Michael Moore's Minute Men Strike Again

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

To the extent that one defines a "minuteman" as a patriot who fights to defend his homeland, in THEIR minds these insurgents are just that.

 

Except that a good many Iraqis realize that a lot of the "freedom fighters" are actually foreigners imported to prosecute their jihad, and don't give a damn about Iraqis. As often as not, Moore's "Minutemen" are more analogous to...oh, I don't know. Maybe the French in the Revolutionary War: couldn't give two ***** about American independence, save for the effect it had in weakening England.

 

I heard a woman screaming on at the scene today:  "MY GOD, THE AMERICANS ARE BLOWING US UP."  Doesn't matter that it's not true.  It matters that they THINK it's true.  And what will follow is more hatred against America and eventually the prophecy that Iraq harbors future terrorists will be very true.

381179[/snapback]

 

That, however, is true enough.

[Reuben Gant]

Rambo II: First Blood Part III.  That's the one where he rams the helicopter with a tank.    Not the worst movie I've ever seen...but easily the worst movie I've ever seen in the theater.  Except maybe Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy this past spring... 

 

Ghost Wars by Steven (or Stephen) Coll is a good read on the US (and Pakistani, and Saudi) involvement in Afghanistan from about '79 to '01.  Taliban, by Ahmed Rashid, is another excellent book on the rise of the Tailban (Rashid's an excellent read in particular - he's a Pakistani journalist who's spent maybe two decades covering Afghanistan; great sources, great perspective, and very objective, particularly considering how close he is to events).  I'm not going to claim those two books together can explain Afghanistan...but I will say that those books will demonstrate precisely how thoroughly !@#$ed up the politics of that region is.

381185[/snapback]

Rams the Helicoptor with a Tank? Yes, that seems right, I think I took my nephew to see that.

 

Thanks for the tips on the books, much appreciated.

[blzrul]

Except that a good many Iraqis realize that a lot of the "freedom fighters" are actually foreigners imported to prosecute their jihad, and don't give a damn about Iraqis.  As often as not, Moore's "Minutemen" are more analogous to...oh, I don't know.  Maybe the French in the Revolutionary War: couldn't give two ***** about American independence, save for the effect it had in weakening England.

That, however, is true enough.

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Yes but in the end, as usual, the little children suffer whilst we speak of semantics.

[Rich in Ohio]

I Googled  Michael Moore minute men and got this :

In his own words

"...The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?..."

 

This is directly from michaelmoore.com.

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aww, the radical left crowd will not allow something as simple as the facts get in the way of thier support for the insurgent murders. Not so much that they support the murder of children directly...but the do love it when things go badly for GWB and the USA in general.

[Kelly the Dog]

aww, the radical left crowd will not allow something as simple as the facts get in the way of thier support for the insurgent murders. Not so much that they support the murder of children directly...but the do love it when things go badly for GWB and the USA in general.

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What exactly are the facts here in this thread, Rich? That people, including a bunch of innocent kids, died?

[Alaska Darin]

How do you know what winning is? Or how can you say we are loosing?

Neither has been well defined. It is looking that loosing right now would

mean a failed state building project- and winning a successful state building

project- but I can't speak for my Commander in Cheif.

381186[/snapback]

Losing. LOSING.

 

Sorry. Pet peeve.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Regardless of your being in jest, I have to point out that the Afghan Mujahadeen was a lot more complex than the US supporting everyone against the USSR. 

 

And technically, the Taliban didn't even exist until about 1994 or so...Reagan couldn't have supported them without inventing time travel.

381167[/snapback]

Reagan was the best president this nation has ever seen, and I can't believe you're insinuating that he DIDN'T invent time travel.

[/insanity]

[chicot]

Radical Islam was different last year?

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Radical Islam? You do realise that a large part of the insurgency is down to ex-Baathists who certainly are not motivated by radical Islam, Baathism being very much a secular movement?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Radical Islam? You do realise that a large part of the insurgency is down to ex-Baathists who certainly are not motivated by radical Islam, Baathism being very much a secular movement?

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Insurgency...laughable.

 

The people fighting us now are largely Jordanians, Syrians, Saudis and Iranian instigators.

 

The Baathists are but a small minority within this "insurgency".

[chicot]

Insurgency...laughable.

 

The people fighting us now are largely Jordanians, Syrians, Saudis and Iranian instigators.

 

The Baathists are but a small minority within this "insurgency".

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Is that why the vast majority of people being held in Iraq by the US are actually Iraqis?

[Gavin in Va Beach]

It seems pretty laughable to just write off the insurgents as 'foreigners' as if they've come in like they own the place and are holding the entire Iraqi population hostage. And somebody must be housing them and providing them with bases(for lack of a better word) in which to stage their missions. I doubt they are pitching tents outside of town. The foreign insurgents are welcomed with open arms by at least some Iraqis...

[chicot]

It seems pretty laughable to just write off the insurgents as 'foreigners' as if they've come in like they own the place and are holding the entire Iraqi population hostage. And somebody must be housing them and providing them with bases(for lack of a better word) in which to stage their missions. I doubt they are pitching tents outside of town. The foreign insurgents are welcomed with open arms by at least some Iraqis...

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I agree (this is a sure sign the apocalypse is upon us). There is almost certainly some cooperation between elements of the homegrown insurgency and the foreign jihadis.

[Rich in Ohio]

It's not silly, it's "important"! Because there's "idiots" who don't like MM, and they quoted something stupid he said! And I won't stand for it! He doesn't actually like the forces fighting and killing our soldiers - he doesn't want them to win, even though he says they will - he just compared them to the heroes who risked their lives to found our nation because, because ... GAAAAHHH! 

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Everything that the fat pig mickael moore says falls into one of these three catagories;

 

1) a flat out lie

2) An ignorant statement that has no basis in fact (see item 1) above)

3) Pure hate rhetoric which comes from his desire to be right at the expense of the rest of the normal people in the USA

 

 

 

What moore is there to say?

[Rich in Ohio]

Insurgency...laughable.

 

The people fighting us now are largely Jordanians, Syrians, Saudis and Iranian instigators.

 

The Baathists are but a small minority within this "insurgency".

381396[/snapback]

 

I agree with your assement JSP.

 

I will also add that their dayd are numbered, and thier numbers are dwindling. On a good week we eliminate 50 to 60 of these sub-humans, and on a great week we get a few hundred of them.

[Alaska Darin]

Is that why the vast majority of people being held in Iraq by the US are actually Iraqis?

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Nah. It probably has something to do with numbers. You know, since there are 24 MILLION Iraqis and not more than a few thousand "insurgents" is stands to reason that there may actually be more Iraqis in jail. It's a ratio thing. Perhaps they don't teach math on the island?

 

[chicot]

Nah.  It probably has something to do with numbers.  You know, since there are 24 MILLION Iraqis and not more than a few thousand "insurgents" is stands to reason that there may actually be more Iraqis in jail.  It's a ratio thing.  Perhaps they don't teach math on the island?

 

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What are you going on about ?! I was not talking about Iraqis in "jail", I was talking about those Iraqis being held by the US for being part of the insurgency. As US spokesmen confirm time and again, the vast majority of those are Iraqi.

[pope zimli]

I guess the "insurgents" have more on their agenda than getting the U.S. to leave Iraq:

 

"At least 26 Iraqis, almost all of them children, have been killed by a suicide car bombing in south-eastern Baghdad. A US soldier is also said to have died in the blast. Another three US soldiers are reported to have been injured.

 

A car drove up to a US army vehicle and blew up as troops gave sweets to the children, a witness said.

 

Hundreds of Iraqis have died in attacks by militants opposed to the US presence and a Shia-led government that took charge in Baghdad earlier this year.

 

"Many Iraqi civilians, mostly children, were around the Humvee at the time of the blast," US military spokesman Sgt David Abrams told the Reuters news agency.

 

"Suddenly a suicide car bomber drove round from a side street and blew himself up," he said."

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[Pine Barrens Mafia]

What are you going on about ?! I was not talking about Iraqis in "jail", I was talking about those Iraqis being held by the US for being part of the insurgency. As US spokesmen confirm time and again, the vast majority of those are Iraqi.

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So you're saying your own countrymen are blowing THEMSELVES up to make a point about US leaving? Sorry, I don't buy it.

[chicot]

Nah.  It probably has something to do with numbers.  You know, since there are 24 MILLION Iraqis and not more than a few thousand "insurgents" is stands to reason that there may actually be more Iraqis in jail.  It's a ratio thing.  Perhaps they don't teach math on the island?

 

381460[/snapback]

 

This is what I meant:

 

Few foreign fighters in Iraq

 

"Suspected foreign fighters account for less than 2% of the 5,700 captives being held as security threats in Iraq, a strong indication that Iraqis are largely responsible for the stubborn insurgency."

 

Yes, I know the article is a year old but I somewhat doubt that the number of foreigners being held has increased so that it is now 50% of the total number or anything like it.

[pope zimli]

oh...innocent people get killed in war. Wow. I remember pictures of My Lai and the little girl who was so horribly burned by napalm. Wake up, Pollyanna. We should have thought of that before we went in if it bothered us.

[chicot]

So you're saying your own countrymen are blowing THEMSELVES up to make a point about US leaving? Sorry, I don't buy it.

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Nope. I think that most of the ones actually blowing themselves are up are probably foreigners with some help and assistance from more ruthless and fanatical elements of the Iraqi insurgency.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

This is what I meant:

 

Few foreign fighters in Iraq

 

"Suspected foreign fighters account for less than 2% of the 5,700 captives being held as security threats in Iraq, a strong indication that Iraqis are largely responsible for the stubborn insurgency."

 

Yes, I know the article is a year old but I somewhat doubt that the number of foreigners being held has increased so that it is now 50% of the total number or anything like it.

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These people aren't just "held". Lots of them are killed. Those numbers could just as easily mean that Iraqis are far more likely to let themselves be captured. More Syrians were killed during the assault on Baghdad than Iraqis, after all...

[chicot]

These people aren't just "held".  Lots of them are killed.  Those numbers could just as easily mean that Iraqis are far more likely to let themselves be captured.  More Syrians were killed during the assault on Baghdad than Iraqis, after all...

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Well, what do you believe? That there are more foreign insurgents than Iraqi ones?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Nope. I think that most of the ones actually blowing themselves are up are probably foreigners with some help and assistance from more ruthless and fanatical elements of the Iraqi insurgency.

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So then you would agree with me that for the most part the Iraqi-led portion of the so-called "insurgency" has died down considerably? Because let me tell you, most of the reports WE hear here in the States are those about car-bombings any more. Much less regarding attacks against soldiers or infrastructure, much more against people trying to work with the new government.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Well, what do you believe? That there are more foreign insurgents than Iraqi ones?

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What the !@#$ does belief have to do with anything? Who gives a sh-- what I believe? What I believe is completely irrelevant to the reality on the ground...and from what evidence I've seen, anecdotal and otherwise, that indicates there's multiple parties in Iraq pursuing multiple goals, including ex-Baathists and foreign fighters that may or may not cooperate with each other depending on the situation, regardless of what anyone not in Iraq believes.

 

That's a FAR cry from making a woefully ignorant blanket assumption that, because more Iraqis are in hospital than foreigners, more Iraqis than foreigners are fighting.

[chicot]

What the !@#$ does belief have to do with anything?  Who gives a sh-- what I believe?  What I believe is completely irrelevant to the reality on the ground...and from what evidence I've seen, anecdotal and otherwise, that indicates there's multiple parties in Iraq pursuing multiple goals, including ex-Baathists and foreign fighters that may or may not cooperate with each other depending on the situation, regardless of what anyone not in Iraq believes. 

 

That's a FAR cry from making a woefully ignorant blanket assumption that, because more Iraqis are in hospital than foreigners, more Iraqis than foreigners are fighting.

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Once upon a time I used to enjoy having a civilised debate with you. Sadly, it seems that is no longer possible. I asked what you believed because I wondered what your opinion was, not because it made any difference to the reality on the ground.

 

How do you know what I made my "assumption" on? Are you are a mindreader as well as being supremely arrogant? I provided that link simply as a counterexample not because my entire opinion was based upon it's contents. You are indeed well-named.

[Adam]

Why would anyone pay attention to a psycho like Moore- the guy accused a former US President of aiding Al Quaeda. I'm definitely not from the republican party, nor would I ever consider joining it, but anyone who thinks that is not an american, IMHO

[Kelly the Dog]

Why would anyone pay attention to a psycho like Moore- the guy accused a former US President of aiding Al Quaeda. I'm definitely not from the republican party, nor would I ever consider joining it, but anyone who thinks that is not an american, IMHO

381549[/snapback]

Actually it seems like the only one listening to Michael Moore are Republicans.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

How do you know what I made my "assumption" on? Are you are a mindreader as well as being supremely arrogant?

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So let me get this straight: you state your opinion on something where opinion is fundamentally irrelevent, provide one item of completely ambiguous supporting data...then get pissy when you're called out on supporting your irrelevant opinion with one ambiguous data point? And I'm the one that's arrogant? That is a supremely retarded reasoning process you have there...

[Kelly the Dog]

So let me get this straight: you state your opinion on something where opinion is fundamentally irrelevent, provide one item of completely ambiguous supporting data...then get pissy when you're called out on supporting your irrelevant opinion with one ambiguous data point?  And I'm the one that's arrogant?    That is a supremely retarded reasoning process you have there...

381557[/snapback]

It's okay to have an opinion, you feces flingin' freak. Really. It is. Try it some time.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Why would anyone pay attention to a psycho like Moore- the guy accused a former US President of aiding Al Quaeda. I'm definitely not from the republican party, nor would I ever consider joining it, but anyone who thinks that is not an american, IMHO

381549[/snapback]

 

Lots of people accuse the US of aiding al Qaeda. It's because they can't accept that the world's actually a complex place.

 

And Moore happens to be a very visible example of that...just look at his work.

[ExiledInIllinois]

It's okay to have an opinion, you feces flingin' freak. Really. It is. Try it some time. 

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Boy... I sure would like to "pile on" now.

 

Nah.

[chicot]

So let me get this straight: you state your opinion on something where opinion is fundamentally irrelevent, provide one item of completely ambiguous supporting data...then get pissy when you're called out on supporting your irrelevant opinion with one ambiguous data point?  And I'm the one that's arrogant?    That is a supremely retarded reasoning process you have there...

381557[/snapback]

 

When exactly would opinion be relevant? This is a politics board - what exactly do you expect people to be doing apart from stating their opinion? Or maybe I should just wait for someone else to offer an opinion and then rip into it. Nah, there's enough people playing that game already.

[chicot]

So let me get this straight: you state your opinion on something where opinion is fundamentally irrelevent, provide one item of completely ambiguous supporting data...then get pissy when you're called out on supporting your irrelevant opinion with one ambiguous data point?  And I'm the one that's arrogant?    That is a supremely retarded reasoning process you have there...

381557[/snapback]

 

And BTW am I actually allowed to reply with my opinion to JSP since he actually asked what it was? Perhaps I should just give a highly condescending reply and tell him that my opinion is irrelevant.

[Alaska Darin]

This is what I meant:

 

Few foreign fighters in Iraq

 

"Suspected foreign fighters account for less than 2% of the 5,700 captives being held as security threats in Iraq, a strong indication that Iraqis are largely responsible for the stubborn insurgency."

 

Yes, I know the article is a year old but I somewhat doubt that the number of foreigners being held has increased so that it is now 50% of the total number or anything like it.

381479[/snapback]

Sorry, I'm going to have a hard time giving credence to "suspected foriegn fighters", some random percentage, and an article by USA Today.

[Reuben Gant]

decent piece from Globalsecurity.org on iraq

dealing with the composition of the insurgency:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops..._insurgency.htm

 

although it is safe to say that it is always in a state of flux.

[chicot]

So then you would agree with me that for the most part the Iraqi-led portion of the so-called "insurgency" has died down considerably? Because let me tell you, most of the reports WE hear here in the States are those about car-bombings any more. Much less regarding attacks against soldiers or infrastructure, much more against people trying to work with the new government.

381494[/snapback]

 

Suicide bombings certainly seem to have increased and, assuming they are indeed being carried out by foreigners, that would seem to suggest that their influence is increasing. I'm not sure that attacks against the US military are down however. I read a report a few weeks ago that stated that attacks against the US military are at exactly the same level as they were a year ago (about 60-70 a day if I remember rightly). Unless these attacks actually cause loss of life they don't make the news (that's the way it is here and I'd guess it would be the same on your side of the Atlantic). Suicide bombings that kill dozens of people are always going to receive more media coverage than attacks on military targets that kill no one.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Suicide bombings certainly seem to have increased and, assuming they are indeed being carried out by foreigners, that would seem to suggest that their influence is increasing. I'm not sure that attacks against the US military are down however. I read a report a few weeks ago that stated that attacks against the US military are at exactly the same level as they were a year ago (about 60-70 a day if I remember rightly). Unless these attacks actually cause loss of life they don't make the news (that's the way it is here and I'd guess it would be the same on your side of the Atlantic). Suicide bombings that kill dozens of people are always going to receive more media coverage than attacks on military targets that kill no one.

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An excellent point. But I am still essentially correct. Where the "insurgents" once successfully attacked and killed coalition soldiers, they have been blunted. Their only outlet has been to assault innocent civilians.

 

The fact that Iraqis themselves haven't rooted out ther killers among them speaks VOLUMES about the general population.

[Ghost of BiB]

Meanwhile, back at the blind midgets vs. the diabetic hippo fights...

[blzrul]

An excellent point. But I am still essentially correct. Where the insurgents once successfully attacked and killed coalition soldiers, they have been blunted. Their only outlet has been to assault innocent civilians.

 

The fact that Iraqis themselves haven't rooted out ther killers among them speaks VOLUMES about the general population.

381829[/snapback]

Well we can't stop drug dealers and child molesters, what does that say about us?

 

It's easier said than done. I'd imagine that plenty of Iraqis would like the violence would stop. But the Americans OBVIOUSLY cannot protect them, so they're gonna clam up. The don't know democracy - they know intimidation, and their reactions are ingrained. When we can do a better job of protecting civilians, it'll improve. And don't tell me it's up to the Iraqi police and military to protect themselves. We assumed that responsibility when we invaded. We bought it, it's ugly, and it's all ours.