 Jets 16 K.C 31 Tampa 9 (16-13) score Opponent defensive rankings where cutler lost Sandiego 25 K.C 31 Jacksonville 17 New England 10 (41-7) score oakland 27 Carolina 18 Buffalo 14 Bandit, couldn't you make the same argument for Cutler? The teams he beat had bad defenses, except for Tampa and in that game they only scored 16 points. and if you look at the teams they lost to, they were'nt so hot either, look at how many points they put up against New England: 7 points. So the argument you just made, can be made for Cutler as well. Now I'm not saying Edwards is better, because at this stage he isn't. But I just wanted you to know that the same argument you made can be made for Cutler as well. Solid post Magox. Sure, I'll agree that the same argument can be made for Cutler in terms of wins/losses. I suppose the crux of it would be that the 2 QBs can indeed be evaluated on a level playing field in terms of level of competition. In that respect, I personally feel like the difference in production is significant. What does this say? Not sure, except that it would appear that Cutler was able to better take advantage of the weaker defenses he faced. Now, whether or not that comes down to coaching, schemes, surrounding talent, etc. is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Points all well taken. But if you don't see some/many alleged "fans" trashing Edwards, you haven't read much of this thread prior. And I'm not saying he's "better" than Cutler (although he may be eventually- he has 2 years w/ DJ, vs Cutler's 4 years w/ Shanny). Differing viewpoints are cool. Trashing our young QB, as many regularly do, not so cool. yeah there's a lot of jokers on here, for sure, but that's to be expected. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that you were globally calling out those who question Edwards as non-fans...my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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