Dumb and Dumber on WGR55 right now..

[zonabb]

Dope can't get his mind around population and demographics, probably because it's requires analysis, not reading back stats that he read somewhere.

 

Anyway, the problem is, the definition of a Metropolitan Statistical Area. That si essentially the base number the NFL and media use to detmerine the "size" (economic, geographic, population) of a team market. The definition and boundary of MSA is based on commuting data from the census and a core community in excess of 50,000 people. That's obviously Buffalo. But they meaure the connectivity (economic and social) of the core to the outlaying areas by commuting trips.

 

So, the Buffalo MSA is just Erie and Niagara Counties. The Rochester MSA is Orleans, Ontario, Monroe, Livingston and Wayne. If you know the counties, that leaves Genesee County not even included, yet it borders Erie and Monroe.

 

So they take the population and use it for everything to measure Buffalo. Unfortately, as one guy tried to explain, it's really a poor measurement because if you take the the Rochester MSA and Buffalo MSA, plus Genesee, Wyoming, Cattaraugus and Chautaqua county into account, the population is close to 3 million people with a total land area of about 8900 square miles.

 

Now, if you take Atlanta for example (because that was the first MSA I came across when looking), it consists of 28 counties and an area of about 8300 square miles.

 

So is it fair to compare Buffalo only as two counties when you use 28 for Atlanta. Maybe, but I'd say it's unfair when you use 8300 square miles around Atlanta and only about 1200 for Erie-Niagara.

 

I took demographics in grad school and one thing the prof always said, and that the Buffalo Niagara Partnership has advocated in the passed was to make our MSA bigger geographically. If nothing more, it moves the Buffalo MSA higher on the population list and might attract business due to the population numbers.

 

If you add in the Niagara and Hamilton cnesus districts in Ontario, that's almost a million more people.

 

The bottom line is, there are plenty of people and businesses within no more than 1.5 hours of the stadium.

 

Winning solves everything.

 

Yes, I look into this sometime back!

[TheZone78]

Great post.......thanks for that.

 

If Ralph goes out this off-season and makes a big free agent splash to show people how committed he is to a winner, people come in droves to support this team. I don't agree with Ralph when he says Buffalo has no pricing power. People will always spend money when they see something of value.

 

One more solid draft, re-signing Clements, Fletcher and this team can compete every week.

 

My two cents.....

[gomper]

Nicely done Zonabb. This is the kind of explanation you should hear on a good spportstalk station......but GR and those two idiots on now dont have a clue.

[beausox]

Dope can't get his mind around population and demographics, probably because it's requires analysis, not reading back stats that he read somewhere.

 

Anyway, the problem is, the definition of a Metropolitan Statistical Area. That si essentially the base number the NFL and media use to detmerine the "size" (economic, geographic, population) of a team market. The definition and boundary of MSA is based on commuting data from the census and a core community in excess of 50,000 people. That's obviously Buffalo. But they meaure the connectivity (economic and social) of the core to the outlaying areas by commuting trips.

 

So, the Buffalo MSA is just Erie and Niagara Counties. The Rochester MSA is Orleans, Ontario, Monroe, Livingston and Wayne. If you know the counties, that leaves Genesee County not even included, yet it borders Erie and Monroe.

 

So they take the population and use it for everything to measure Buffalo. Unfortately, as one guy tried to explain, it's really a poor measurement because if you take the the Rochester MSA and Buffalo MSA, plus Genesee, Wyoming, Cattaraugus and Chautaqua county into account, the population is close to 3 million people with a total land area of about 8900 square miles.

 

Now, if you take Atlanta for example (because that was the first MSA I came across when looking), it consists of 28 counties and an area of about 8300 square miles.

 

So is it fair to compare Buffalo only as two counties when you use 28 for Atlanta. Maybe, but I'd say it's unfair when you use 8300 square miles around Atlanta and only about 1200 for Erie-Niagara.

 

I took demographics in grad school and one thing the prof always said, and that the Buffalo Niagara Partnership has advocated in the passed was to make our MSA bigger geographically. If nothing more, it moves the Buffalo MSA higher on the population list and might attract business due to the population numbers.

 

If you add in the Niagara and Hamilton cnesus districts in Ontario, that's almost a million more people.

 

The bottom line is, there are plenty of people and businesses within no more than 1.5 hours of the stadium.

 

Winning solves everything.

 

Yes, I look into this sometime back!

868035[/snapback]

Valid information. How unique in this forum!

[ryborg]

Nice analysis. You're right on.

 

If you're looking for intelligent sports-radio banter, the last place to look is GR on afternoon drive-time. I'd rather sip down a bleach and syphilis milkshake than listen to those brain-dead troglodytes. I've heard a lot of terrible sports-radio over the years, but "Bulldog" might be the most useless co-host I've ever heard. Plus, his idiotic laugh is worse than nails down a chalkboard.

[Webster Guy]

I'd rather sip down a bleach and syphilis milkshake

868081[/snapback]

 

Now THAT just grossed me out.

[Buftex]

Winning solves everything.

 

868035[/snapback]

 

 

No matter how you feel about Ralph Wilson as an owner (there are valid points, good and bad, I think), his whining right now, IMO, is doing nothing but making the liklihood of a Buffalo without the Bills more likely.

 

His concerns about small market teams, in a big market leauge, are valid, but, as you said, winning solves everything. If you could take those 4 Super Bowl losing teams of the early 1990's out of that decade, and place them in this century, with the similar results, nobody would really be talking about the Bills leaving Buffalo, or whether Buffalo could support the Bills. If WNYs struggling economy has any sort of cause and effect on the Bills, the opposite is true. The Bills last decade of mediocre football is taking its' toll. Give Buffalo a winner, or even hope of a winner (see TD era), and Bills fans will always find the money to support the team.

 

If Ralph is truly concerned about Buffalo keeping the Bills, he would be better served trying to find ways to make them more viable, even if it meant selling the team, to local interests.

[Kelly the Dog]

No matter how you feel about Ralph Wilson as an owner (there are valid points, good and bad, I think), his whining right now, IMO, is doing nothing but making the liklihood of a Buffalo without the Bills more likely. 

 

His concerns about small market teams, in a big market leauge, are valid, but, as you said, winning solves everything.  If you could take those 4 Super Bowl losing teams of the early 1990's out of that decade, and place them in this century, with the similar results, nobody would really be talking about the Bills leaving Buffalo, or whether Buffalo could support the Bills.  If WNYs struggling economy has any sort of cause and effect on the Bills, the opposite is true.  The Bills last decade of mediocre football is taking its' toll.  Give Buffalo a winner, or even hope of a winner (see TD era), and Bills fans will always find the money to support the team. 

 

If Ralph is truly concerned about Buffalo keeping the Bills, he would be better served trying to find ways to make them more viable, even if it meant selling the team, to local interests.

868086[/snapback]

I tend to criticize Ralph at times because of certain things he says, but on his behalf, most of the problems he is addressing right now simply didn't exist like this in the early 90s. And won't necessarily be solved by winning and selling out the stadium as it is a precious few thousand seats at $40 each 3-4 times a year. A mere pittance.

[Ramius]

Now THAT just grossed me out.

868084[/snapback]

 

Eh, its not too bad. the bleach will kill the syphilis, so its bascially the same as drinking bleach. No danger of an STD.

[AJ1]

Eh, its not too bad. the bleach will kill the syphilis, so its bascially the same as drinking bleach. No danger of an STD.

868090[/snapback]

 

Bleach will do a good job on the patient too, so you won't have to worry about tomorrow.

[Buftex]

I tend to criticize Ralph at times because of certain things he says, but on his behalf, most of the problems he is addressing right now simply didn't exist like this in the early 90s. And won't necessarily be solved by winning and selling out the stadium as it is a precious few thousand seats at $40 each 3-4 times a year. A mere pittance.

868088[/snapback]

 

 

Yeah, I realize that, but what I am saying is that Ralph needs to do something to embrace those changes, or enlist someone who can help him look ahead, not to the past. The way he has been talking, it is starting to sound more and more like a pre-emptive apology/excuse for yanking the franchise out of WNY. Believe me, I am not even saying

 

The NFL is not going to go back, or lower its' expectatons to those that were good enough for the 1970's and 1980's. If the Bills had a tradition richer in winning, I just get the feeling that some of those hurdles that the Bills can't overcome, off the field, wouldn't be so difficult to overcome. Maybe I am wrong.

 

I also realize that tickets are merely a drop in the bucket as far as the profitabitly of a franchise goes. But I would be willing to bet, if the Bills were a contender year in year out (or at least more often than not), the Bills could sell out the Ralph every Sunday, even if they were charging far more than their current lower ticket prices.

 

Aside from their unusual ownership situation, the one thing that keeps the Packers in Green Bay, is their winnning heritage. Imagine the national outrage if there was ever any buzz about the Packers leaving Green Bay. Hell, look what happened in Clevland when the Browns left...with the Bills, partly because of their low national profile, it is just us and Ralph who will shed a tear about the Bills leaving Buffalo, if, god forbid, that day ever comes.

[loadofmularkey]

Nice analysis. You're right on.

 

If you're looking for intelligent sports-radio banter, the last place to look is GR on afternoon drive-time. I'd rather sip down a bleach and syphilis milkshake than listen to those brain-dead troglodytes.

868081[/snapback]

 

Schopp and the Bulldog are pretty bad, but I think I'd rather listen to them than drink your milkshake.

[SectionC3]

Dope can't get his mind around population and demographics, probably because it's requires analysis, not reading back stats that he read somewhere.

 

Anyway, the problem is, the definition of a Metropolitan Statistical Area. That si essentially the base number the NFL and media use to detmerine the "size" (economic, geographic, population) of a team market. The definition and boundary of MSA is based on commuting data from the census and a core community in excess of 50,000 people. That's obviously Buffalo. But they meaure the connectivity (economic and social) of the core to the outlaying areas by commuting trips.

 

So, the Buffalo MSA is just Erie and Niagara Counties. The Rochester MSA is Orleans, Ontario, Monroe, Livingston and Wayne. If you know the counties, that leaves Genesee County not even included, yet it borders Erie and Monroe.

 

So they take the population and use it for everything to measure Buffalo. Unfortately, as one guy tried to explain, it's really a poor measurement because if you take the the Rochester MSA and Buffalo MSA, plus Genesee, Wyoming, Cattaraugus and Chautaqua county into account, the population is close to 3 million people with a total land area of about 8900 square miles.

 

Now, if you take Atlanta for example (because that was the first MSA I came across when looking), it consists of 28 counties and an area of about 8300 square miles.

 

So is it fair to compare Buffalo only as two counties when you use 28 for Atlanta. Maybe, but I'd say it's unfair when you use 8300 square miles around Atlanta and only about 1200 for Erie-Niagara.

 

I took demographics in grad school and one thing the prof always said, and that the Buffalo Niagara Partnership has advocated in the passed was to make our MSA bigger geographically. If nothing more, it moves the Buffalo MSA higher on the population list and might attract business due to the population numbers.

 

If you add in the Niagara and Hamilton cnesus districts in Ontario, that's almost a million more people.

 

The bottom line is, there are plenty of people and businesses within no more than 1.5 hours of the stadium.

 

Winning solves everything.

 

Yes, I look into this sometime back!

868035[/snapback]

 

Few realize that there are people, and a significant number of people at that, across the border in Canada. While the Buffalo Metro Area might stop at the Niagara River, there are a significant number of bodies between Rochester and Hamilton that probably makes this one of the larger markets in North America. This goes back about 15 years, but a local readio station did a study and found that Buffalo + Niagara Falls + Hamilton would constitute one of the top-15 markets in the U.S.

[Colorado Mike]

Few realize that there are people, and a significant number of people at that, across the border in Canada.  While the Buffalo Metro Area might stop at the Niagara River, there are a significant number of bodies between Rochester and Hamilton that probably makes this one of the larger markets in North America.  This goes back about 15 years, but a local readio station did a study and found that Buffalo + Niagara Falls + Hamilton would constitute one of the top-15 markets in the U.S.

868266[/snapback]

To further validate your post, look at the list of largest cities in the country and you will see San Antonio listed as the 8th largest. However, I lived there from '86-'99 and know that the reason they are that "large" is SA continually annexes the growing suburbs. So practically the entire MSA there is within city limits and it makes the city rank larger than it really is, whereas in most major cities the population is based on city limits, which generally are not all that far in any direction from downtown.