Prisco's take on Peters

[BillsVet]

I don't agree with much that Mickey has to say, but he brought a very good point that changes the entire Schoebel and Peters comparison...

 

I still think it's funny that both players who are so important to this team and play marquee positions were holdovers from the Donahoe reign of error. Regardless, there are similarities and differences that hasn't had a lot of talk about:

 

Schobel looked for a new Kelsay deal as a gauge to determine a new deal for himself. Peters must look at Walker and Dockery's contracts as proof the Bills would pay OL. Obvious difference here is that Walker and Dockery were UFA's, while Kelsay's deal came just before UFA. Still, Kelsay cashed in on the then soon to be UFA market by re-signing with Buffalo. The Bills, IIRC, had only a few days to reach a deal before UFA began.

 

Schobel also got his first pro bowl nod after 5+ seasons of starting at DE for Buffalo. Peters made it in his third full pro season, and first at OLT.

 

The main differences I see is Schobel's contract came after 5+ seasons of starting at DE. Peters has 1.5 at LT. Other than Buffalo anticipating Schobel wanted a new deal after Kelsay's, it's strange that Buffalo didn't think it would happen when Peters' contract was superceded by Walker's and Dockery's. They had Peters penciled in at LT for 2007 and knew he'd performed beyond expectations the previous season at LT. It's downright foolish to not have seen a holdout coming for 2008 after all these events. Perhaps the front office simply ignored a problem, hoping it would work to their favor in 2008.

 

IMO, it boils down to the wrong year to be looking for a contract. I believe this has reached a ridiculous point, but the Bills had to have realized this would happen, particularly after Peters hired Parker. Last year, the Bills had plenty of room to work with (upwards of 33M in cap space), and used some of it on Walker, Dockery, and Schobel. Meanwhile, the Bills this season had those aforementioned contracts, Stroud, Mitchell, and Johnson, to go along with an anticipated deal for Evans among other deals for McKelvin, Parrish, Williams, and Butler. According to PFT, Buffalo has just shy of 21M in cap space before they sign Evans. I'm not clear on their C2C space, but it's evident that they've not budgeted for one more sizable contract this season and will remain committed to that ad infinitum.

[Kelly the Dog]

good post, but again i go back to my earlier question, how do you know how much they want if they won't talk to you?

i know it's rhetorical but still, that's my big sticking point

I have been through this before with some posters but to me, it's just clear as day. What possible reason would there be for Peters and his high-powered big time agent to not ask for what the top 2-3 LTs in the game make? Jason Peters was a Pro Bowl starter in his first full year at arguably the most important position in the game besides QB. He's not even reached his prime. He's young. He has massive, freakish athletic skills. He has no physical liabilities or weaknesses. There is a chance he will get MUCH better. Most everyone around the league is ball-washing him. It doesn't at all matter whether you think he is overrated or not, and he may very well be. Those are simple facts.

 

Again, even if no one has ever mentioned how much he's asking for, would you bet $1.00 that it's NOT what the best LTs in the game are already getting, which is 10 million a year? Or that they haven't let the Bills know?

[John Adams]

Actually, they can. It's called cutting the player since the contracts aren't guaranteed.

 

Yup. That's why the deals between players and teams are only vaguely "contracts" in the sense that businesspeople think of them.

 

Teams can cut players and only pay them guaranteed money. That's why players hold out. Usually, I'm on the side of the renegotiating player. But since Peters is on his way to being the richest Bill ever, IF IF IF IF he has a second Pro Bowl year and because he's already making 3 million a year, he needs to get the hell to camp. In fact, it's too late for him to avoid BOOs since he's already hurt the team by his absence.

[John Adams]

I have been through this before with some posters but to me, it's just clear as day. What possible reason would there be for Peters and his high-powered big time agent to not ask for what the top 2-3 LTs in the game make? Jason Peters was a Pro Bowl starter in his first full year at arguably the most important position in the game besides QB. He's not even reached his prime. He's young. He has massive, freakish athletic skills. He has no physical liabilities or weaknesses. There is a chance he will get MUCH better. Most everyone around the league is ball-washing him. It doesn't at all matter whether you think he is overrated or not, and he may very well be. Those are simple facts.

 

Again, even if no one has ever mentioned how much he's asking for, would you bet $1.00 that it's NOT what the best LTs in the game are already getting, which is 10 million a year? Or that they haven't let the Bills know?

 

Maybe he wants to be one of the richest players in the league, and certainly get the biggest contract in Bills history. I get that. He may deserve it. But he had 1(!) Pro Bowl season that he couldn't even finish and now he's playing petulant child? He has to "feed his kids" in the words of TO, and I get that, but he's now bigger than the team since he decided to hurt the team. Show up. Show you're healthy (because who knows if he is). Renegotiate. If he wants a new contract now, he won't get top 5 at his position money because he hasn't shown he's worth that yet. So he can renegotiate now and get paid more but not top dime. OR he can play the year and show he deserves stratospheric bucks. The dialog starts when he shows up.

 

At this point, he's a jerkoff for hurting the team and I wouldn't talk to him until March 2009.

 

All he's earned now is a lot of BOOs when he takes the field at the Ralph.

[Lurker]

Why does a team that pays 5 million for Kelsey (a DE who averages 3 sacks per year) and 4.25 million for Parrish (a return man who doesn't even return kicks) this year think it's a good idea to force a guy who made the pro-bowl at a very expensive position to play for 4.4 million?

 

Peters' can't get to camp soon enough for me...so moronic posts/threads like this won't continue to take up three-quarters of TSW page.

 

This has become beyond tiresome. If the hibitual posters on this matter are that bored at work/school that continuing to wile away the day cluttering up this board (or should it be 'bored'?) with the same old same old, then they should really look into a career/education change....

[Kelly the Dog]

Maybe he wants to be one of the richest players in the league, and certainly get the biggest contract in Bills history. I get that. He may deserve it. But he had 1(!) Pro Bowl season that he couldn't even finish and now he's playing petulant child? He has to "feed his kids" in the words of TO, and I get that, but he's now bigger than the team since he decided to hurt the team. Show up. Show you're healthy (because who knows if he is). Renegotiate. If he wants a new contract now, he won't get top 5 at his position money because he hasn't shown he's worth that yet. So he can renegotiate now and get paid more but not top dime. OR he can play the year and show he deserves stratospheric bucks. The dialog starts when he shows up.

 

At this point, he's a jerkoff for hurting the team and I wouldn't talk to him until March 2009.

 

All he's earned now is a lot of BOOs when he takes the field at the Ralph.

I'm not supporting him. I think he should be in camp. I am just responding to the countless dozens of posters here consistently saying things like "we don't know what he is asking for", or The Bills don't know what he wants, or The Bills will give him his money if he just shows up. Which, to me, is as foolish as Jason Peters is being.

 

You may be right about hurting the team. I don't think it's reached that stage yet, or at least isn't quickly reversible. My opinion is, if he comes in this week, and he plays opening day or the week after. Fans will very soon love him. And forgot all about this, because we have a Pro Bowl LT protecting Trent and opening holes for Marshawn, and letting our WRs have more time to get downfield and get open.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

I don't think there is any comparison between contracts of other Bills players and this one. IMO, it's foolish to bring up Butler and Kyle Williams in any discussion because of the size of the contracts. The reason the negotiations are difficult is because we're talking 10 million a year. Making Peters one of the highest paid players in the game. It's an entirely different proposition than re-signing Jason Peters. This will be the biggest contract in Bills history. It's easy re-signing marginal players. It's extremely difficult, especially if you're Ralph, to sign a guy to a contract for 10 mil a year when you don't have to.

 

It's not anything about the concept of re-signing guys before their contracts are up. It's not anything about communication or lack thereof. It's not even about loyalty or being in camp versus not being in camp. This entire thing is about one thing: MASSIVE MONEY. They want it now, we don't want to give it to them now. That's it. Period.

I hear all that, but please tell me why the following hypothetical convo couldn't have happened?

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Parker: Jason is woefully underpaid and wants similar money as the top LTs in the league

 

Bills: we agree Jason has overachieved and we're proud of him, but he has a contract and we expect him to honor it (thinking: we can't send a message that we're willing to pay top LT money or even redo his contract, we hold the cards and we can play from a position of power)

 

Parker: Jason is willing to sit out until he's paid like other top LTs (thinking: hey Bills, we're playing hardball here)

 

Bills: we're sorry to hear that, but he has 3 yrs left on his contract (thinking: continue to send a message it's not negotiable)

 

Parker: We understand that, but you need to pay him for his performance, and Pro Bowl LTs don't grow on trees, so he's gonna sit at home until he gets what he deserves (thinking: continue to plant the seed that Peters deserves big bucks and will sit out indefinitely)

 

Bills: If we were even to discuss a new contract, it won't be for this season, and it won't be in the range that you're looking for, since he hasn't been in the position that long, and he was hurt at the end of the season, and if he chooses to hold out, there will be no discussion whatsoever (thinking: do not send a message we're willing to redo this season and pay top dollar, don't even hint!)

 

Parker: okay, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss (thinking: what a bunch of crap, but we warned you)

 

Parker hangs up the phone...

 

Bills execs talking to themselves: Schitt! We don't wanna lose our best lineman, but what a nasty precedent! We can't just give in easily, but we will probably have to redo his deal. Maybe this year, maybe next, but it almost has to be done at some point. We can call the shots, but he did kick butt and deserves more. Let's just tell everyone that we won't negotiate unless he shows up, agreed? And we'll also hint strongly that this year is not negotiable, but if he comes in, we might consider next year's salary, ok? We actually might have to give him a new deal this year, probably not at top $, but we'll use the media to put out the message that this year is off the table. Let's just see how this plays out....

 

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of course it's about big bucks now, but just because the Bills tell (or leak to) some reporters that they won't pay him this year, it doesn't mean they won't. Teams, agents and players use the media all the time, and then do something else entirely different. Changing their tune after he reports doesn't really hurt the Bills all that much. It's a lot better than caving in when he doesn't show up.

[John Adams]

You may be right about hurting the team. I don't think it's reached that stage yet, or at least isn't quickly reversible. My opinion is, if he comes in this week, and he plays opening day or the week after. Fans will very soon love him. And forgot all about this, because we have a Pro Bowl LT protecting Trent and opening holes for Marshawn, and letting our WRs have more time to get downfield and get open.

 

I couldn't disagree more. Assuming he's in shape (who knows?), it will take a few weeks to get into football shape. More importantly, he needs to learn an entire new offensive scheme.

 

If the Pro Bowl LT misses one week, it hurts the team.

 

He's the last holdout in the entire NFL.

[Mickey]

Maybe he wants to be one of the richest players in the league, and certainly get the biggest contract in Bills history. I get that. He may deserve it. But he had 1(!) Pro Bowl season that he couldn't even finish and now he's playing petulant child? He has to "feed his kids" in the words of TO, and I get that, but he's now bigger than the team since he decided to hurt the team. Show up. Show you're healthy (because who knows if he is). Renegotiate. If he wants a new contract now, he won't get top 5 at his position money because he hasn't shown he's worth that yet. So he can renegotiate now and get paid more but not top dime. OR he can play the year and show he deserves stratospheric bucks. The dialog starts when he shows up.

 

At this point, he's a jerkoff for hurting the team and I wouldn't talk to him until March 2009.

 

All he's earned now is a lot of BOOs when he takes the field at the Ralph.

I can certainly understand those who disagree with the strategy he is using. Reasonable minds can differ on that. What I don't get is the leap you make to labeling him a "petulant child". There is no petulance about it, it is, at heart, a financial strategy. The team told him no new deal in 2008 regardless of whether he reported first day or not. So the holdout itself didn't prevent a deal he otherwise could have had. He is holding out hoping to change their minds and it fails, he reports in time to get his first game check. If that is how it plays out, he loses nothing.

 

Lets ignore this for now and flash forward to next year where you say he would get the big bucks after showing exemplary play for the third year in a row (he nearly made the pro bowl in 2006). Why do you think he would get those big bucks then? Has the team said they would give him a big pile next year? Have they even committed to renegotiating next year? He will still have 2 years left on this deal then, why would the Bills renegotiate when they will be holding the very same cards they are holding now?

 

I have posted this question so many times I have lost count but not one person from the "Peters is a Peckerhead" crowd has answered it.

 

Other than an assumption on your part, is there any evidence at all or logical reason why you think the team will give him the big bucks next year?

 

Would you support a holdout by Peters next year if the team again refuses to give him a new deal assuming he has his 3rd exemplary season in a row? If not, what do you suggest he do next year in that event if you rule out holding out?

 

If the team held him to this contract for 3 years and his level of play remains the same, he would end up being one of the most underpaid players in history. At what point would you start supporting this guy?

[Kelly the Dog]

I hear all that, but please tell me why the following hypothetical convo couldn't have happened?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parker: Jason is woefully underpaid and wants similar money as the top LTs in the league

 

Bills: we agree Jason has overachieved and we're proud of him, but he has a contract and we expect him to honor it (thinking: we can't send a message that we're willing to pay top LT money or even redo his contract, we hold the cards and we can play from a position of power)

 

Parker: Jason is willing to sit out until he's paid like other top LTs (thinking: hey Bills, we're playing hardball here)

 

Bills: we're sorry to hear that, but he has 3 yrs left on his contract (thinking: continue to send a message it's not negotiable)

 

Parker: We understand that, but you need to pay him for his performance, and Pro Bowl LTs don't grow on trees, so he's gonna sit at home until he gets what he deserves (thinking: continue to plant the seed that Peters deserves big bucks and will sit out indefinitely)

 

Bills: If we were even to discuss a new contract, it won't be for this season, and it won't be in the range that you're looking for, since he hasn't been in the position that long, and he was hurt at the end of the season, and if he chooses to hold out, there will be no discussion whatsoever (thinking: do not send a message we're willing to redo this season and pay top dollar, don't even hint!)

 

Parker: okay, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss (thinking: what a bunch of crap, but we warned you)

 

Parker hangs up the phone...

 

Bills execs talking to themselves: Schitt! We don't wanna lose our best lineman, but what a nasty precedent! We can't just give in easily, but we will probably have to redo his deal. Maybe this year, maybe next, but it almost has to be done at some point. We can call the shots, but he did kick butt and deserves more. Let's just tell everyone that we won't negotiate unless he shows up, agreed? And we'll also hint strongly that this year is not negotiable, but if he comes in, we might consider next year's salary, ok? We actually might have to give him a new deal this year, probably not at top $, but we'll use the media to put out the message that this year is off the table. Let's just see how this plays out....

 

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of course it's about big bucks now, but just because the Bills tell (or leak to) some reporters that they won't pay him this year, it doesn't mean they won't. Teams, agents and players use the media all the time, and then do something else entirely different. Changing their tune after he reports doesn't really hurt the Bills all that much. It's a lot better than caving in when he doesn't show up.

I agree that 90% of that conversation could easily have happened. My only issue with it at all is the last, bolded part. If they are willing to do that, why wouldnt they be willing to say to Parker, in a back alley, over encoded secure phones, "Hey, just come in. We'll give you your money, guaranteed, it will just come in December or March of next year. Your client will be happy, taken care of for life, and everyone in the NFL will know you got a huge deal for him 2-3 years before his contract was up."

 

They would have had Peters any day they wanted to, got him in game shape and learning the new offense and ready for the season, showed the rest of the team and league that they are willing to pay for Pro Bowl players.

[Mickey]

I hear all that, but please tell me why the following hypothetical convo couldn't have happened?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parker: Jason is woefully underpaid and wants similar money as the top LTs in the league

 

Bills: we agree Jason has overachieved and we're proud of him, but he has a contract and we expect him to honor it (thinking: we can't send a message that we're willing to pay top LT money or even redo his contract, we hold the cards and we can play from a position of power)

 

Parker: Jason is willing to sit out until he's paid like other top LTs (thinking: hey Bills, we're playing hardball here)

 

Bills: we're sorry to hear that, but he has 3 yrs left on his contract (thinking: continue to send a message it's not negotiable)

 

Parker: We understand that, but you need to pay him for his performance, and Pro Bowl LTs don't grow on trees, so he's gonna sit at home until he gets what he deserves (thinking: continue to plant the seed that Peters deserves big bucks and will sit out indefinitely)

 

Bills: If we were even to discuss a new contract, it won't be for this season, and it won't be in the range that you're looking for, since he hasn't been in the position that long, and he was hurt at the end of the season, and if he chooses to hold out, there will be no discussion whatsoever (thinking: do not send a message we're willing to redo this season and pay top dollar, don't even hint!)

 

Parker: okay, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss (thinking: what a bunch of crap, but we warned you)

 

Parker hangs up the phone...

 

Bills execs talking to themselves: Schitt! We don't wanna lose our best lineman, but what a nasty precedent! We can't just give in easily, but we will probably have to redo his deal. Maybe this year, maybe next, but it almost has to be done at some point. We can call the shots, but he did kick butt and deserves more. Let's just tell everyone that we won't negotiate unless he shows up, agreed? And we'll also hint strongly that this year is not negotiable, but if he comes in, we might consider next year's salary, ok? We actually might have to give him a new deal this year, probably not at top $, but we'll use the media to put out the message that this year is off the table. Let's just see how this plays out....

 

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of course it's about big bucks now, but just because the Bills tell (or leak to) some reporters that they won't pay him this year, it doesn't mean they won't. Teams, agents and players use the media all the time, and then do something else entirely different. Changing their tune after he reports doesn't really hurt the Bills all that much. It's a lot better than caving in when he doesn't show up.

And maybe Peter overthrew Greg in the backyard and whacked jason in the nose which has swollen up so bad that all the makeup in the world won't cover it up enough for Jason to keep his date for the prom.

 

All the published reports have indicated that the Bills flatly refuse to negotiate a new contract this year regardless of whether or not he came to camp. They have made no indication at all of ever renegotiationg his contract other than a line about "never say never".

 

Its simple really. He wants a new deal this year, they said no way and he said call if you change your mind and here we sit.

 

It makes sense and several reports confirm it. We don't have a zapbruder film on it but those are the facts as we know them. Does that make him a jerk for taking a shot at changing their minds with a holdout or is the team being miserly with a proven top performer? You make the call.

 

For my dime, I think the team should have started talking with the agent in February of 2007 like they did with Schobel and in the end, if they got a decent deal, they should have taken it and if not, leave it and see how far he takes the holdout knowing you did all you could to try and resolve the situation.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

All the published reports have indicated that the Bills flatly refuse to negotiate a new contract this year regardless of whether or not he came to camp. They have made no indication at all of ever renegotiationg his contract other than a line about "never say never".

 

Its simple really. He wants a new deal this year, they said no way and he said call if you change your mind and here we sit.

 

It makes sense and several reports confirm it. We don't have a zapbruder film on it but those are the facts as we know them. Does that make him a jerk for taking a shot at changing their minds with a holdout or is the team being miserly with a proven top performer? You make the call.

All I have ever seen, is Sal Maiorana from the D&C saying a team official told him this year is out. Everything else has been unsubstantiated repeats from reporters, that being one-sentence statements with no quotes and no information as to how that was learned. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but never once has Brandon or any team official been quoted as saying that. If they have, I missed it and I'll fall on my sword. What they have said is we won't negotiate unless he shows up, which is very different. The fact that they're vague and not promising anything is totally expected.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

I agree that 90% of that conversation could easily have happened. My only issue with it at all is the last, bolded part. If they are willing to do that, why wouldnt they be willing to say to Parker, in a back alley, over encoded secure phones, "Hey, just come in. We'll give you your money, guaranteed, it will just come in December or March of next year. Your client will be happy, taken care of for life, and everyone in the NFL will know you got a huge deal for him 2-3 years before his contract was up."

 

They would have had Peters any day they wanted to, got him in game shape and learning the new offense and ready for the season, showed the rest of the team and league that they are willing to pay for Pro Bowl players.

because that would torpedo their negotiating power and they would never do that. He's playing hardball and they are playing right back, because they can. IMO, they're saying let him show up before we discuss anything, and we're not tipping our hand, no way, no how!

[Kelly the Dog]

because that would torpedo their negotiating power and they would never do that. He's playing hardball and they are playing right back, because they can. IMO, they're saying let him show up before we discuss anything, and we're not tipping our hand, no way, no how!

I understand that but I just don't believe it hurts their bargaining power, versus how much they lose by not having him in there. If they are CLOSE, he would be in. Why would they want to be babies about it, and not have their best player, and potentially get their franchise QB and RB and WR killed, disrupt their playoff chances, etc, just to be pisspots about it like the agent is? It just doesn't make much sense. Everyone would be happy if they were close on the money terms. I don't see the Bills advantage versus the disadvantage in that stance. No agent cares what happens before, or what teams did with other players UNLESS it helps their guy. The fact the Bills didn't cave this time, to me, means nothing to future agents and players. Very, very few players have the talent and goods to hold out, that is why (excluding rookies) only stars hold out for any length of time.

 

A guy like Brad Butler or Kyle Williams or Terrence McGee is not going to holdout into the season. The league would order psychiatrict treatment for them.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

I understand that but I just don't believe it hurts their bargaining power, versus how much they lose by not having him in there. If they are CLOSE, he would be in. Why would they want to be babies about it, and not have their best player, and potentially get their franchise QB and RB and WR killed, disrupt their playoff chances, etc, just to be pisspots about it like the agent is? It just doesn't make much sense. Everyone would be happy if they were close on the money terms. I don't see the Bills advantage versus the disadvantage in that stance. No agent cares what happens before, or what teams did with other players UNLESS it helps their guy. The fact the Bills didn't cave this time, to me, means nothing to future agents and players. Very, very few players have the talent and goods to hold out, that is why (excluding rookies) only stars hold out for any length of time.

yes, but that goes back to Parker playing hardball, telling Peters to stay at home unless the Bills give him big bucks now and part of that strategy is the silent treatment. How do they how far off they might be if they're not talking since January? The Bills said no new deal initially and the media is repeating it, so they're not close, because there's been no discussion in 6 months or so.

 

Of course this is all supposition upon supposition, but I just think the Bills are bluffing because that's the way the game is played, and stubborn Ralph is behind the scenes, pulling the strings.

[Elmowl]

This whole thing is crazy. If you or I broke a contract, someone would come after us. Why is it that athletes continue to get away with this? If Peters isn't there a week before opening day, the Bills should really play hardball. Doing nothing, is not playing hardball. I am not a lawyer, but here's my plan:

 

You contact Parker and let him know that its clear that Jason is really important to the Bills, and that it's time sit down to negotiate. The meeting at Rich Stadium would go something like this:

 

Bills: "How much are you paid"?

 

Peters (Parker): "$3.25 million a year"

 

Bills: "What do you think you are worth"?

 

Peters: "$7.25 million"

 

Bills: "Can you substantiate it"?

 

Peters: (presents a long litany referencing other players contracts, the importance of position to game and to the team, probowl honors, the usual arguments of greedy agents, etc)

 

Bills: "Jason, we agree with you".

 

Peters: "You do"?

 

Bills: "Yes. You are absolutely right. You have convinced us. We agree you are worth $7.25 million dollars a year. You are, however, contract with us to play football for $3.25 million a year. If you are not in back to practice tommorrow, not only will you not be paid, but we will sue you and your agent for breach of contract and the lost value to the team at a rate of the $4 million dollars a year you are costing us".

 

Peters: "Mr. Parker, you're fired".

[TheChimp]

The problem is that Parker has a reputation to uphold. I can easily holding Peters out just to not make himself look like a chump to prospective clients.

Pretty sure Parker's reputation is as smeared as it's ever gonna get. Peters, when he makes the big deal with the Bills, won't do it because of Parker, but DESPITE Parker, IMO.

 

I like Elmowl's idea.

[cody]

Pretty sure Parker's reputation is as smeared as it's ever gonna get. Peters, when he makes the big deal with the Bills, won't do it because of Parker, but DESPITE Parker, IMO.

 

Parker's reputation was made by pulling stuff like this. Wikipedia has a client list, almost half of the clients listed have been holdouts at some time durring his representation. All of them got new contracts. I really do not care for his methods but it is hard to argue with his sucess.

 

Check out this article about Parker 11 years ago. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stor...ewscolumn3.html

It's not about holdouts, but it is pretty impresive. The NFL and the NFLPA had to change contract rules bacause of Parker.

 

Parker has done this enough. He knows what he will do if the Bills won't negotiate.