Albany,n.y. Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Free speech doesn't exist in Bush's America http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3387143 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Free speech doesn't exist in Bush's America http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3387143 2677[/snapback] The key words are 'provided by the client.' I doubt that ANYONE who provided tickets to an event would want to be embarassed by someone who used them. That in itself, in my book, got the man fired. He should have known that would happen... it's just plain common sense. But it IS good to see that someone has it right with those protestor T-shirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain America Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Free speech doesn't exist in Bush's America http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3387143 2677[/snapback] Well then be quite and go out and shoot a teenage Vietamese boy in the back like your commie leader :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Free speech doesn't exist in Bush's America http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3387143 2677[/snapback] It sounds to me like he probably acted like a jerk and his company decided to hold him accountable for his actions. I don't see what the problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Well then be quite and go out and shoot a teenage Vietamese boy in the back like your commie leader :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: 2751[/snapback] And you call yourself a Christian? I plucked this from the recent Time. Shrek 2 lesson: "If we approach others with an aim to change them rather than an aim to know them, to love them and to exemplify a better life for them, we make ourselves ugly with arrogance in the process." ~christianitytoday.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 It sounds to me like he probably acted like a jerk and his company decided to hold him accountable for his actions. I don't see what the problem is. 2789[/snapback] If he was unethical, I can see your point. Was he in an official compacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBillsFan Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 If he was unethical, I can see your point. Was he in an official compacity? 2910[/snapback] Why go in the first place? A client gives your company tickets to an event and you go it is IMO in an official compacity. If you don't like the speaker don't go, and if I HAD to guess I would bet this was not the ONLY reason the guy is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Why go in the first place? A client gives your company tickets to an event and you go it is IMO in an official compacity. If you don't like the speaker don't go, and if I HAD to guess I would bet this was not the ONLY reason the guy is gone. 2985[/snapback] I don't think that there are caveats attached to gifts? The tix were gifts right? If that is the case, then that seems unethical or at least it goes against American principles. Now if he stood up and said is title out loud, then proceeded to make an opinion in the name of the position... I can see you point. Just being your person doesn't preclude that you are in an official compacity. Again the tix were gifts??? How does everyone here (this board) define freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 scenario: I give a client tickets to a bills game. the client gives them to one of his employees who acts like a jackass by swearing and getting thrown out of the game. Some people sitting around him tell me, I mention it to the client who fires him. what's wrong with that? I might do the same thing in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 scenario: I give a client tickets to a bills game. the client gives them to one of his employees who acts like a jackass by swearing and getting thrown out of the game. Some people sitting around him tell me, I mention it to the client who fires him. what's wrong with that? I might do the same thing in the same situation. 3035[/snapback] So what you are saying there are rules to how you use a personal gift? Nothing if during the profane exchanges bandied about his position and company he works for. Everything (is wrong with that) if he just acted like a jackass... He does have a right to act like a jackass on his own time? So in other words if you act like a jackass while using your frequent flyer miles on vacation... You can get fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 So what you are saying there are rules to how you use a personal gift? Nothing if during the profane exchanges bandied about his position and company he works for. Everything (is wrong with that) if he just acted like a jackass... He does have a right to act like a jackass on his own time? So in other words if you act like a jackass while using your frequent flyer miles on vacation... You can get fired? 3061[/snapback] Have you ever heard of the word etiquette? If I invited you golfing at my (imaginary) ritzy golf club would I have to say: "please don't throw a tantrum and rip up the fairways with your clubs if you hit a bad shot" or would you understand that? If you did rip up the fairways would you still expect me to do business with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Everything (is wrong with that) if he just acted like a jackass... He does have a right to act like a jackass on his own time? So in other words if you act like a jackass while using your frequent flyer miles on vacation... You can get fired? EEI - this is about as bad as trying to defend $200 vaccuuming jobs. If your boss gives you a gift and with it you embarrass him to the point where it may affect his business, yes he can fire you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain America Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 And you call yourself a Christian? I plucked this from the recent Time. Shrek 2 lesson: "If we approach others with an aim to change them rather than an aim to know them, to love them and to exemplify a better life for them, we make ourselves ugly with arrogance in the process." ~christianitytoday.com 2899[/snapback] Sure I do ,thats very Christian ,dont you think? "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 EEI - this is about as bad as trying to defend $200 vaccuuming jobs. If your boss gives you a gift and with it you embarrass him to the point where it may affect his business, yes he can fire you. 3102[/snapback] Why is that an embarrassment? Not thinking like you is considered an embarassment? Is speaking your political mind illegal? So it boils down to the simple fact that if you don't agree politically with your boss he can fire you? That is just flat wrong. Believe it or not there are people out there that kind of pressure will affect there vote. And that is wrong. And what is wrong with $200 cleaning jobs? You still think they shouldn't be making that much? Why? Because you deem it easy? $200 is chump change. The problem is everybody needs it and they want to pay the absolute minimum. Don't get me started! ... Because you still haven't answered where you dispose of your "trade show" debris??? I'm cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 So it boils down to the simple fact that if you don't agree politically with your boss he can fire you? Where did I say that? I said if you make an ass out of yourself to the point where it may affect your company's bottom line, you may be fired. Answer me this: You sell roofing supplies. Your boss is given 2 bills tickets from one of his big customers who buys millions of dollars in shingles from your company each year. Your boss gives you the tickets, and you sit with 4 other people from the roofing company. You get drunk, harass everyone around you and get thrown out of the stadium for your behavior. you don't think that's grounds for getting fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Where did I say that? I said if you make an ass out of yourself to the point where it may affect your company's bottom line, you may be fired. Answer me this: You sell roofing supplies. Your boss is given 2 bills tickets from one of his big customers who buys millions of dollars in shingles from your company each year. Your boss gives you the tickets, and you sit with 4 other people from the roofing company. You get drunk, harass everyone around you and get thrown out of the stadium for your behavior. you don't think that's grounds for getting fired? 3239[/snapback] No. And it it is not grounds for that roofing company to stop doing business with you. Now if it kept repeatly happening... Maybe yes to both. Shows a repeated lack of judgement. One time is a blip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 No. And it it is not grounds for that roofing company to stop doing business with you. Now if it kept repeatly happening... Maybe yes to both. Shows a repeated lack of judgement. One time is a blip. 3248[/snapback] You know what is grounds for the roofing company to stop doing business with your company? Whatever THEY feel is grounds. Period. How do you as the (fictional) drunk carrying on at a football game get to decide what your customer should or shouldn't do? They could stop doing biz with you for wearing a purple shirt if they felt like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 No. And it it is not grounds for that roofing company to stop doing business with you. Now if it kept repeatly happening... Maybe yes to both. Shows a repeated lack of judgement. One time is a blip. 3248[/snapback] But you see, its a matter of opinion. You may not think its a big problem, but some people will. It may have been a one-time blip, but I can guarantee you that many employers wouldn't give you a second. Indeed, many companies, including the small bank I work for, ask you to use some discretion in the way you conduct your personal life. This is especially true if this person happened to hold a fairly high profile position within the company. Anything you do to embarrass yourself could potentially embarrass the company, too, and many employers won't tolerate that, nor should they have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 You know what is grounds for the roofing company to stop doing business with your company? Whatever THEY feel is grounds. Period. How do you as the (fictional) drunk carrying on at a football game get to decide what your customer should or shouldn't do? They could stop doing biz with you for wearing a purple shirt if they felt like it. 3443[/snapback] Exacly. It's funny how people like Exiled forget that little thing called FREEDOM when it comes to business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Exacly. It's funny how people like Exiled forget that little thing called FREEDOM when it comes to business. 3466[/snapback] Is FREEDOM doing exactly what you want? No matter what? Obviously, given these examples, there would probably be more grounds to fire someone. Things just don't go bad in one night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Is FREEDOM doing exactly what you want? No matter what? Obviously, given these examples, there would probably be more grounds to fire someone. Things just don't go bad in one night. 4108[/snapback] I was cut off with this reply... I had to get a tow situated... I didn't want to argue with my boss... ! The scenarios that are growing in this thread have been getting to be a little more extreme than in the original thread topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 The scenarios that are growing in this thread have been getting to be a little more extreme than in the original thread topic right, hecking THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is much less of a deal than being an ass at a football game..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 right, hecking THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is much less of a deal than being an ass at a football game..... 4184[/snapback] I think it is. Wasn't our country founded on the priciples for free dissent? Who cares about the lousy football game... That is avoidable and not necessary. He is JUST the prez... Who made him king? Our founders would be proud. Is heckling a bad thing?... You guys live in this bi-partisan dream world we seem to espouse the last 100 years. Get real and let's get back to our roots... Let's get political! Why the decorum, and pomp now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Good orators can't be heckled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 EEI - Heckle all you want. do what you want- it's your right. it's also my right to fire you if it's going to affect my business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 "I grew up in Lake Wobegon, a town where the Lutherans drive Fords, the Catholics drive Chevies, and if you drove something else, you were watched pretty closely. There was freedom of speech there, pretty much like there was freedom to jump off the roof and fly --- you could do it, but there were consequences." -- Garrison Keillor Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can't be fired from your job resulting from what you say. His freedom of speech is still intact, but he has to do it elsewhere. That part of the First Amendment was really designed to make it hard for the government to put you in jail b/c of words that come out of your mouth (it's been done tho!, and for some rather benign stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 EEI - Heckle all you want. do what you want- it's your right. it's also my right to fire you if it's going to affect my business. 4226[/snapback] Does it really affect your business, when it gets political? If it does that is a shame. If it does, doesn't it tacitly show that people are in cahoots about what they think? I think it is unethical to fire somebody because he has a different political view than you. I also believe it is unethical to stop doing business on these grounds. But, what are ethics? I can see your point though. Fair enough I think this very serious... We wnat free thinking in this country without fear of retailiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Its becoming troubling that youre not getting the point that this has NOTHING to do with politics or political views and is simply about someone on company time and representing his employer acting badly. 4256[/snapback] So expressing a differnent view point is bad? Why does it make the boss look bad? Why give him the tix if he is not going to express his opinion? What was the point in giving them to him? So he can tow the line? Say I work for a Chicago company, a client gives me tickets to the Bears vs. Bills. Do I have to root for the Bears? Can't I "heckle" the Bears and "root" for the Bills... WTF? I think the above is a closer scenario. You guys are cold-hearted, scumbag republicans ... Do I hold it against you? OF COURSE NOT. Would I do business with you, OF COURSE! If I didn't, it would be PERSONAL. ONLY KIDDING! (the scumbag part) Geeze, will these tows ever stop... What is this work?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Say I work for a Chicago company, a client gives me tickets to the Bears vs. Bills. Do I have to root for the Bears? Can't I "heckle" the Bears and "root" for the Bills... WTF? Sure you can root for the bills, but if you get thrown out for your behaviour your boss has a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Why is that an embarrassment? Not thinking like you is considered an embarassment? Is speaking your political mind illegal? So it boils down to the simple fact that if you don't agree politically with your boss he can fire you? This is wrong on so many fronts I can't help but wonder if you're just taking a position for the sake of taking a position. Any reputable boss would have done the same thing REGARDLESS of where it took place. The simple fact that it took place at a Bush event is a moot point and it is so obviously clear that the only person who would take the opposing view...as I stated...is simply looking to stir the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Say I work for a Chicago company, a client gives me tickets to the Bears vs. Bills. Do I have to root for the Bears? Can't I "heckle" the Bears and "root" for the Bills... WTF? What you do is show respect for the people who got your tickets and keep your piehole shut. Respect. That's what this is about. And to act any other way is just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 If he cost me a major client he's be gone. I'll win the lawsuit. There is such a thing as using one's brain and common sense. This shows a marked lack of discretion and forethought. At the least, as an employer this lets me know that this is not an individual who can be relied on to navigate the nuances and politics of the business world. This is an employee who exhibits terribly poor judgement and I'd be wondering why I hired him to start with. If I ever did anything like that I would expect to have the pink slip hanging on my doorknob went I got back to the house. I would go as far as to say it could possibly cost me my security clearance-not because of politics but for the lack of discretion and judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 If he cost me a major client he's be gone. I'll win the lawsuit. There is such a thing as using one's brain and common sense. This shows a marked lack of discretion and forethought. At the least, as an employer this lets me know that this is not an individual who can be relied on to navigate the nuances and politics of the business world. This is an employee who exhibits terribly poor judgement and I'd be wondering why I hired him to start with. If I ever did anything like that I would expect to have the pink slip hanging on my doorknob went I got back to the house. I would go as far as to say it could possibly cost me my security clearance-not because of politics but for the lack of discretion and judgement. 4758[/snapback] To make matters worse, the moron is surprised and upset that he was fired. Well, he should look good in a McDonalds uniform. Most people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 To make matters worse, the moron is surprised and upset that he was fired. Well, he should look good in a McDonalds uniform. Most people do. 4761[/snapback] I am hoping that those arguing against this point are just pulling our leg. This is so obvious it's not even funny. This is not remotely a fired for free speech issue, but I'm sure it can be made into one. What happens if I don't want fries with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 "I grew up in Lake Wobegon, a town where the Lutherans drive Fords, the Catholics drive Chevies, and if you drove something else, you were watched pretty closely. There was freedom of speech there, pretty much like there was freedom to jump off the roof and fly --- you could do it, but there were consequences." -- Garrison KeillorFreedom of speech doesn't mean you can't be fired from your job resulting from what you say. His freedom of speech is still intact, but he has to do it elsewhere. That part of the First Amendment was really designed to make it hard for the government to put you in jail b/c of words that come out of your mouth (it's been done tho!, and for some rather benign stuff). 4235[/snapback] Then have enough friggen common sense to use the proper forum and the proper methods. Yelling crap at a pep rally against the other team just looks stupid, and extremely immature. Damn, have some dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 This is wrong on so many fronts I can't help but wonder if you're just taking a position for the sake of taking a position. Any reputable boss would have done the same thing REGARDLESS of where it took place. The simple fact that it took place at a Bush event is a moot point and it is so obviously clear that the only person who would take the opposing view...as I stated...is simply looking to stir the pot. 4744[/snapback] This ties in with your later reply. What is troubling is that you guys do not see the importance of the political debate. It is not a question of one-sided respect. It has to be mutual, that means both sides have to respect each other's political thought. There are very severe consequences for "just" showing respect. What is the point in politics if you can't freely debate, discuss, and possibly dissent? I can can see your point about every other scenario's EXCEPT when it come to political debate. There are too many ramifications at stake in what my detractors state. I believe in this strongly and not trying to stir the pot. I strongly believe that this goes for everybody and anybody. It is not a feedom of speech issue alone. It is fundemental to political debate. That political debate should have no constraints, limits, and decorum AT TIMES. EII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 If he cost me a major client he's be gone. I'll win the lawsuit. There is such a thing as using one's brain and common sense. This shows a marked lack of discretion and forethought. At the least, as an employer this lets me know that this is not an individual who can be relied on to navigate the nuances and politics of the business world. This is an employee who exhibits terribly poor judgement and I'd be wondering why I hired him to start with. If I ever did anything like that I would expect to have the pink slip hanging on my doorknob went I got back to the house. I would go as far as to say it could possibly cost me my security clearance-not because of politics but for the lack of discretion and judgement. 4758[/snapback] I guess money is more important to you than the country and its founding roots that gave you the freedom to conduct that business? We have really become myopic in the pursuit of the almighty buck. The problem is once one person starts to think like you just stated, all the rest have to follow suit to keep up. Truly, truly, sad... Maybe there should be a separation of business and politics? It seems that people in the late 20th/early 21st century are treating business as we once did religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 This ties in with your later reply. What is troubling is that you guys do not see the importance of the political debate. It is not a question of one-sided respect. It has to be mutual, that means both sides have to respect each other's political thought. There are very severe consequences for "just" showing respect. What is the point in politics if you can't freely debate, discuss, and possibly dissent? I can can see your point about every other scenario's EXCEPT when it come to political debate. There are too many ramifications at stake in what my detractors state. I believe in this strongly and not trying to stir the pot. I strongly believe that this goes for everybody and anybody. It is not a feedom of speech issue alone. It is fundemental to political debate. That political debate should have no constraints, limits, and decorum AT TIMES. EII 4784[/snapback] It has nothing to do with "seeing the importance" of political debate. Almost everyone here does that every day. There is a proper time and place for such endeavors and this was quite obviously not such. You want to go down and stand on the steps of city hall and protest to your heart's content? Have at it. You want to wear your employer's uniform or scream out where you work for everyone to hear while doing it? You run the risk of being fired. This has everything to do with common sense and nothing to do with "freedom of speech" - which is what people are hiding behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Then have enough friggen common sense to use the proper forum and the proper methods. Yelling crap at a pep rally against the other team just looks stupid, and extremely immature. Damn, have some dignity. 4772[/snapback] Again POLITICS here. Why curb the passion? What is stupid and undignified might be a major emo point to somebody else? I am just dumbfounded at the lack of insight about the importance that political debate should have. It is a sign of the times. FREE DEBATE (without fear of retailiation from ANYBODY) is the CORNERSTONE of a FREE society. It is the paragon sacred conerstone. ONE MORE TIME... THERE ARE NO CONSTRAINTS TO THE POLITICAL DEBATE. I did say debate, debate is a inherently VERBAL thing... Don't confuse it with PHYSICAL force. Again, did the heckler stand up and announce that "I am Joe Blow, and my boss Bill Doe of Doe and Company, endorses this." ?? If he did, then the boss has a right to fire him. Was he on official time? The problem nowadays is things are getting blurred, personal, we assume way to much. I don't understand why I am arguing this with very closed minded people. Just handle it, don't take it personal. Things do get ugly, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 It has nothing to do with "seeing the importance" of political debate. Almost everyone here does that every day. There is a proper time and place for such endeavors and this was quite obviously not such. You want to go down and stand on the steps of city hall and protest to your heart's content? Have at it. You want to wear your employer's uniform or scream out where you work for everyone to hear while doing it? You run the risk of being fired. This has everything to do with common sense and nothing to do with "freedom of speech" - which is what people are hiding behind. 4789[/snapback] No there is not (proper place and time) when you are not officially in the compacity of your job?. I don't take he was. Implying just doesn't cut it, you either were or weren't. The political spectrum has no constraints. Was the guy wearing a company uniform? Offiicial time? The thing he should have done is declined the tickets from the client if he was going to speak freely, attended on his own behalf. Would he have been able to get tickets on his own behalf? I take not? I was waiting for you to jump in AD. I am not totally surprised by your stance on decorum... A little dismayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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