TKO is the best linebacker the Bills ever had

[AKC]

You never saw James play did you?

441460[/snapback]

 

In my eyes the best player ever to wear our uniform. He changed the whole game of pass coverage forever and the CB position evolved as a result of the types of athletes picked to play there because of him.

[VABills]

In my eyes the best player ever to wear our uniform. He changed the whole game of pass coverage forever and the CB position evolved as a result of the types of athletes picked to play there because of him.

441469[/snapback]

James never had the "INT" stats, but I believe he went 3 straight years without a TD being thrown against him. In addition, like Winfield he could flat out tackle. But he was LB or something in college and had to switch.

[dave mcbride]

Thanks for bringing in those stats that really show London's superiority- Takeo started right out of the chute and actually played in the tackle-friendly environment at ILB in a 3-4 scheme, a benfit London has never had. London also played almost nothing but ST in his first season and was situational in his second, not starting in either season as far as I remember. This menas for all intents and purposes it has taken Takeo two NFL seasons more to accrue a number of tackles similar to London.

 

And the sack stat may be even more revealing- most experts would give the WLB spot a far, far greater opportunity for building up fat sack stats than coming from the middle.

441455[/snapback]

 

ok. i guess this means that harry carson was a better linebacker than LT. he had more tackles, right?

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

In my eyes the best player ever to wear our uniform. He changed the whole game of pass coverage forever and the CB position evolved as a result of the types of athletes picked to play there because of him.

441469[/snapback]

 

Career ended early because of injury as I remember.

[The Dean]

I just want to say:

 

THIS is what the Wall is about, IMO (except, of course, for the great OT threads). Both sides are making compelling arguments and there is, for the most part, respect for the others' opinions.

 

When Kelly the Dog, formerly Dick Smub, AKC and other respected TSW members are chiming in...well...all I can say is BEAUTIFUL!

 

[Campy]

If we're talking an All-Bills team, how can someone not mention George Saimes?

[VABills]

Career ended early because of injury as I remember.

441493[/snapback]

Yeah he blew a knee out. They couldn't rebuild them like they do today.

 

I believe it was preseason non-the-less.

[VABills]

If we're talking an All-Bills team, how can someone not mention George Saimes?

441497[/snapback]

 

Because they are too young. If it didn't happen in the last 10 years, they aren't the best ever. Don't you know how the hot pockets work. It about the here and now.

[34-78-83]

Honestly, the way some of you are comparing Flectch and Spikes is interesting but simply does not jive. You can't statistically compare a WLB to a MLB in a 4-3. There is just no measure that would do it justice. All we are left with is personal preference or (like I tried to do) a comparison based on speculation if their roles were switched. There is a lot of good analysis here anyhow and it's a good sign that 2 of our linebackers are this good.

[LewPort71]

Mike Stratton....

[AKC]

ok. i guess this means that harry carson was a better linebacker than LT. he had more tackles, right?

441491[/snapback]

 

I'll hear your argument- you're saying you believe Carson was better than LT. You might start by sharing those stats and observations that support your contention just as those of us who believe the quality levels between London and Takeo are greatly exaggerated have done in this string.

[dave mcbride]

I'll hear your argument- you're saying you believe Carson was better than LT. You might start by sharing those stats and observations that support your contention just as those of us who believe the quality levels between London and Takeo are greatly exaggerated have done in this string.

441546[/snapback]

 

taylor's career best was 133 tackles. in 13 seasons, carson led the team in tackles 5 times. I can't find stats for him, but i've heard enough times about how many tackles he piled up in his career to be able to say that he was a tackling machine and made more tackles than taylor. carson had 20 tackles and 5 assists in 1982 game against green bay, for what it's worth.

 

that being said, and despite your snappy comment about me saying carson was better than LT, anyone who knows anything about football can tell you that LT was far more dominating than carson (an excellent player in his own right). LT changed the game and the LB position specifically, and for 10 years was the most feared defensive player in the game. he was one of the greatest ever at being able to get to the qb while also being able to drop back in coverage.

 

as for how this relates to spikes v. fletcher, well, spikes is far better in coverage (notice how the bills short passing defense improved dramatically between 02 and 03), is a far more disruptive player behind the LOS, and creates more turnovers. guys who effectively cover receivers in space don't get a lot of tackles, because the qb ain't throwing the ball that way.

 

you can spin it any way you want, but just because fletcher -- a good but hardly great player, in my opinion -- gets a lot of tackles, it doesn't mean he can take things away from an opponent's offensive game plan. spikes does this. fletcher had a lot of tackles in 02, but looked lost in coverage and was literally eaten alive by your bete noire, tom brady, on two occasions that year. and it's not like the bills were taking anything away from anybody's game plan that year -- teams pretty much feasted on the bills d. on opening day the following year, the bills killed the pats, due in no small part to the awesome play of spikes, who made 3 or 4 plays behind the LOS and intercepted a pass. one game, to be sure, but pretty indicative.

 

one final comment: most people here seem to believe that donohoe, whatever his faults, can accurately place value on a player. look how much he paid spikes v. fletcher. spikes got a signing bonus more than twice the value of fletcher's. and look who has made the pro bowl. it's not as if spikes was a higher profile player either -- fletcher played in 2 super bowls while spikes toiled with the bengals.

[Guest BackInDaDay]

No love for John Skorpan?

[1959BillsFan]

This team has been gifted with way above average LBs throughout the years.

 

Did you know Paul McGuire was actually listed as a LB, not a Punter???

 

There was Mike Stratton, Stew Barber, Harry Jacobs in the AFL days; John Skorpan (but the D at the time was real do-do);Jim Haslett and Shane Nelson (Bermuda Triangle fame); my Mom loved Eugene Marve and Lucius Sanford; Daryl Talley was heart and sole during ther SB run; Shane Conlan was prttty darned good; Bryce Paup and Chris Speilman were Pro-Bowlers, Free Agents, but pro-bowlers.

 

Marty Shotenheimer couldn't make it in Buffalo because of all the LBs we had. OK, maybe he wasn't the greatest LB either.

 

My point: this club has had a history of pretty darn good LBs.

[mphs mike]

I hope someone else added Mike Stratton to this debate before I did. He was top notch for an unbelievable defense in a high scorring, gun slinging AFL.

[mphs mike]

Tom Cousineau and Walt Patulski were the two best in my eyes.

440970[/snapback]

 

 

Wasn't Patulski a defensive end or has my memory failed me?

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Honestly,  the way some of you are comparing Flectch and Spikes is interesting but simply does not jive. You can't statistically compare a WLB to a MLB in a 4-3. There is just no measure that would do it justice. All we are left with is personal preference or (like I tried to do) a comparison based on speculation if their roles were switched. There is a lot of good analysis here anyhow and it's a good sign that 2 of our linebackers are this good. 

441535[/snapback]

 

The scary good thing here is that though some valued TSW posters rag on Posey as not being a good player, in know as I have looked at the Bills zone blitz and tried to understand what they are doing I have really grown to repsect his talent and play a lot.

 

Bertainly Spikes and Fletcher are better players, but there is a good argument that the key to our run blitz working as well as it does is actually seen in some very good play by Posey.

 

Its unfortunate that this play is actually not easily seen in stats as his role is not generally one of producing a lot of sacks the way he was employed last year nor even one of a lot of big open field hits that get a player noticed.

 

As best as I can tell though Posey has show great advanatages over his back-up Stamer in that the far more veteran Posey makes good reads as to whether players are lined up and the down and distance have led to a play call of a run or pass. He uses these reads and the play calls of Fletcher to back-up the DL at the POA on run plays or fall back into a zone or pick up a potential receiver in man-to-man correctly on most plays.

 

No one is perfect and neither is Posey, but one of the reasons the Bills proved to be statistically successful last year was some good consistent play by Posey at the other OLB slot.

 

I think the Bills really do have the best LB corps in the NFL and te even better news is that both Crowell and Haggen have been productive ST players and Stamer has been both a good back-up and also a productive ST player.

 

It is incredibly entertaining to watch our D perform.

[plenzmd1]

No love for John Skorpan? 

441659[/snapback]

 

I loved Villiapiano. Surely not in the class of TKO and Fletcher by the time he got here, but man he and Dobler and Simpson brought a winning attitude to a Bills team that desperately needed it. Funny story from the Bills website.

 

The Bills acquired several other veterans that season: defensive back Bill Simpson, receiver Ron Jessie, fullback Roosevelt Leaks and an offensive guard who had been referred to as the dirtiest player in the league and would become Villapiano’s running mate, Conrad Dobler.

 

"The last time I saw Conrad, he was with New Orleans," said Villapiano. "I had hurt my rib the week before playing against the Chiefs. I don’t know how he found out about it, but on the very first play of the game, he comes out and just throws a punch right into my rib, exactly where it was killing me. I knew he was a disgusting, dirty, rotten ballplayer, but right then, I found out for sure. Later in the game when they did a toss to Chuck Muncie, Conrad just kind of did a half-hearted pull and I came up from the side of him and I knew he had a bad neck, so I gave him a nice, big, fat elbow right under his facemask which really snaps your neck back. He had to leave the game which was wonderful. So then he came back in later and he looks up at me and he goes, ‘We’re even.’ That was like the first thing we ever said to each other. He and I had one big battle down there in New Orleans and then the next year we were teammates. We really got a kick out of that. I really liked the fact that Conrad was on the team because I knew he’d been in the playoffs before. He was a championship player and that’s what you need it you’re going to win. Guys that have been there."

[bdelma]

The biscuit. He had everything going including that chick in the hotel

[1959BillsFan]

Plenz,

Excellent quote. I remember the days when those two were here. Young, real young o-line. Chuck Knox wanted leadership, so he brings in Dobler.

 

Villiapiano too, he wanted dependable leadership there too.

 

Neither was here very long, but damn, I loved when they were playing. Went to the playoffs twice in a row when they were here. The next two years 2-14.

[Kelly the Dog]

Thanks for bringing in those stats that really show London's superiority- Takeo started right out of the chute and actually played in the tackle-friendly environment at ILB in a 3-4 scheme, a benfit London has never had. London also played almost nothing but ST in his first season and was situational in his second, not starting in either season as far as I remember. This menas for all intents and purposes it has taken Takeo two NFL seasons more to accrue a number of tackles similar to London.

 

And the sack stat may be even more revealing- most experts would give the WLB spot a far, far greater opportunity for building up fat sack stats than coming from the middle.

441455[/snapback]

IMO it's far, far easier to rack up tackle stats from the MLB in the Bills defense with Fat Sam right in front than outside where TKO plays. Fletcher can get to virtually all plays from where he is, with no blockers in front of him. TKO can get to two-thirds at most. And your early years analysis is thin at best. London clearly played a lot at LB in his second year unless you think he made 66 solo tackles on ST.

[Kelly the Dog]

I just want to see any of you jokers come right out in public and say that if you were GM or coach of the Bills and you HAD to choose one LB, all things considered, that you would surely sign London Fletcher and release Takeo Spikes.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I just want to see any of you jokers come right out in public and say that if you were GM or coach of the Bills and you HAD to choose one LB, all things considered, that you would surely sign London Fletcher and release Takeo Spikes.

441780[/snapback]

 

No prob. If I am a GM, my job is to build a team and cap hit issues are a big part of building a team, but I am happy to come right out in public and say that a debatable question of who where do Spikes and Fletcher fall as to who is a better LB is actually much less debatable for a GM confronted with a signing or cutting decision as you lay out.

 

Fletcher at a $3.8 million cap hit compared to Spikes at a $5.4 million cap hit (according to Clumpy\s cap page at Billszone.com) is a much better bang for the buck.

 

The Bills would have a horrible time trying to replace an outstanding player like Spikes, but it would be harder to replace your lead tackler, defensive signal caller, a team captain and critical ST player and have less cap room to do this.

 

I think the answer to your question is obvious but it is the reverse of what you seem to think it would be.

[AKC]

IMO it's far, far easier to rack up tackle stats from the MLB in the Bills defense with Fat Sam right in front than outside where TKO plays. Fletcher can get to virtually all plays from where he is, with no blockers in front of him. TKO can get to two-thirds at most. And your early years analysis is thin at best. London clearly played a lot at LB in his second year unless you think he made 66 solo tackles on ST. 

441771[/snapback]

 

I believe he was in their nickle and dime packages that second season while Takeo was playing ILB in the Cincy 3-4 as a starter.

 

The fact that London has more tackle ops at MLB is clear from how many more tackles he gets every year in our system than Takeo.

 

For your question below- yeah, I'd prefer to begin building my D with LF because there's no better bite for the buck on our team, which would then allow me to spend my big money in the interior DLine where I believe all the best contemporary NFL defenses begin- not out at WLB.

[ajflutie]

There was Mike Stratton, Stew Barber, Harry Jacobs in the AFL days; John Skorpan (but the D at the time was real do-do);Jim Haslett and Shane Nelson (Bermuda Triangle fame); my Mom loved Eugene Marve and Lucius Sanford; Daryl Talley was heart and sole during ther SB run; Shane Conlan was prttty darned good; Bryce Paup and Chris Speilman were Pro-Bowlers, Free Agents, but pro-bowlers.

 

441689[/snapback]

 

Stew Barber was an OT, you mean John Tracey

[AKC]

it's not as if spikes was a higher profile player either -- fletcher played in 2 super bowls while spikes toiled with the bengals.

441620[/snapback]

 

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

[Kelly the Dog]

No prob. If I am a GM, my job is to build a team and cap hit issues are a big part of building a team, but I am happy to come right out in public and say that a debatable question of who where do Spikes and Fletcher fall as to who is a better LB is actually much less debatable for a GM confronted with a signing or cutting decision as you lay out.

 

Fletcher at a $3.8 million cap hit compared to Spikes at a $5.4 million cap hit (according to Clumpy\s cap page at Billszone.com) is a much better bang for the buck.

 

The Bills would have a horrible time trying to replace an outstanding player like Spikes, but it would be harder to replace your lead tackler, defensive signal caller, a team captain and critical ST player and have less cap room to do this.

 

I think the answer to your question is obvious but it is the reverse of what you seem to think it would be.

441814[/snapback]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

[34-78-83]

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

441827[/snapback]

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying that Carson was the superior player

[dave mcbride]

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying that Carson was the superior player 

441839[/snapback]

you're not wrong. akc is just being akc (i.e., a tenacious smartass).

[dave mcbride]

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

441827[/snapback]

 

oh yeah - i forgot about that great super bowl winning d in st. louis. silly me.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

441833[/snapback]

 

 

While I appreciate your focus on me and my longwinded (photoned?) posts, the important thing (and fatr more interesting than you or me) thing in this discussion are the players and what a GM should do to build a team.

 

I think the case is this:

 

1. Most posters realize that it is foolish in reality to separate the stats of Spikes or Fletcher individually from the work of the other teammate because both the tackle leading totals of Fletcher or the highlight reel efforts of Spikes are intrinsically related to the efforts of the other player.

 

2. There us no need for reality to stop us though from ranting in the TSW world about which one is a better LB but the fact is which ever side you come down on in this popularity contest it is fortunately for Bills fans a close call.

 

3. The introduction of the GM issue adds the salary cap reality constraint to this debate and what is a close call fantasy debate about which player is better actually is more easily resolved as a bang for the buck question as the market value of Spikes bouyed by the highlight reel and Pro Bowl selection outweighs the signal calling we never here and ST performance which is undervalued generally by the average fan..

 

I'm noy sure where you are coming from at all with your introduction of the GM issue into this assessment. it does not help the pro-Spikes popularity contest assessment at all.

[BRH]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

441833[/snapback]

:)

[Lori]

I just want to say:

 

THIS is what the Wall is about, IMO (except, of course, for the great OT threads).  Both sides are making compelling arguments and there is, for the most part, respect for the others' opinions.

 

When Kelly the Dog, formerly Dik Smub, AKC and other respected TSW members are chiming in...well...all I can say is BEAUTIFUL!

 

441495[/snapback]

A-friggin'-men. Great thread. GREAT (bleep)ing thread, especially the Stratton takes (for us young'uns who remember him only from a couple of highlight clips).

 

The Fletch Faithful make a solid argument, but I think I'm leaning toward siding with KTD on this one - while LF quietly takes care of the heavy lifting and I'm damn glad to have him on "my" team, Spikes is the guy changing the numbers on the scoreboard.

 

IMO, Biscuit is the only one close - remember John Elway walking up to the line of scrimmage that first game, seeing #55 ready to come after him at 100mph, and immediately calling a timeout? I think TKO is approaching that level.

[The Dean]

IMO, Biscuit is the only one close - remember John Elway walking up to the line of scrimmage that first game, seeing #55 ready to come after him at 100mph, and immediately calling a timeout? I think TKO is approaching that level.

442040[/snapback]

 

Sure do and it was a thing of beauty. BTW, the thread got even stronger when you weighed in.

 

 

How's it goin', Lo?

[cåblelady]

Sure do and it was a thing of beauty.  BTW, the thread got even stronger when you weighed in.

 

442049[/snapback]

 

Hi -b.

[The Dean]

Hi -b. 

442054[/snapback]

 

Hey Cablebabe. How's everythang? BTW, does your system carry Current TV?

 

(Some of you bastards are going to try to make that last comment sound dirty...I know you guys.)

[AKC]

2. There us no need for reality to stop us though from ranting in the TSW world about which one is a better LB but the fact is which ever side you come down on in this popularity contest it is fortunately for Bills fans a close call.

 

441904[/snapback]

 

Regardless of the degree of devil's advocacy to anything said in this thread, there may actually be a right side of the discussion- I'd say it goes something like this:

 

"Any caliber gap between London Fletcher and Takeo Spikes is a tiny fraction of that assumed by the average Bill's fan."

[Fencesitter]

One of the finest games I ever saw a Bills linebacker play was by Damien Covington. His injury agains the Broncos cut way to short a career that could have had his name as part of this thread. Rest in Peace Mr. Covington.

[Guest BackInDaDay]

My $0.02 on the Fletcher/TKO debate...

 

Switch their teams from a few years ago.

Do you think the Rams' D would have been as soft with Spikes?

Do you think Fletcher would still be a Bengal?

 

My answers are no and yes.

[Adam]

We have had a few excellent ones over the years, but TKO has a combination of size, speed, skills, athleticism, playmaking ability, production and star quality that IMO is unmatched, and I have been watching the Bills since the mid 60s.

 

He kills people, he's as good on the run or the pass, he's consistent, he has remarkable hands for INTs and picking up fumbles, he can be a terror on blitzes, he plays all downs and has the speed to be all over the field, he's good fundamentally, he's smart, he never lets up, he rarely if ever has a bad game, he rarely misses tackles or opportunities, he never misses a game, he's respected and known around the league as a stud, he scores touchdowns, he's made it to the Pro Bowl and he makes spectacular highlight reel hits and plays. And he comes across as a great guy. We really have never had that total package of consistent stellar, spectacular play.

440133[/snapback]

 

I hope you dont renegotiate his contract, or we'll lose Clements