JimmyPage Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Someone jog my memory, what was it we gave up to move up to draft Losman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanahan's Horseshoe Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Someone jog my memory, what was it we gave up to move up to draft Losman? Doin the Bull dance, feelin the flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 HERE IS A QUIZ...THE BILLS HAVE PLAYED 5 GAMES SO FAR THIS YEAR. WHO WAS THE QB IN THE ONLY GAME THAT THE BILLS OFFENSE FAILED TO SCORE 20 OR MORE POINTS???? ANSWER: YOU GUESSED IT >>>GOOD OLD 1ST ROUND BUST JP LOSMAN I'm hardly what you'd call a member of the Losman camp. Basically ever since I registered, I've expressed the view that if you're going to use a first round pick on a QB, it should be on a guy who's known as a good pocket passer--not on a guy who's "raw" but has lots of "upside" (i.e., physical upside). That said, you might want to rethink the way in which you're presenting this case. As someone pointed out in this thread, two of the Bills' possessions were ended by fumbles, and neither fumble was Losman's fault. And putting up 17 points isn't too shabby, especially with the line doing its best to imitate proctologists. "Thanks to my fine medical work, everything is now unblocked . . ." If you feel the Arizona game should count against Losman--which I do--you should argue your case on a somewhat different basis. Joe Montana led the Chiefs to just 6 first half points against the Bills in the AFC Championship game. Does the fact that Montana was on pace for a 12 point game mean that he played worse against Buffalo than Losman played against Arizona? I don't think it does. I think an analysis of QB play has to go a little deeper than points per game, especially if you're looking at just one game. When Edwards is under center, the Bills' passing offense is largely predicated around short to intermediate passing routes with the occasional long bomb. The idea apparently to kill the other team's defense with a thousand small cuts. For this style of offense to work, the quarterback has to read the field quickly, see multiple options, and be quick and decisive in his actions. That wasn't the style of offense the Bills tried to run when Losman was under center against Arizona, which to me implies the coaching staff doesn't trust him to run that kind of offense. And I think we all know why the coaching staff doesn't want him in that offense: he doesn't have the same ability to process information quickly that Edwards has. If you try to sustain a many-play drive with Losman, sooner or later a time will come when Losman's primary target is covered, and the drive will fizzle out. That's why Losman lives and dies by the big play. While the above mental limitations have always been part of Losman's game, there have been times when they're not apparent from the stats. A few long bombs to Lee Evans will do wonders for a quarterback's passer rating, his average yards per pass attempt, his points per game, and just about any other stat you'd normally use. But after a while teams learn to take away those long bombs, especially when they realize how ineffective a Losman-led offense is going to be once those long bombs to Evans are no longer an option. Instead of looking at things on a points per game basis, I'd suggest making a list of the things each quarterback does well, and which things he does poorly. Losman's positives in the Arizona game involved his long bomb to Evans, his good mobility on that TD run, and his ability to complete some intermediate passes by hitting his primary receiver. His weaknesses include his pocket awareness, information processing ability, ability to see multiple options, and his overall ability to run the same kind of offense in which Edwards excels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdorn Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I remember one game Buffalo had against Joe Montana and he got knocked out of the game early BECAUSE OF NO PASS PROTECTION. I was at that game it was Bruce who took him out messed up his lower back I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerjamhead Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I'm hardly what you'd call a member of the Losman camp. Basically ever since I registered, I've expressed the view that if you're going to use a first round pick on a QB, it should be on a guy who's known as a good pocket passer--not on a guy who's "raw" but has lots of "upside" (i.e., physical upside). That said, you might want to rethink the way in which you're presenting this case. As someone pointed out in this thread, two of the Bills' possessions were ended by fumbles, and neither fumble was Losman's fault. And putting up 17 points isn't too shabby, especially with the line doing its best to imitate proctologists. "Thanks to my fine medical work, everything is now unblocked . . ." If you feel the Arizona game should count against Losman--which I do--you should argue your case on a somewhat different basis. Joe Montana led the Chiefs to just 6 first half points against the Bills in the AFC Championship game. Does the fact that Montana was on pace for a 12 point game mean that he played worse against Buffalo than Losman played against Arizona? I don't think it does. I think an analysis of QB play has to go a little deeper than points per game, especially if you're looking at just one game. When Edwards is under center, the Bills' passing offense is largely predicated around short to intermediate passing routes with the occasional long bomb. The idea apparently to kill the other team's defense with a thousand small cuts. For this style of offense to work, the quarterback has to read the field quickly, see multiple options, and be quick and decisive in his actions. That wasn't the style of offense the Bills tried to run when Losman was under center against Arizona, which to me implies the coaching staff doesn't trust him to run that kind of offense. And I think we all know why the coaching staff doesn't want him in that offense: he doesn't have the same ability to process information quickly that Edwards has. If you try to sustain a many-play drive with Losman, sooner or later a time will come when Losman's primary target is covered, and the drive will fizzle out. That's why Losman lives and dies by the big play. While the above mental limitations have always been part of Losman's game, there have been times when they're not apparent from the stats. A few long bombs to Lee Evans will do wonders for a quarterback's passer rating, his average yards per pass attempt, his points per game, and just about any other stat you'd normally use. But after a while teams learn to take away those long bombs, especially when they realize how ineffective a Losman-led offense is going to be once those long bombs to Evans are no longer an option. Instead of looking at things on a points per game basis, I'd suggest making a list of the things each quarterback does well, and which things he does poorly. Losman's positives in the Arizona game involved his long bomb to Evans, his good mobility on that TD run, and his ability to complete some intermediate passes by hitting his primary receiver. His weaknesses include his pocket awareness, information processing ability, ability to see multiple options, and his overall ability to run the same kind of offense in which Edwards excels. Not bad. What's amazing is that the JP/Trent debate is now a year old and still going strong. Thousands of posts later, it hasn't even come close to an end. Good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedawg Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Yes I do think Trent would have done better. The other thing is that I don't accept the notion that...we would have lost anyways. Because it's not just that we lost it's how we lost. With Losman only putting up 17 it tells me that with him in there we are toast. Set this game's score aside as far as it being winable or not, Losman's performance is what is bothersome. This game demonstrates to me that if it comes down to him at QB we are done. He really cannnot seem to put up points against anyone. I think you can place part of the blame on the coaching staff for that and part on JP. Here are a couple points to back that up. I won't take the time to dig up links but they are out there. 1. JP came off the bench cold after not seeing any time in an NFL game since week 12 last season. (Dickey J even admitted this one) 2. JP is not getting much if any work in practice with the first team O. ( I believe Turk stated this in an interview) 3. The coaching staff made no adjustments to either side of the ball. This why I don't think Trent would have done any better. I am in no way slamming him or trying to push a JP agenda. There are just too many variables out there to say that JP didn't do well. 4. JP's stats are actually pretty good. 15 for 21 for 220yds 1 passing TD and 1 rushing TD. He was picked once and had a lost fumble. QB rating of 101.3 If JP gets the nod over Trent for the SD game we will see what a week and a half of practice with the first team does. If he puts up a stinker there assuming he play's then you have a bit more leverage to say he stinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenbar Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Someone jog my memory, what was it we gave up to move up to draft Losman? I think we gave them our 2nd that year to move up..And our first round pick the next year..I believe they drafted Jones the running back.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenbar Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I was at that game it was Bruce who took him out messed up his lower back I believe. It was in the AFC championship game at the Ralph..Hansen,Wright and Bruce I beleive all met Montana at the same time..I think it was late in second qtr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Not bad. What's amazing is that the JP/Trent debate is now a year old and still going strong. Thousands of posts later, it hasn't even come close to an end. Good stuff! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I am in no way slamming [Trent] or trying to push a JP agenda. Do you honestly expect anyone to believe the above when you've selected a pink tampon box labeled "poise" as your avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think we gave them our 2nd that year to move up..And our first round pick the next year..I believe they drafted Jones the running back.. AND a 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 The Bills traded picks that turned-out to be Julius Jones (2nd 2004), Sean Ryan (5th 2004) and Marcus Spears (1st 2005) for the Cowboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenbar Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 The Bills traded picks that turned-out to be Julius Jones (2nd 2004), Sean Ryan (5th 2004) and Marcus Spears (1st 2005) for the Cowboys. Nice memory..I couldnt remember the 5th rounder.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOOOOOO Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 This a a classic case of someone opening his mouth and inserting his foot. The jets weren't just a benefactor of turnovers. One of the turnovers was an interception in the endzone on the game's last play. 17 out of the 56 points came off of turnovers, that still leaves 39 points The jets had Td drives of 83 yards 80 yards 73 yards 49 yards 40 yards 29 yards The Losman lead Bills scored 17 Wake up and smell the toast burning LoL do you know how this game works.....do you know about setting a tone....in front of your home crowd.....7 turnovers, 7 , changes the complexion on the entire game....The Jets defense set it for that game.....and the offense fed off that.... In our game...had the defense been able to do anything...the game would have been completely different...The Bills defense set the tone for our game....and there inability to get off the field gave 0 chance to win this game.... If the Defense makes one or two plays in the first half, the 4th quarter is completely different.... and btw The Jets scored 27 off there defense/special teams(not that it matters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedawg Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Do you honestly expect anyone to believe the above when you've selected a pink tampon box labeled "poise" as your avatar? Awww come on..... That was put up last season when "Poise" was the big buzz word at TBD. I forgot to change it... But still I like Trent.. The guy's got game... But so does QB 2 they are just different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Awww come on..... That was put up last season when "Poise" was the big buzz word at TBD. I forgot to change it... But still I like Trent.. The guy's got game... But so does QB 2 they are just different. You mean when"poise" was a negative word on TBD to all the Losman lovers. Yes they are different one is NFL starter quality, and one is NFL backup quality. GO BILLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike22nc Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Why are we still even worrying about disecting the play of JP Losman? Haven't we done enough of that over the last ~4 years? Look, he will always show flashes of why he was drafted in the first round despite being not much more than a punching bag who threw the ball far in college. His talent level is probably top 10 in the NFL. When you see that talent, you want to believe that at some point he can put it to good use. The problem is, he's worn out his welcome here. We gave him enough time, he didn't lose his job because of his injury, he lost it because the light bulb just has never gone on for him. Will it at his next stop? I dont think so, but it's possible. I just dont understand how it's possible that he still seems to be the EXACT same player he was in his first season as a starter. This is his job, he has spent countless hours going over the tape of his play, and he still hasn't improved his weaknesses. This, to me, shows a lack of understanding and potential as an NFL quarterback. I dont care if he is or is not to blame for the loss in Arizona. I am just judging JP as our backup quarterback, and I dont at all feel comfortable with him in the game. I'm not suggesting that there is someone better on our roster, or that he is a below average backup. What I AM saying is that, if Trent Edwards misses any extended amount of time, we will have trouble winning with JP at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Why are we still even worrying about disecting the play of JP Losman? Haven't we done enough of that over the last ~4 years? ... I agree, so why did you bother to rehash one of the positions that has been espoused to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike22nc Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I agree, so why did you bother to rehash one of the positions that has been espoused to death? If you agree, then the post wasn't written for you. I've just read through much of this thread again, and many people tend to ignore the posts that make sense, and argue against what amounts to the lowest quality posts to try and win an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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