boyst Posted September 5 Posted September 5 Just now, Logic said: Fact, not opinion: Josh Allen has been a better playoff quarterback than Lamar Jackson throughout their careers. Every reasonable analytical measurement and statistic proves this. If the question is "which quarterback, on average, is better during the regular season?", you could very reasonably make the case that its Lamar Jackson. If the question is "which quarterback, on average, is better during the playoffs?", there is no reasonable argument for Lamar. None. Which quarterback would you put to head your franchise? The one who runs less and less wear and tear on the body? The one who didn't try to hold out and miss games as a business decision because his mom said so? Quote
Logic Posted September 5 Posted September 5 5 minutes ago, boyst said: Which quarterback would you put to head your franchise? The one who runs less and less wear and tear on the body? The one who didn't try to hold out and miss games as a business decision because his mom said so? I'd choose Josh, but neither of those are the reasons why. I'd choose Josh over Lamar largely because when the lights are brightest (the playoffs), he's the better quarterback. Also because I've never seen an athlete make an entire team want to run through a wall for him the way Josh does. He leads by example by putting his own body on the line and going all out every play, every game, in a way I've never seen any other quarterback do. As a leader of men and as a person, he's as elite as it gets. I love Lamar Jackson. I think he's an all-world quarterback and football player. It's a pleasure to watch him play. He's one of the best I've ever seen, and a surefire Hall of Famer. But I'm taking Josh Allen 10 times out of 10. And if we're talking strictly playoff football...again, there's just no reasonable argument that Josh hasn't been better than Lamar at it for the duration of the careers up until now. Could that change? Sure. So far, it's Josh. Definitively. 2 1 1 Quote
YattaOkasan Posted September 5 Posted September 5 2 hours ago, FranchiseSavior said: I think we will be fine. Travis Jones will be a load inside. He started great last season had a really bad ankle sprain that lingered all season. He's in a contract year and he's fully healthy so he should be an absolute load. The run defense is a bit of an unknown as they're a questions of how we replace the recently retired Michael Pierce and how well Trenton Simpson respond this season. We signed John Jenkins but we don't know what he'll be and Simpson was bad with his run fits last season causing him to be benched late in the season. Forgot about Travis Jones. Really wanted him a couple years ago. Feeling ok with Deonte Walker now but yeah Jones is really solid against the run. Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 5 Posted September 5 2 hours ago, NewEra said: Trending in that direction but who knows for sure. It’s a fluid situation. Here’s where the “choking” comes into play. This seems to be your biggest hang up with how the 2 are perceived. In 6 season ending losses Josh has a total of 2 ints and 1 FL. 1 int and the 1 FL coming in his first playoff game when he was still an unknown as a QB. In his last 5 season ending losses (since he’s become an elite QB), Josh has 1 int- 0 FL. He hasn’t choked. He hasn’t given any games away. Lamar has done just that in every season ending loss. He continues to give the opponents the ball on the biggest stages. thoughts? I don't agree thats what Lamar has done. Has Lamar had turnover issue sure I also think he's played well enough to win those games. Take last seasons game. The int was the wr running the wrong route ans the fumble was Lamar trying to make something out of nothing. People naturally look at the TOs but Lamar was brilliant in that game. The other caveat to this is the team as a whole doesn't play well in the playoffs. You look at the Lamar TOs and says he chokes while overlooking all the other mistakes in the game. You had Derrick Hebry drop a pass wide open up the sideline without a Bill within 10 yards of him. There's a good chance he houses that with his speed. MAndrews drops a 1st down that would have kept the drive alive and we had to settle for a FG. Ravens are driving and Mandrews fumbles in Bills territory. Lamar fights through all of that scores the potential game tying TD only to have Mandrews drop the 2 pt conversion that would have tied the game. There are at least 3 more mistakes that others have made and Lamar gets the brunt of it. Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 5 Posted September 5 40 minutes ago, Logic said: I'd choose Josh, but neither of those are the reasons why. I'd choose Josh over Lamar largely because when the lights are brightest (the playoffs), he's the better quarterback. Also because I've never seen an athlete make an entire team want to run through a wall for him the way Josh does. He leads by example by putting his own body on the line and going all out every play, every game, in a way I've never seen any other quarterback do. As a leader of men and as a person, he's as elite as it gets. I love Lamar Jackson. I think he's an all-world quarterback and football player. It's a pleasure to watch him play. He's one of the best I've ever seen, and a surefire Hall of Famer. But I'm taking Josh Allen 10 times out of 10. And if we're talking strictly playoff football...again, there's just no reasonable argument that Josh hasn't been better than Lamar at it for the duration of the careers up until now. Could that change? Sure. So far, it's Josh. Definitively. Its 6 on one hand, half dozen on the other. Both are elite QBs. Just as Josh has guys wanting to run through a wall for him so does Lamar. Lamar's teams all gush over him. All you hear them talk about is 8. Just as I assume those guys all talk about Josh. There are 3 guys on this team today because they want to play with Lamar (their words not mines) DHop, Henry, and Jaire Alexander. Both those guys have traits that make them great, both came into the league with major weaknesses to their games and have work their tails off to make those weaknesses a strength. We can sit here and go back a forth about who's better but the fact is that they both are great. Both their teams have come up short in the playoffs and neither one of them has won or even played in the SB. All those stats aren't going to mean anything if they dont win a SB. If Lamar doesn't win a SB it is always going be he couldn't get over the hump. If Josh doesnt win a SB nobody is going to say Josh was a great playoff QB. They are going to say he didn’t get it done. 2 2 Quote
Logic Posted September 5 Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: Its 6 on one hand, half dozen on the other. Both are elite QBs. Just as Josh has guys wanting to run through a wall for him so does Lamar. Lamar's teams all gush over him. All you hear them talk about is 8. Just as I assume those guys all talk about Josh. There are 3 guys on this team today because they want to play with Lamar (their words not mines) DHop, Henry, and Jaire Alexander. Both those guys have traits that make them great, both came into the league with major weaknesses to their games and have work their tails off to make those weaknesses a strength. We can sit here and go back a forth about who's better but the fact is that they both are great. Both their teams have come up short in the playoffs and neither one of them has won or even played in the SB. All those stats aren't going to mean anything if they dont win a SB. If Lamar doesn't win a SB it is always going be he couldn't get over the hump. If Josh doesnt win a SB nobody is going to say Josh was a great playoff QB. They are going to say he didn’t get it done. Thanks. I agree with everything you say here! And Josh is still the better playoff quarterback 1 Quote
NewEra Posted September 5 Author Posted September 5 3 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: I don't agree thats what Lamar has done. Has Lamar had turnover issue sure I also think he's played well enough to win those games. Take last seasons game. The int was the wr running the wrong route ans the fumble was Lamar trying to make something out of nothing. People naturally look at the TOs but Lamar was brilliant in that game. The other caveat to this is the team as a whole doesn't play well in the playoffs. You look at the Lamar TOs and says he chokes while overlooking all the other mistakes in the game. You had Derrick Hebry drop a pass wide open up the sideline without a Bill within 10 yards of him. There's a good chance he houses that with his speed. MAndrews drops a 1st down that would have kept the drive alive and we had to settle for a FG. Ravens are driving and Mandrews fumbles in Bills territory. Lamar fights through all of that scores the potential game tying TD only to have Mandrews drop the 2 pt conversion that would have tied the game. There are at least 3 more mistakes that others have made and Lamar gets the brunt of it. Of course you don’t agree. Thats why you’re here wasting your life away arguing with Bills fans. And you’re still bringing up the Rapp interception? Blaming the int on Bateman is just weak. He didn’t look off the safety like he should have and that led to the interceptions just as much as Bateman “running the wrong route”. It was a poor decision on his part to throw it. If Bateman ran the wrong route, Rapp would’ve decapitated him….which is more proof that he shouldn’t have thrown the pass- or looked Rapp off. Or even notice Rapp at all. That was a throw he shouldn’t have made- regardless of what Bateman did. The ammunition that you think you have is pure garbage. Just like Lamar’s performances in season ending losses. Yes- other have players made mistakes that contributed to their losses- but those mistakes don’t absolve Lamar from blame. His mistakes are equally to blame and WITHOUT LAMARS MISTAKES, the ravens likely win that game and other playoff losses. But he choked…. maybe he won’t double clutch on the biggest pass of the game in the playoffs this season. As a homer- you don’t see the double clutch as a mistake that contributed to the drop. I get it. But that doesn’t make you correct. He is partially responsible for the drop. Andrews should be on the hook for the majority of the blame. We’ll never know, but I bet if he didn’t double clutch and throw behind him, that he would’ve made the catch. And then Josh would’ve driven down the field for the win. You post the same things over and over and over and over- then we tell you why you’re wrong and you post it again. Care to elaborate on Josh’s playoff stats compared to Lamar’s? No- you don’t. It’s been brought up by several people and you refuse to acknowledge Josh’s superiority of play in the playoffs as if it’s never happened. It happened. And you’re sad. 11 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: Both their teams have come up short in the playoffs and neither one of them has won or even played in the SB. All those stats aren't going to mean anything if they dont win a SB. If Lamar doesn't win a SB it is always going be he couldn't get over the hump. If Josh doesnt win a SB nobody is going to say Josh was a great playoff QB. They are going to say he didn’t get it done. All those stats absolutely mean something- they prove that Josh has been a much better playoff performer than Lamar and that Lamar has consistently underperformed/choked in season ending losses. Hence why they don’t have the same playoff narrative. It’s clear as day to everyone that isn’t a ravens/lamar fan. Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted September 5 Posted September 5 2 hours ago, FranchiseSavior said: I don't agree thats what Lamar has done. Has Lamar had turnover issue sure I also think he's played well enough to win those games. Take last seasons game. The int was the wr running the wrong route ans the fumble was Lamar trying to make something out of nothing. People naturally look at the TOs but Lamar was brilliant in that game. The other caveat to this is the team as a whole doesn't play well in the playoffs. You look at the Lamar TOs and says he chokes while overlooking all the other mistakes in the game. You had Derrick Hebry drop a pass wide open up the sideline without a Bill within 10 yards of him. There's a good chance he houses that with his speed. MAndrews drops a 1st down that would have kept the drive alive and we had to settle for a FG. Ravens are driving and Mandrews fumbles in Bills territory. Lamar fights through all of that scores the potential game tying TD only to have Mandrews drop the 2 pt conversion that would have tied the game. There are at least 3 more mistakes that others have made and Lamar gets the brunt of it. QB gets more credit and more blame than they should in wins and losses. Thats the name of the game. The narrative right now is that Lamar chokes because Lamars stats are worse in these playoff losses than they are in the regular season. His playoff stats in general, even factoring in the wins, are worse than the regular season. Allen has the best stats in NFL history in the post season across many categories. There is a distinct difference of when you play your best and worst football of the season, and too many times Lamar has made mistakes. The bolded above - you just made an excuse for a self inflicted turnover by Lamar, that is a devastating mistake, and won that easily contributed significantly to the Ravens loss with the fumble you said was "Lamar trying to make something out of nothing". That is a mistake no matter how you cut it, and the kinds of mistakes that don't happen with guys like Brady, Mahomes, etc who have dominated the AFC the past 2 eras as often in big moments. Case in point - Josh Allen did this too much, hence his tendency for turnovers, but he doesn't do it in the playoffs. In fact his TD-TO ration in the postseason is the best in NFL history if I am not mistaken. Lamar - not so much. Allen had to stop pressing when plays arent there and realize its better to not force the issue and just take a sack or throw away and live to fight another down. Lamar pressing trying to make something happen out of nothing cost his team the ball in a close game. That is a big mistake, and one Lamar has made too many times in playoff losses. That is why there is the narrative on Lamar, he factually plays worse in the postseason than his MVP regular seasons. 1 1 Quote
BigDingus Posted September 5 Posted September 5 5 hours ago, FranchiseSavior said: There is an argument to be made that Burrow is the best in the business. I dint agree with it but he is definitely one of the best out there. All time QBs over comes whoever is in front of them. Is Josh still a turnover machine or has he overcome that label? If that argument can be made, it's not because he made a Super Bowl 4 seasons ago. It's because he's putting up crazy numbers in general. Here's Burrow's stats from that AFCCG: 22/38 comp / 250 pass yards / 2 TDs / 1 INT / 86.5 passer rating (25 rush yards). The game prior to that, Josh Allen had: 27/37 comp / 329 pass yards / 4 TDs / 0 INTs / 136.0 passer rating (68 rush yards). Tell me, which QB played better? If Allen's defense held KC to 3 points in a half + OT in ONE of his 4 games, he'd have appeared in a Super Bowl. Meanwhile, Lamar's defense actually shut out the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the 2023 AFCCG... *************** Next point - Josh being a "turnover machine" has always been a silly narrative. "He leads the league in turnovers since he entered the league!" makes it sound way worse than it was, primarily because only him, Mahomes, Carr, Goff & Russell Wilson who played nearly every game over that span. And over that time, Allen also has the most TDs of everyone. Josh entered the league in 2018 & only missed a handful of games his rookie year. Who else was starting the next 7 years? You have QBs that were in the league at that time retired or lost the starting job at some point in the following years (Brady, Big Ben, Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Cam). You have QBs that were missed time, were benched or injured at various points (Dak, Cousins, Winston, Mayfield, Darnold, Stafford, Jones, Tannehill, Flacco, Wentz) You have QBs that were drafted years later and/or also injured/benched at various points (Herbert, Burrow, Tua, Purdy, Hurts, Richardson, Young, Kyler Murray, Mack Jones) League Leader in turnovers by Year: 2018: Josh Rosen 2019: Jameis Winston 2020: Carson Wentz 2021: Trevor Lawrence 2022: Josh Allen 2023: Sam Howell 2024: Kirk Cousins + Baker Mayfield + Will Levis So only one of those years was Josh actually the league leader in turnovers. And in that stretch, he also put up 262 TDs & had a 2.38 to 1 TD to turnover ratio. He averaged 9 more TDs & 5 more turnovers a season than Lamar. Is that horrible? I would say no, especially when TDs equal ACTUAL points, while turnovers equal POTENTIAL points for the opponent. You could commit 4 turnovers in a game & have the opponent score 3 points off that. Meanwhile, if you score 4 TDs in a game, that's 24 points on the board. Which is more important? ****************** Lastly, just to really bring up how ridiculous the whole "Allen doesn't deserve MVP" argument is, let's compare the last 2 MVPs: 2023 Lamar Jackson - 67% completions / 3,678 pass yards / 29 Total TDs / 13 Turnovers / 821 rush yards / 102.7 passer rating 2024 Josh Allen - 64% completions / 3,731 pass yards / 41 Total TDs / 8 Turnovers / 531 rush yards / 101.4 passer rating So Lamar had better completion %, rush yards & passer rating, while Josh had more pass yards, TDs & less turnovers. How exactly would 2023 Lamar deserve MVP but 2024 Allen does not? These are both great players, but to act like one is just so beneath the other or "overrated" is ridiculous. And both are better than Burrow. 1 1 Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 5 Posted September 5 1 hour ago, NewEra said: Of course you don’t agree. Thats why you’re here wasting your life away arguing with Bills fans. And you’re still bringing up the Rapp interception? Blaming the int on Bateman is just weak. He didn’t look off the safety like he should have and that led to the interceptions just as much as Bateman “running the wrong route”. It was a poor decision on his part to throw it. If Bateman ran the wrong route, Rapp would’ve decapitated him….which is more proof that he shouldn’t have thrown the pass- or looked Rapp off. Or even notice Rapp at all. That was a throw he shouldn’t have made- regardless of what Bateman did. The ammunition that you think you have is pure garbage. Just like Lamar’s performances in season ending losses. Yes- other have players made mistakes that contributed to their losses- but those mistakes don’t absolve Lamar from blame. His mistakes are equally to blame and WITHOUT LAMARS MISTAKES, the ravens likely win that game and other playoff losses. But he choked…. maybe he won’t double clutch on the biggest pass of the game in the playoffs this season. As a homer- you don’t see the double clutch as a mistake that contributed to the drop. I get it. But that doesn’t make you correct. He is partially responsible for the drop. Andrews should be on the hook for the majority of the blame. We’ll never know, but I bet if he didn’t double clutch and throw behind him, that he would’ve made the catch. And then Josh would’ve driven down the field for the win. You post the same things over and over and over and over- then we tell you why you’re wrong and you post it again. Care to elaborate on Josh’s playoff stats compared to Lamar’s? No- you don’t. It’s been brought up by several people and you refuse to acknowledge Josh’s superiority of play in the playoffs as if it’s never happened. It happened. And you’re sad. All those stats absolutely mean something- they prove that Josh has been a much better playoff performer than Lamar and that Lamar has consistently underperformed/choked in season ending losses. Hence why they don’t have the same playoff narrative. It’s clear as day to everyone that isn’t a ravens/lamar fan. With all of Josh's astronomical stats and if he's this elite playoff QB what has that gotten him? If we take your narrative what does that say about Josh? He has played his best ball in the playoffs and has nothing to show for it. Meanwhile Lamar has choked (your words not mine) and has accomplished as much as the guy that has been at his best. Quote
RochesterLifer Posted September 5 Posted September 5 4 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: With all of Josh's astronomical stats and if he's this elite playoff QB what has that gotten him? If we take your narrative what does that say about Josh? He has played his best ball in the playoffs and has nothing to show for it. Meanwhile Lamar has choked (your words not mine) and has accomplished as much as the guy that has been at his best. Actually, read the scoreboard. Lamar hasn’t accomplished as much as Josh. In the playoffs, Lamar is 0-2 against Josh. Each new year has new possibilities. But, at this point, you got nothin’. 1 Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 5 Posted September 5 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: QB gets more credit and more blame than they should in wins and losses. Thats the name of the game. The narrative right now is that Lamar chokes because Lamars stats are worse in these playoff losses than they are in the regular season. His playoff stats in general, even factoring in the wins, are worse than the regular season. Allen has the best stats in NFL history in the post season across many categories. There is a distinct difference of when you play your best and worst football of the season, and too many times Lamar has made mistakes. The bolded above - you just made an excuse for a self inflicted turnover by Lamar, that is a devastating mistake, and won that easily contributed significantly to the Ravens loss with the fumble you said was "Lamar trying to make something out of nothing". That is a mistake no matter how you cut it, and the kinds of mistakes that don't happen with guys like Brady, Mahomes, etc who have dominated the AFC the past 2 eras as often in big moments. Case in point - Josh Allen did this too much, hence his tendency for turnovers, but he doesn't do it in the playoffs. In fact his TD-TO ration in the postseason is the best in NFL history if I am not mistaken. Lamar - not so much. Allen had to stop pressing when plays arent there and realize its better to not force the issue and just take a sack or throw away and live to fight another down. Lamar pressing trying to make something happen out of nothing cost his team the ball in a close game. That is a big mistake, and one Lamar has made too many times in playoff losses. That is why there is the narrative on Lamar, he factually plays worse in the postseason than his MVP regular seasons. Ill ask you the same thing I ask NewEra. If Lamar has played his worse in the playoffs and Josh jas played his absolute best and they have both accomplished the same things than what does that say about Josh? Does that intimate that if Lamar plays a little bit better he would win a SB while Josh has already hit his ceiling? 30 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said: Actually, read the scoreboard. Lamar hasn’t accomplished as much as Josh. In the playoffs, Lamar is 0-2 against Josh. Each new year has new possibilities. But, at this point, you got nothin’. But neither has the ultimate goal. Ok Josh has 1 more AFCCG loss than Lamar Quote
Mikie2times Posted September 5 Posted September 5 (edited) 14 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: Ill ask you the same thing I ask NewEra. If Lamar has played his worse in the playoffs and Josh jas played his absolute best and they have both accomplished the same things than what does that say about Josh? Does that intimate that if Lamar plays a little bit better he would win a SB while Josh has already hit his ceiling? But neither has the ultimate goal. Ok Josh has 1 more AFCCG loss than Lamar What does that say about what surrounds Josh. Put it like this, most of us know the Ravens are built to give us problems and probably have the most talent in the NFL. But we are only worried about them because it's the regular season. You guys fold harder than even we do, but in your case the QB1 is leading the charge. In our case, it is everybody but QB1. You swap QB's and the Bills are in the same place but the Ravens are SB champions and probably multiple times. Lamar's playoff losses Baltimore has allowed 22.4 PPG, in Buffalo? 31.3 PPG, Last 3 years? 20.33 vs 28.66. Allen has had to overcome over a TD more on average in defeat than Jackson. Again, you give Baltimore that ball protection and that production and it's lights out. They just haven't gotten that. Edited September 5 by Mikie2times Quote
NewEra Posted September 5 Author Posted September 5 21 hours ago, FranchiseSavior said: Josh hasnt won anything either. You guys keep labeling Lamar as a choker when Josh hasn't gotten it done either 25 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: With all of Josh's astronomical stats and if he's this elite playoff QB what has that gotten him? If we take your narrative what does that say about Josh? He has played his best ball in the playoffs and has nothing to show for it. Meanwhile Lamar has choked (your words not mine) and has accomplished as much as the guy that has been at his best. Here’s your problem in this conversation. You’re so butthurt about the term “choker”…..yet you don’t understand what the term even means. I’ll reword the AI so maybe it’ll be easier for you to comprehend: question: ”Is losing the same as choking in terms of sports”. answer: “No, losing is not the same as choking in sports. Choking is a specific way of losing, characterized by a significant and uncharacteristic drop in performance during a critical, high-pressure moment. Losing, on the other hand, is a general outcome that can happen for many reasons”. Josh doesn’t have a significant or uncharacteristic drop in performance in these games. Lamar does. The stats that I’ve posted prove that. That’s why he’s labeled as a “choker”. It’s clear as day and there’s a reason all the national pundits (and most nfl fans) say the same thing over and over and over and over every time they talk about Lamar in the playoffs. I’m sorry that those comments hurt your soul and make you angry. You’ll just have to get over it and deal with it until he doesn’t choke. His narrative as a playoff choker will continue until he isn’t. Just like we have to deal with the KC is our daddy stigma. We’ll deal with it until we beat them or make/win the Super Bowl. Football is a team sport and Josh’s defense has given up 31.3 points per game in his season ending losses while Josh’s offenses scored 23.6 Baltimores defense has given up an average of 22.4 ppg in season ending losses. The ravens Lamar led offenses have scored an average of 13.4 ppg in those losses. Prior to last years game vs Buffalo- Baltimore averaged 10.5 ppg in his 4 playoff losses. But he didn’t choke. ROFL. maybe all the words mixed in with the numbers has you confused so I’ll put them together with all the words. in season ending losses: Josh Allen led offense scored 23.6ppg Allen’s defense gave up 31.3 ppg Lamar led offense scored 13.4 ppg Lamars defense gave up 22.4 ppg. in summary- Lamar failed his defense down by playing like crap. Buffalo defense failed Josh by playing like crap. THIS IS WHY YOUR BOY IS LABELLED AS A CHOKER. BECAUSE HE HAD A “significant and uncharacteristic drop in performance” in season ending losses”. Josh isn’t labeled a choker because he doesn’t. I wonder what you were thinking when he threw the ball to Taron Johnson to lose the game. Let me guess- andrews ran the wrong route. thoughts (other than: “Josh hasn’t been to a Super Bowl”- because that’s not the conversation). Our conversation has revolved around choking. Quote
NewEra Posted September 5 Author Posted September 5 26 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: Ill ask you the same thing I ask NewEra. If Lamar has played his worse in the playoffs and Josh jas played his absolute best and they have both accomplished the same things than what does that say about Josh? Does that intimate that if Lamar plays a little bit better he would win a SB while Josh has already hit his ceiling? But neither has the ultimate goal. Ok Josh has 1 more AFCCG loss than Lamar It says that Josh’s defense SUCKS in big games. The defense CHOKES. McDermott CHOKES. Just like your boy. 13.4 ppg when losing. I showed you the stats. It doesn't say anything about Josh except that his team failed him. Your logic is severely flawed and your common sense isn’t common among humans with brains. Josh has more than one more AFCCG loss. He has good performances (including an all time performance) in which his supporting cast failed him. And that’s why Lamar has a different narrative- as I’ve stated for you several times. in case you missed it. in season ending losses: Josh Allen led offense scored 23.6ppg Allen’s defense gave up 31.3 ppg Lamar led offense scored 13.4 ppg Lamars defense gave up 22.4 ppg. Quote
NewEra Posted September 6 Author Posted September 6 39 minutes ago, Mikie2times said: What does that say about what surrounds Josh. Put it like this, most of us know the Ravens are built to give us problems and probably have the most talent in the NFL. But we are only worried about them because it's the regular season. You guys fold harder than even we do, but in your case the QB1 is leading the charge. In our case, it is everybody but QB1. You swap QB's and the Bills are in the same place but the Ravens are SB champions and probably multiple times. Lamar's playoff losses Baltimore has allowed 22.4 PPG, in Buffalo? 31.3 PPG, Last 3 years? 20.33 vs 28.66. Allen has had to overcome over a TD more on average in defeat than Jackson. Again, you give Baltimore that ball protection and that production and it's lights out. They just haven't gotten that. 1 hour ago, BigDingus said: If that argument can be made, it's not because he made a Super Bowl 4 seasons ago. It's because he's putting up crazy numbers in general. Here's Burrow's stats from that AFCCG: 22/38 comp / 250 pass yards / 2 TDs / 1 INT / 86.5 passer rating (25 rush yards). The game prior to that, Josh Allen had: 27/37 comp / 329 pass yards / 4 TDs / 0 INTs / 136.0 passer rating (68 rush yards). Tell me, which QB played better? If Allen's defense held KC to 3 points in a half + OT in ONE of his 4 games, he'd have appeared in a Super Bowl. Meanwhile, Lamar's defense actually shut out the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the 2023 AFCCG... *************** Next point - Josh being a "turnover machine" has always been a silly narrative. "He leads the league in turnovers since he entered the league!" makes it sound way worse than it was, primarily because only him, Mahomes, Carr, Goff & Russell Wilson who played nearly every game over that span. And over that time, Allen also has the most TDs of everyone. Josh entered the league in 2018 & only missed a handful of games his rookie year. Who else was starting the next 7 years? You have QBs that were in the league at that time retired or lost the starting job at some point in the following years (Brady, Big Ben, Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Cam). You have QBs that were missed time, were benched or injured at various points (Dak, Cousins, Winston, Mayfield, Darnold, Stafford, Jones, Tannehill, Flacco, Wentz) You have QBs that were drafted years later and/or also injured/benched at various points (Herbert, Burrow, Tua, Purdy, Hurts, Richardson, Young, Kyler Murray, Mack Jones) League Leader in turnovers by Year: 2018: Josh Rosen 2019: Jameis Winston 2020: Carson Wentz 2021: Trevor Lawrence 2022: Josh Allen 2023: Sam Howell 2024: Kirk Cousins + Baker Mayfield + Will Levis So only one of those years was Josh actually the league leader in turnovers. And in that stretch, he also put up 262 TDs & had a 2.38 to 1 TD to turnover ratio. He averaged 9 more TDs & 5 more turnovers a season than Lamar. Is that horrible? I would say no, especially when TDs equal ACTUAL points, while turnovers equal POTENTIAL points for the opponent. You could commit 4 turnovers in a game & have the opponent score 3 points off that. Meanwhile, if you score 4 TDs in a game, that's 24 points on the board. Which is more important? ****************** Lastly, just to really bring up how ridiculous the whole "Allen doesn't deserve MVP" argument is, let's compare the last 2 MVPs: 2023 Lamar Jackson - 67% completions / 3,678 pass yards / 29 Total TDs / 13 Turnovers / 821 rush yards / 102.7 passer rating 2024 Josh Allen - 64% completions / 3,731 pass yards / 41 Total TDs / 8 Turnovers / 531 rush yards / 101.4 passer rating So Lamar had better completion %, rush yards & passer rating, while Josh had more pass yards, TDs & less turnovers. How exactly would 2023 Lamar deserve MVP but 2024 Allen does not? These are both great players, but to act like one is just so beneath the other or "overrated" is ridiculous. And both are better than Burrow. 2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: QB gets more credit and more blame than they should in wins and losses. Thats the name of the game. The narrative right now is that Lamar chokes because Lamars stats are worse in these playoff losses than they are in the regular season. His playoff stats in general, even factoring in the wins, are worse than the regular season. Allen has the best stats in NFL history in the post season across many categories. There is a distinct difference of when you play your best and worst football of the season, and too many times Lamar has made mistakes. The bolded above - you just made an excuse for a self inflicted turnover by Lamar, that is a devastating mistake, and won that easily contributed significantly to the Ravens loss with the fumble you said was "Lamar trying to make something out of nothing". That is a mistake no matter how you cut it, and the kinds of mistakes that don't happen with guys like Brady, Mahomes, etc who have dominated the AFC the past 2 eras as often in big moments. Case in point - Josh Allen did this too much, hence his tendency for turnovers, but he doesn't do it in the playoffs. In fact his TD-TO ration in the postseason is the best in NFL history if I am not mistaken. Lamar - not so much. Allen had to stop pressing when plays arent there and realize its better to not force the issue and just take a sack or throw away and live to fight another down. Lamar pressing trying to make something happen out of nothing cost his team the ball in a close game. That is a big mistake, and one Lamar has made too many times in playoff losses. That is why there is the narrative on Lamar, he factually plays worse in the postseason than his MVP regular seasons. Stop with the facts gents. Facts don’t carry any weight in this conversation. The ONLY thing that matters is that Josh, Lamar (and Tua) have never won or been in a Super Bowl. Football is not a team sport either. The only thing that matters is the QB playing in the SB. Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 6 Posted September 6 4 hours ago, NewEra said: It says that Josh’s defense SUCKS in big games. The defense CHOKES. McDermott CHOKES. Just like your boy. 13.4 ppg when losing. I showed you the stats. It doesn't say anything about Josh except that his team failed him. Your logic is severely flawed and your common sense isn’t common among humans with brains. Josh has more than one more AFCCG loss. He has good performances (including an all time performance) in which his supporting cast failed him. And that’s why Lamar has a different narrative- as I’ve stated for you several times. in case you missed it. in season ending losses: Josh Allen led offense scored 23.6ppg Allen’s defense gave up 31.3 ppg Lamar led offense scored 13.4 ppg Lamars defense gave up 22.4 ppg. Josh's team failed him but when I rattle off 7 mistakes that Lamars teammates had and they're excuses. Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted September 6 Posted September 6 6 hours ago, FranchiseSavior said: Ill ask you the same thing I ask NewEra. If Lamar has played his worse in the playoffs and Josh jas played his absolute best and they have both accomplished the same things than what does that say about Josh? Does that intimate that if Lamar plays a little bit better he would win a SB while Josh has already hit his ceiling? But neither has the ultimate goal. Ok Josh has 1 more AFCCG loss than Lamar No disrespect but what your response was to what I said really doesn’t make sense. Quote
FranchiseSavior Posted September 6 Posted September 6 16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: No disrespect but what your response was to what I said really doesn’t make sense. It mens Josh has played his absolute best and it wasn't enough. While Lamar has played his absolute worse and we haven't seen his best.. Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted September 6 Posted September 6 11 minutes ago, FranchiseSavior said: It mens Josh has played his absolute best and it wasn't enough. While Lamar has played his absolute worse and we haven't seen his best.. So - In other words, you’re saying Lamar has choked and hence his reputation. 1 Quote
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