Blaming TD for Bills not making playoffs

[jad1]

I do not know if I can proove that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements over Whisenhunt, but here is an article to back it up. Not the most objective source since Cowher is the coach in Pittsburgh and this is a Pittsburgh paper.

 

As Far as TD being en egomaniac I think he got it right when hired Mularkey to be Head Coach, however I do think his ego has had some negative impact when he hired GW. I think TD wants to get the credit for the success of this team and that is why he has hired 2 coordinators with no Head Coaching experience in the NFL, where as if he had hired someone like Jim Faasel to be the Head Coach who had Head Coaching experience and the Bills had ended up having success TD would not have gotten as much credit. This all goes back to his time in Pittsburgh when he lost the power struggle to Cowher I think TD is scared of a powerful coach because he might lose another power struggle like he did in Pittsburgh. Anyway I hope TD and Mularkey do not go down the same path as TD and Cowher.

391497[/snapback]

 

Again you offer no proof that Donahoe is an egomanic or that he is afraid of a strong coach. And if you look objectively at how Donahoe has run the team, you'll see that your speculation is wrong.

[Typical TBD Guy]

Huh??? I'm trying to understand your point, or even what side you are on, but I can't make it out. Please clarify yourself.

391505[/snapback]

 

The "side" I'm on is the one that:

 

1. Thinks TD is an average GM and nothing more.

2. Thinks TD can be rightfully blamed for assembling a team that can't make the playoffs in a 4-year timespan.

3. Thinks TD's current record doesn't justify a contract extension.

4. Thinks TD should not return as Bills GM if he can't get his 2005 squad to make the playoffs, i.e. he doesn't get yet another 1 year pass just because JP is a rookie.

 

The point I was trying to make is that Alaska Darin suggests that he's clearly in favor of well-documented evidence over speculation, yet is prone to use speculation himself to support his own arguments. I used a previous quote in this thread as an example of this.

[Lori]

BTW, Pioli drafted Brady and BB mentored Brady, while TD didn't draft Brady and traded for Drew...so what does that say about the evaluation skills of each guy?

 

391485[/snapback]

Considering that Donahoe was working for ESPN during the 2000 draft, exactly who would he have drafted Brady FOR? Sportscenter?

 

To a previous post: if the word out of OneBillsDrive can be trusted, the coaches were the ones who nixed the Henry-for-Shelton deal. Further... if TD truly did have total control over player arrivals/departures, Bobby Shaw would still be here. Nothing will ever convince me that MM didn't push Shaw out the door, just like he did in Pittsburgh. (And although a few here whined about it at the time, freeing up more playing time for Lee Evans looks like a really good decision now, doesn't it?)

[Typical TBD Guy]

Considering that Donahoe was working for ESPN during the 2000 draft, exactly who would he have drafted Brady FOR? Sportscenter?

391524[/snapback]

 

 

Point well taken, Lori, but it does little to detract from my argument.

[Kelly the Dog]

This was not luck drafting Brady. The Pats have an organiztional philosphy of drafting a QB every year, or close to it. Look at this year, they have Brady, Fluite as a backup, Rohan Davey(who looks pretty good by all accounts) and they still draft the backup to Leinhart with the last pick in the draft. If this kid turns out to be the next Brady, would you consider that luck? I woudn't. That is having a plan and sticking to it.

391515[/snapback]

Then why didn't they draft Brady in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th round if they knew he was going to be good, what if someone else out of all the 100s of scouts and GMs saw that he was going to be one of the most successful QBs of all-time? What about Kliff Klingsbury? Michael Bishop? Rohan Davey is so good they signed Flutie to back-up Brady? Matt Cassel who never actually played?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Considering that Donahoe was working for ESPN during the 2000 draft, exactly who would he have drafted Brady FOR? Sportscenter?

391524[/snapback]

It wouldn't have surprised me; ESPN does get pretty starry-eyed for Brady. Remember that awful Sunday night game last year?

[plenzmd1]

Then why didn't they draft Brady in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th round if they knew he was going to be good, what if someone else out of all the 100s of scouts and GMs saw that he was going to be one of the most successful QBs of all-time? What about Kliff Klingsbury? Michael Bishop? Rohan Davey is so good they signed Flutie to back-up Brady? Matt Cassel who never actually played?

391542[/snapback]

 

Kelly, your making my point. They feel that QBs are a hit or miss proposition coming out of college, and ya just never know when your going to find the diamond in the rough.Lets not forget all the first rd busts of QBs. Also, 2nd string QBs that show just enough can bring a lot in a trade, ala RJ and AJ Feeley. Was Brady being as good as he is lucky, absolutely. That NE drafted him, no way is that luck.

 

It like the guy who combs a beach all day with a metal detector for five years with absolutely nothing to show for it, then one day finds a rare gold coin worth millions. We`all would say luck, he would say dedication to a philosphy.

 

What if this backup from USC proves to be the real deal, gonna call that luck as well. It is a phiosphy and they have stuck with since they have been in NE. Bill Walsh is the first who esposed this philosphy

[todd]

Interesting. The guy cites no source in the article. Easy enough to do, I guess.

 

I see no evidence of TD being an egomaniac. The guy was signed last year to a contract extention, and he doesn't mention a thing. He doesn't want any info about himself in the media guides. That's hardly the work of an egomaniac.

 

And you are actually trying to make me think that hiring a subservient coach is higher up on TD's list than hiring the right coach, even if it means costing the Bills the playoffs? Umm. No, I don't think so.

 

I do not know if I can proove that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements over Whisenhunt, but here is an article to back it up. Not the most objective source since Cowher is the coach in Pittsburgh and this is a Pittsburgh paper.

 

As Far as TD being en egomaniac I think he got it right when hired Mularkey to be Head Coach, however I do think his ego has had some negative impact when he hired GW. I think TD wants to get the credit for the success of this team and that is why he has hired 2 coordinators with no Head Coaching experience in the NFL, where as if he had hired someone like Jim Faasel to be the Head Coach who had Head Coaching experience and the Bills had ended up having success TD would not have gotten as much credit. This all goes back to his time in Pittsburgh when he lost the power struggle to Cowher I think TD is scared of a powerful coach because he might lose another power struggle like he did in Pittsburgh. Anyway I hope TD and Mularkey do not go down the same path as TD and Cowher.

391497[/snapback]

[Buckeye Eric]

A GM sees the potential.

A coach teaches and game plans to get the most out of that potential.

 

I still think success on the field comes down to the players playing at their potential.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly, your making my point. They feel that QBs are a hit or miss proposition coming out of college, and ya just never know when your going to find the diamond in the rough.Lets not forget all the first rd busts of QBs. Also, 2nd string QBs that show just enough can bring a lot in a trade, ala RJ and AJ Feeley. Was Brady being as good as he is lucky, absolutely. That NE drafted him, no way is that luck.

 

It like the guy who combs a beach all day with a metal detector for five years with absolutely nothing to show for it, then one day finds a rare gold coin worth millions. We`all would say luck, he would say dedication to a philosphy.

 

What if this backup from USC proves to be the real deal, gonna call that luck as well. It is a phiosphy and they have stuck with since they have been in NE. Bill Walsh is the first who esposed this philosphy

391560[/snapback]

So throwing sh-- at the wall for a few random years and just lucking out that Brady was the one in the million was all part of a brilliant scheme and foresight? What about the years they didnt draft quarterbacks like 1998 and 2001 and 2004? What about the several guys that didnt pan out (only one did)? How is this anything other than luck?

[drnykterstein]

The "side" I'm on is the one that:

 

1. Thinks TD is an average GM and nothing more.

2. Thinks TD can be rightfully blamed for assembling a team that can't make the playoffs in a 4-year timespan.

3. Thinks TD's current record doesn't justify a contract extension.

4. Thinks TD should not return as Bills GM if he can't get his 2005 squad to make the playoffs, i.e. he doesn't get yet another 1 year pass just because JP is a rookie.

 

The point I was trying to make is that Alaska Darin suggests that he's clearly in favor of well-documented evidence over speculation, yet is prone to use speculation himself to support his own arguments. I used a previous quote in this thread as an example of this.

391517[/snapback]

Good, not allow me to counterpoint one thing...

 

Well-documented: TD's failure to assemble a team that can make the playoffs (a marker that well over two-thirds of NFL teams have passed in the same 4-year period).

Well lets look at TD's record in Pittsburgh. He was 77-51 there. He also made the playoffs 6 times in 8 years.

 

So you would have to re-word that to say:

Well-documented: TD's failure to assemble a team that made the playoffs within the last four years (a marker that well over two-thirds of NFL teams have passed in the same 4-year period).

 

Changes in the above statement to notice:

1. I changed "can make the playoffs" to "made the playoffs". The way you worded it implied the team he assembled couldn't make the playoffs. That of course is only an opinion and not a fact. As shown by last years NFC, 9-7 can make the playoffs and would normally be good enough if the AFC was not so tough last year.

2. I specified that he has not made the playoffs within the last 4 years. Obviously he has been the GM of a team that has made the playoffs within his career. Just not within the last 4 years

 

 

Also your posts show that you are completely missing the point of original post which was, possibly TD's teams have had some bad luck over the last 4 years. He was saying that maybe there are other reasons the Bills have lost other than TD. Yes, TD does hire everybody, and is at the top. Let me give you an analogy though. If one crazy American goes to Canada and lights off a nuclear bomb, is the whole American Government to blame? How about the President, is he to blame because everything did not happen perfectly underneath him? . If one Priest rapes a young boy, is the whole Catholic Church (or Pope) needing to be fired also?

 

Can you see now that his record might not tell the whole truth of his tenure here in Buffalo? Looking at the team as objectively as I can, I've decided that I like the team that we have and for the most part am happy with the job TD has done. I don't care that we haven't made the playoffs. I would rather be the Bills, with a great defense and a good shot at either the Super Bowl (if JP clicks) or 4-12 (if JP fails), than the Broncos, with a good shot at a 9-7 season, but almost no shot at the Super Bowl since their team has already played up to their full potential and failed. (But the Broncos made the playoffs last year so their GM is awesome!!)

 

 

Disclaimer: I put a lot of time and thought into this post, please read it thoroughly and respect it before making thoughtless replies to it

[Bill from NYC]

The "TD has a huge ego which made him hire GW" never really made any sense to me. GW is the one with the huge ego. He was the one who came in like he was the new sheriff in town and making all the bold statements and we're doing things my way. And TD just let him do whatever he wanted.

391513[/snapback]

 

And the above is not a good thing, right?

 

Imo, TD is to be held accountable for GW, Gilbride, Vinky, and every other bad coach he has brought in. He seems to have redeemed himself by bringing in what I consider to be a very good staff. Unfortunately, MM was a rookie last season and was beaten up by Cowher at the end, but I am very high on MM.

 

I also think that the MW pick was a bad move which has cost us dearly.

 

Other than the above, one simply must admire his trades and free agent signings. I think that as Simon said. "TD doesn't do windows;" meaning he is more about keeping a consistantly good team than making an all out push for the superbowl in a particular season. Also, there is probably not a better GM in all of football when it comes to working for one of the "poorer owners," which Mr. Wilson seems to have become, as was Rooney as far as I know.

 

In summary, I am glad he was extended. He deserved it, and is a good fit in Buffalo. I will qualify this by saying that he put a ton of his eggs in the basket of JP. If HE is a bust, I will be singing a different tune about TD.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I also think that the MW pick was a bad move which has cost us dearly.

391608[/snapback]

Help me out on this one.

 

We needed O-Line help. Most info out there on MW called him the best tackle prospect of the time. Who would you have drafted? Roy Williams? Great, how's that help our line (not to mention that we've got the D covered and #4 is very high for a safety)? McKinnie? He's not fared any better. Levi Jones? Everyone was busting the Bengals' balls on that one. Freeney? People said HE was picked too high. I would love to have those latter two guys but you draft whomever you think is going to work best for you. Peppers was already gone. Hell, we could be wondering if we should cut Joey Harrington right now!

 

Point is, I'd love to say that Levi Jones would have worked out better than MW with our merry-go-round of O-Line coaches, and I'd love to have seen Freeney in a Bills uni. But I don't think you can blame TD for making the pick he did, at the time he did, with the cards he had, and you know he would have been interested in any reasonable offers to move down if there had been any. All indications were that it was the right pick for us at the time, and given good coaching and continued hard work, I think Big Mike will pan out.

[John from Riverside]

Help me out on this one.

 

We needed O-Line help.  Most info out there on MW called him the best tackle prospect of the time.  Who would you have drafted?  Roy Williams?  Great, how's that help our line (not to mention that we've got the D covered and #4 is very high for a safety)?  McKinnie?  He's not fared any better.  Levi Jones?  Everyone was busting the Bengals' balls on that one.  Freeney?  People said HE was picked too high.  I would love to have those latter two guys but you draft whomever you think is going to work best for you.  Peppers was already gone.  Hell, we could be wondering if we should cut Joey Harrington right now! 

 

Point is, I'd love to say that Levi Jones would have worked out better than MW with our merry-go-round of O-Line coaches, and I'd love to have seen Freeney in a Bills uni.  But I don't think you can blame TD for making the pick he did, at the time he did, with the cards he had, and you know he would have been interested in any reasonable offers to move down if there had been any.  All indications were that it was the right pick for us at the time, and given good coaching and continued hard work, I think Big Mike will pan out.

391656[/snapback]

 

The thing is on Big Mike it would be much more beneficial to this team if he could make the transition to Left Tackle......

 

We have guys on this team that can fill the right tackle position.....we can also get a right tackle fairy inexpensive.....for gods sake....our 6th round pick this year may end up being a right tackle......

 

I will be happying if Mike is the most dominant right tackle in the league...but it would help the team more if he could be a good left tackle......

[RuntheDamnBall]

The thing is on Big Mike it would be much more beneficial to this team if he could make the transition to Left Tackle......

 

We have guys on this team that can fill the right tackle position.....we can also get a right tackle fairy inexpensive.....for gods sake....our 6th round pick this year may end up being a right tackle......

 

I will be happying if Mike is the most dominant right tackle in the league...but it would help the team more if he could be a good left tackle......

391674[/snapback]

I agree. Maybe we should call the "left tackle fairy" [j/k]

 

My point is just that I think it's hard to say TD could have done better with the pick and the knowledge he and the scouts had at the time.

[lawnboy1977]

I know you mention it in your post, but your thread is misleading in that on the one hand you grant that Bellichick plays a major role in players accquisition and then on the other hand you want to compare TD and Pioli and Pioloi does not have nearly as much power as TD. The reason I think you can expect so much of TD is because he has so much power. Did you read this article You seem to want to say that TD is not responsible for the coaching, which I would diagree with on the grounds that TD hired the coach. Also it has been well documented around here about TD being somewhat of an egomaniac in that he does not want to hire a powerful coach because of what happened to him in Pittsburgh with Cowher. Also I think I read somewhere that TD forced Mularkey to hire Tom Clements over Ken Whisenhunt for offensive coordinator. Essentially I think TD has to be held highly accountable as these are his players and coaches.

 

I thought I remember someone claiming that Ralph Wilson could be held accountable because he hired TD.

391291[/snapback]

 

 

"It's been well documented", if by random speculation on TBD, then yea I would say its well documented.

[34-78-83]

I agree.  Maybe we should call the "left tackle fairy" [j/k]

 

My point is just that I think it's hard to say TD could have done better with the pick and the knowledge he and the scouts had at the time.

391681[/snapback]

 

Stop making sense!

[Arkady Renko]

Well I am glad that we have had such a great GM these past four years. Otherwise, we might have missed the playoffs by even more games.

 

Seriously, people think that some here pile on to TD, but these are often the same posters who continually piled on certain players on this team. I fail to see why a President and GM who has full control over personnel, coaching, etc. cannot be held accountable but back-ups are human garbage worthy of derision.

 

I am by no means a TD hater, but I am far from satisfied with his performance. You can talk all you want about how our struggles were due to bad coaches and bad players, but TD was the one who brought all of these people in. Nobody's perfect, but many others in his position have far-surpassed him. You can talk about the salary cap that he inherited, but that excuse wears thin when we get to the end of his fourth year here. Other teams have been in terrible cap hell and have rebounded well. Why haven't the Bills?

 

Again, we missed the playoffs the past four years, have people forgotten this? If you talked to Bills fan in the beginning of 2001, would they have accepted the prospect of only gaining a winning record in year four and at that point still out of the playoffs? I think not. I am optimistic about this year, but I cannot be satisfied about TD until the team is actually successful.

[Reuben Gant]

At least I believe RW and TD are committed to winning.

Some owners and GM's are just looking at the bottom line,

and this is more typical with some baseball teams.

 

I think RW said to TD "build me a winner," and TD probably answered

okay, but it is not going to look pretty right away.

[ATBNG]

So throwing sh-- at the wall for a few random years and just lucking out that Brady was the one in the million was all part of a brilliant scheme and foresight? What about the years they didnt draft quarterbacks like 1998 and 2001 and 2004? What about the several guys that didnt pan out (only one did)? How is this anything other than luck?

391582[/snapback]

 

No team hits on 100% of its picks and signings, but I think the teams that are around 80% versus the teams that are around 50% are there due to superior talent evaluation and not just luck. Nabbing a QB like Brady in the 6th was more lucky than most picks made in all of the NFL, but the Patriots have had five good drafts in a row since Belichick arrived.

 

Also, Pioli is not the GM of the Patriots. He's VP of player personnel. Belichick is the GM; he has final say over all football decisions. Comparing Pioli to Donahoe is not really comparing equals - on draft day in Buffalo, TD has the final say. In New England, Belichick has the final say.