Exactly how bad are we?

[Dibs]

I sit here & read post after post about how bad our lines are & how difficult it is to fix them.

Here's the thing....HOW BAD ARE THEY REALLY?

Assuming we wish to solidify the lines this year(& not aim for greatness just yet)

 

D-LINE

 

DE: Most would agree we are solid. Schobel, Kelsay & Denney if not good (though I think combined they are), are certainly solid.

 

DT: Larry Tripplett is probably the only legit starter but the backups could step up & become solid rotation guys....1 starter needed

 

O-LINE

 

RT: Solid(with upside) in Jason Peters

 

RG: Most analysts I read are still saying Villarrial is an anchor for our line...Good(for a few more years)

 

C: With the importation of Fowler one would have to say we are minimally O.K.(with upside)...Duke Preston should be able to pick up the slack if Fowler falters.

 

LG: Hmmm...Benny Anderson(mush maligned & deservedly so). If Fowler sticks at center, Preston could start(potential). Gibson is the dark horse here but...Overall questionable here.

 

LT: From what I hear, Gandy is still serviceable. He will get the job done(just not overly well)

 

O-line....1 starter needed + some luck

 

Anyone would think it was as bad as the Cardinals lines. Wells(who we went after) was their most consistent lineman. They lost their best DT(Davis) to the Hawks.

Look at half the teams around, we compare easily to a lot of them.

 

Is it just my optimism or are the lines not as bad as most bleat about?

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

I sit here & read post after post about how bad our lines are & how difficult it is to fix them.

Here's the thing....HOW BAD ARE THEY REALLY?

Assuming we wish to solidify the lines this year(& not aim for greatness just yet)

 

D-LINE

 

DE: Most would agree we are solid.  Schobel, Kelsay & Denney if not good (though I think combined they are), are certainly solid.

 

DT: Larry Tripplett is probably the only legit starter but the backups could step up & become solid rotation guys....1 starter needed

 

O-LINE

 

RT: Solid(with upside) in Jason Peters

 

RG: Most analysts I read are still saying Villarrial is an anchor for our line...Good(for a few more years)

 

C: With the importation of Fowler one would have to say we are minimally O.K.(with upside)...Duke Preston should be able to pick up the slack if Fowler falters.

 

LG: Hmmm...Benny Anderson(mush maligned & deservedly so).  If Fowler sticks at center, Preston could start(potential).  Gibson is the dark horse here but...Overall questionable here.

 

LT: From what I hear, Gandy is still serviceable.  He will get the job done(just not overly well)

 

O-line....1 starter needed + some luck

 

Anyone would think it was as bad as the Cardinals lines.  Wells(who we went after) was their most consistent lineman.  They lost their best DT(Davis) to the Hawks.

Look at half the teams around, we compare easily to a lot of them.

 

Is it just my optimism or are the lines not as bad as most bleat about?

656981[/snapback]

 

The biggest surprised is that the Bills still have Gandy and Anderson. Both players were horrible last year.

[Nick in RaChaCha]

The biggest surprised is that the Bills still have Gandy and Anderson.  Both players were horrible last year.

656982[/snapback]

 

I seem to recall that Gandy play well in the last 8 games of the season. I wish people would stop using him as TD's whipping boy.

[bluv]

I seem to recall that Gandy play well in the last 8 games of the season.  I wish people would stop using him as TD's whipping boy.

656997[/snapback]

AMEN! Gandy was not as bad as some make him out to be. Now Benny was garbage; if we can find a solid LG, get Villireal to step his game up a notch and/or Fowler or Duke can push the middle better than Teague then Gandy/ Peters are more than serviceable. While most want to bash this combo, in reality they are our best OL as most of our problems exist between the tackles in both the pass protection and running game. Think about it; how many games have you seen this tackle combo get abused by the other teams DEs? Don't get me wrong, we can definitely do better than this combo but then again it could be a lot worse. You can't have and keep a Pro Bowler at every position on the line in todays NFL with free agency.

[grampalevy]

" You can't have and keep a Pro Bowler at every position on the line in todays NFL with free agency."

657024[/snapback]

In regards to their offensive line...

We don't even have a starter let alone a Pro Bowler in those positions. We've built our o-line with poor draft day decisions and other teams scrap's for free agents. Villarrial, Anderson and Gandy wouldn’t even be on most team's depth charts. They left as their previous teams without a fight.

 

Gandy played okay(over his head) but he was also playing for his life in the NFL...look for his production to drop. If he didn't start at Left Tackle for us he was out of the NFL.

 

Villarrial is the old man that most teams would be looking to replace. but He's our center piece.

 

Anderson got a standing ovation when he left Baltimore.

 

Peters is a project that was supposed to be a left tackle that played TE and then had to move to the right side. Hopefully we haven't screwed him up.

 

Trey Teague will need to pay his next team to just be on their sideline.

 

THIS WAS OUR STARTING LINE!!!!! More holes than the TITANIC.

[Ozymandius]

Our trenches are horrible. What exacerbates their suckitude, though, is that on offense, we're planning on going to a downfield passing game, and on defense, we're going to Cover 2 which requires great athletes on the defensive line. In the entire NFL, we are probably dead last in terms of players in the trenches that fit the team's system.

 

If we want to be a good team, we will need no less than three new defensive tackles (one under tackle, and two over tackles, including a starting over tackle), two new defensive ends (including a new starter at LDE), two new guards (both starters), and a new starting LT.

[BuffOrange]

Our trenches are horrible.  What exacerbates their suckitude, though, is that on offense, we're planning on going to a downfield passing game, and on defense, we're going to Cover 2 which requires great athletes on the defensive line.  In the entire NFL, we are probably dead last in terms of players in the trenches that fit the team's system.

 

If we want to be a good team, we will need no less than three new defensive tackles (one under tackle, and two over tackles, including a starting over tackle), two new defensive ends (including a new starter at LDE), two new guards (both starters), and a new starting LT.

657032[/snapback]

 

I don't know about 3 DT's but I agree for the most part. I can't believe people are still sticking up for the disastrous Kelsay/Denney duo.

[Fan in San Diego]

Our biggest improvement on the OL was addition by subtraction. Teague got bullrushed way to often. Hopefully Fowler can anchor the position and stop the bull rush. The rest of the OL would crumble when Teague got pushed back right after snapping the ball. This will make a huge improvement if Fowler can stop the bull rush.

[BADOLBILZ]

I sit here & read post after post about how bad our lines are & how difficult it is to fix them.

Here's the thing....HOW BAD ARE THEY REALLY?

Assuming we wish to solidify the lines this year(& not aim for greatness just yet)

 

D-LINE

 

DE: Most would agree we are solid.  Schobel, Kelsay & Denney if not good (though I think combined they are), are certainly solid.

 

DT: Larry Tripplett is probably the only legit starter but the backups could step up & become solid rotation guys....1 starter needed

 

O-LINE

 

RT: Solid(with upside) in Jason Peters

 

RG: Most analysts I read are still saying Villarrial is an anchor for our line...Good(for a few more years)

 

C: With the importation of Fowler one would have to say we are minimally O.K.(with upside)...Duke Preston should be able to pick up the slack if Fowler falters.

 

LG: Hmmm...Benny Anderson(mush maligned & deservedly so).  If Fowler sticks at center, Preston could start(potential).  Gibson is the dark horse here but...Overall questionable here.

 

LT: From what I hear, Gandy is still serviceable.  He will get the job done(just not overly well)

 

O-line....1 starter needed + some luck

 

Anyone would think it was as bad as the Cardinals lines.  Wells(who we went after) was their most consistent lineman.  They lost their best DT(Davis) to the Hawks.

Look at half the teams around, we compare easily to a lot of them.

 

Is it just my optimism or are the lines not as bad as most bleat about?

656981[/snapback]

 

It's your optimism. We have 1 offensive lineman who played well last year, Peters. The rest were ineffective last season. Villarial, Fowler, Gandy and Anderson can all play in a 32 team NFL, but it's doubtful you could have a good line with more than ONE of those guys starting, let alone 4 of them.

 

On the DL, the Bills have no DT's that could start for a good defense. None. Triplett is a rotation player, not a foundation player. Tim Anderson was worse than awful last year and has very limited upside. Those are the starters at DT right now. Kelsay could be decent on a very talented DL, but he's not an impact player and this line is not talented. Schobel is the only above average DL the Bills have, and he doesn't have the ability to raise the level of the rest of the players on that line.

[superbowl]

One of the real unknowns here is Gibson. When players are given a second chance they sometimes make the most of it. I find it very interesting that he had his best season under Jauron in Chicago. This is truly a wildcard signing.

 

Having said this I still believe that we need one or two decent picks on the offensive line early on in the draft. Like most people will tell you it all starts up front (OL and DL).

[Typical TBD Guy]

If you want serviceable as opposed to the disaster that was last year (and last decade for the OL), we just need:

 

1 starting LG

1 starting DT

 

who could each probably be picked up in the first day of the upcoming draft. And this isn't accounting for depth, so if injuries occur say goodbye to "serviceable."

 

If you want the Bills to be among the top 12 in OL and DL (i.e., playoff competitive), we need:

 

1 starting DE

1 starting DT

1 backup DT

1 backup G

2 backup T's

1 starting LT

1 starting LG

1 starting RG (or a healthy Villarial)

(I'm assuming Fowler and Peters live up to Marv's expectations)

 

So that's 9 new players. With good drafting and a little more effort put into the remaining free agents, we could fill up to 6 of these holes now and finish up the job next offseason. Here's one way this could happen:

 

Draft starting DT Ngata/Bunkley in first round

Draft starting LG Joseph in second round

Draft DT in 3rd round or in day 2

Draft OT in 3rd round or in day 2

Draft G in late round or in next year's draft

Draft OT in late round or in next year's draft

Sign DE Lance Johnstone as starter for this season

Leave Gandy and Villarial as starters for this season

Use our favorable cap space next year to sign/draft a starting DE, LT, and RG for the future.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

I seem to recall that Gandy play well in the last 8 games of the season.  I wish people would stop using him as TD's whipping boy.

656997[/snapback]

 

Played well in the last 8 games for us... sure

 

 

Played well enough to prove he'd start at lt for other teams around the league hardly. Gandy is an above average backup and maybe a starter at rg on some teams, but he shouldn't be a lt. This has been our problem the past few years putting players where they really shouldn't be playing.

 

 

To the original post. Our trenches are horrible....

 

Defense-

 

de- we have one solid de in schobel, and 2 ok backups in kelsay and denney. It would be very nice to bring in a pass rusher opposite schobel.

 

Dt- I like Larry Triplett hopefully he's just a start moving away from the fat slobs of years past to quicker interior dt's. We lack anything behind him. Tim Anderson might have some potential at a rotation guy but god help us if he's ever a starter. I see the need for at least 2 dt's.

 

 

Offense-

 

LT- Already explained my feelings on gandy. Drafting a LT and using gandy as a swing man or in comp against villarrial would be a good start to improving the oline.

 

LG- I loved Aaron Gibson when he came out a few years ago and I consider him an intriguing question mark, depending on his size. I like the way preston played last year filling in for villarrial and even playing better then him last year, If not Gibson or a draftee I'd like to see Preston win out here.

 

C- Melvin Fowler. For all intents and purposes seems similar to trey teague physically but more of a natural center as opposed to being forced into the position. I consider this spot already upgraded, but if Mangold is their in the 2nd pull the damn trigger otherwise I feel we're ok here.

 

Rg- Chris Villarrial- I don't feel we're ok here. I'd really like to get Younger here. Villarrial seemed to be showing the wear and tear of a olinemen his age last year and I have reservations about if he can step up his play. Draftee to sit behind him for a year and replace him towards the middle of the season or 07 would be the best way to go.

 

Rt- Jason Peters. I felt this was the wrong move last year, as he would've been better served as a blocking te, but he started to prove me wrong especially towards the end of the season. Hopefully he continues to improve.

 

 

All in all I think the dline is much worse off then the oline and needs more overall additions.

[Simon]

I seem to recall that Gandy play well in the last 8 games of the season.  I wish people would stop using him as TD's whipping boy.

656997[/snapback]

He played well in the first 8 too.

He may not be purdy, and he may not be a world-beater. But he did get the job done.

[bluv]

He played well in the first 8 too.

He may not be purdy, and he may not be a world-beater. But he did get the job done.

657153[/snapback]

Exactly. While I wouldn't be against an upgrade at LT, an upgrade at both guard position and center is needed more. If we had any road grinders in the middle then Gandy or Peters play would get the job done. The only negative I can point out is that Peters is not the run blocker MW was for once he went down so did the running game as maligned as he was, he was only true body mover. If the guards and centers can establish a running game up the gut and be adequate pass protectors then our tackles can get the job done; maybe not All-Pros but adequate.

[PromoTheRobot]

Considering we haven't had the draft yet, or been through June 1st cap cuts, I would hold off judging the state of the team, since we don't know what our team will look like until July.

 

PTR

[Dibs]

Considering we haven't had the draft yet, or been through June 1st cap cuts, I would hold off judging the state of the team, since we don't know what our team will look like until July.

 

PTR

657318[/snapback]

 

True, but this is an exercise for all of us experts to evaluate what we have now & where we think things could/should/need to improve.

 

Even after July, IMHO we won't know what we have until we have played several games....but it's still fun speculating

[Rubes]

For those of us that feel that it all starts and ends with the quality of each line, ours are woefully lacking.

 

To get to a point where the lines are a strength of this team, it will take at least a couple of years. Others are correct in pointing out that we only have 1/2 of a starting defensive line in Schobel and Triplett. Denney and Kelsay would be good backups, but at this point nothing more. We'll probably fill one of these holes in the draft, but to complete a foursome that can dominate will probably take another off season.

 

The offensive line is such a question mark I don't even know how long it will take. But the fact of the matter is that we haven't a single player that could even take a sniff of the Pro Bowl. Fowler? He might, might, be a serviceable center, but we don't know. Villareal could be solid if he could stay healthy. Peters could be solid if he takes another step forward this year. Gandy is average, maybe solid on a good day. And our LG position is a blank slate.

 

For this group to reach a dominant state, it will take years. We don't really have anyone that looks like they can step up this year to become Pro-Bowl-caliber, although I could be surprised. It's hard to project if any of those positions is really solidified for the long-term. Fowler and Peters probably give the best potential for this, but who knows.

 

It will take this draft and another off season or two to get where we need to be.

[krazykat]

DE: Most would agree we are solid.  Schobel, Kelsay & Denney if not good (though I think combined they are), are certainly solid.

 

DT: Larry Tripplett is probably the only legit starter but the backups could step up & become solid rotation guys....1 starter needed

 

O-LINE

 

RT: Solid(with upside) in Jason Peters

 

RG: Most analysts I read are still saying Villarrial is an anchor for our line...Good(for a few more years)

 

C: With the importation of Fowler one would have to say we are minimally O.K.(with upside)...Duke Preston should be able to pick up the slack if Fowler falters.

 

LG: Hmmm...Benny Anderson(mush maligned & deservedly so).  If Fowler sticks at center, Preston could start(potential).  Gibson is the dark horse here but...Overall questionable here.

 

LT: From what I hear, Gandy is still serviceable.  He will get the job done(just not overly well)

 

656981[/snapback]

 

DE: Most agree we're solid? Huh? Most think that Kelsay and Denney aren't starter caliber. Only homers here think differently.

 

Tripplett's a legit starter? Then why didn't he start in Indy?

 

Peters started what, four games?

 

Fowler was strictly a backup. He's getting the money that Teague got to play LT.

 

Anderson and Gandy were penalty factories last season and combined for over half the penalties of all players that played line.

 

You say from what you hear. Didn't you watch the games last season?

[Shamrock]

Gibson is the dark horse here but...

 

It's one gift horse i wouldn't back.

 

I would be suprised if Gibson pans out. He pretty much became to Detroit what MW did in Buffalo. Gibson ran out his welcome a little more quickly than MW, probably because MW was a #4 overall and Gibson #27. Gibson was a beast at Wisconson, blocking for Ron Dayne...Unfortunatley Gibson will probably = MW in terms of package offered- happy to be 370lbs of potential.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ayers/3801.html

 

Give me an O-lineman with an Antoine Winfield sized heart, someone who wants to smack heads and drive block someone's ssa back to their own endzone.

[Dibs]

DE:  Most agree we're solid?  Huh?  Most think that Kelsay and Denney aren't starter caliber.  Only homers here think differently. 

 

Tripplett's a legit starter?  Then why didn't he start in Indy? 

 

Peters started what, four games? 

 

Fowler was strictly a backup.  He's getting the money that Teague got to play LT. 

 

Anderson and Gandy were penalty factories last season and combined for over half the penalties of all players that played line. 

 

You say from what you hear.  Didn't you watch the games last season?

657367[/snapback]

 

No, as it happens. I live in Australia & only get to watch the Bills play when they are Nationally televised or if our FOX network surprises us with a game.

I get up every Monday morning at 2:45am(4:45am Daylight Savings) to listen to the Bills games over the internet.

If you read your fellow Bills fans thoughts here you will see that opinion(as usual) is divided. Quite a few think Gandy can certainly get the job done & that our DEs likewise can get the job done. People are not saying they are good enough for us to be contenders, just they will make do for now(until we can find better).

 

You put forward your 'opinion' aggressively as if it is gospel. Is there a reason why when you see an opinion with a slight optimistic slant you get angry?

In my previous post I said it is fun speculating....well people like you do take the fun out of things a bit.

 

By the way(& I know it is just some opinion & I should take yours over this but), Scout Inc. rate Denney at 69...which is Adequate Starter. Solid Starter(for their system) is 70-74.

Ryan Denney:

Grade: 69

Expert's Take: Denney has edge speed and a consistent get-off. He has great size and very good upper-body strength. He can accelerate and close on quarterbacks. He works hard with his hands to disengage from blocks on the pass rush. He is a bit of a long strider but runs well. His recognition skills are solid, and he seldom is out of position. He is tough and plays with good leverage, especially for his height. He is a strong tackler who can uncoil and club up with his arms. He sometimes plays with a narrow base, loses his balance and gets off his feet. He lacks initial foot quickness and ideal change-of-direction skills. His body control isn't great. He can lose his leverage and is vulnerable to the double team. He plays hard, but his effort to finish plays is inconsistent. He effectively uses several pass-rush techniques but needs to develop more explosiveness and a better sense of timing.