shadowdog69 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year and now we've lost a key guy that will probably show a bigger impact then everyone thinks. Hope I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick in* england Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Not really worried at all. 10 out of 11 return. Pat only took half of the snaps last year anyway. We have capable replacements in Ron Edwards and (hopefully) Tim Anderson. All good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowdog69 Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 Not really worried at all. 10 out of 11 return. Pat only took half of the snaps last year anyway. We have capable replacements in Ron Edwards and (hopefully) Tim Anderson. All good. 374362[/snapback] I hope ur right, but he only took half the snaps because his only job was to stop the run. If the team is passing then there was not much point in putting him out there. I hope ur right about Edwards and/or Anderson!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year and now we've lost a key guy that will probably show a bigger impact then everyone thinks. Hope I'm wrong. 374359[/snapback] I'm too worried about the O-Line right now to worry about the D-Line. OOhhhh!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 There will be a slight drop-off, but nothing too serious in my opinion. Pat Williams was a great run-stuffer but Ron Edwards flashed some great skills last year when he was plugged into the lineup. Plus, we didnt draft Anderson on Day One last year just to have him ride the pine his entire career. The D-Line doesnt worry me at all, we've got some good depth at DT. Will they be as good as Pat Williams this year? Probably not...but they'll be good enough to keep our Defense rollin' along. If we could just get that craptacular LT spot fixed now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 There will be a slight drop-off, but nothing too serious in my opinion. Pat Williams was a great run-stuffer but Ron Edwards flashed some great skills last year when he was plugged into the lineup. Plus, we didnt draft Anderson on Day One last year just to have him ride the pine his entire career. The D-Line doesnt worry me at all, we've got some good depth at DT. Will they be as good as Pat Williams this year? Probably not...but they'll be good enough to keep our Defense rollin' along. If we could just get that craptacular LT spot fixed now... 374376[/snapback] Pretty exactly. The good news for us regarding this is that though the Edwards improvement in his game last year was as a pass rusher rather than the PW forte of run defense, it is great for us that Edwards did this while actually putting on about 20 pounds. Increasing his strength and weight are things he needs and needed to do to fill in for Phat Par and to have done this while retaining (and actually improving) his sack ability is a great sign. Anderson is an unknown, but we need a plan B if Edwards goes down or does not work out and Anderson is a great plan B. He actually might be a plan C because part of Phat Pat losing snaps at DT last year actually appeared to occur because none other than DE Denney was stalwart enough against the run that on some third downs the Bills actually went with all three DEs (Kelsay, Schobel and Denney) on the field at the same time (this mix was part of Sam Adams throwing a fit for being benched when it was Edwards in the line-up instead of him with a good dose of DEs) and this rotation is actually something we use with the zone-blitz to confuse the offense a lot. The loss of PW is regrettable because he is a good player but appears to be something we are well situated to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year and now we've lost a key guy that will probably show a bigger impact then everyone thinks. Hope I'm wrong. 374359[/snapback] no fat, slow and old is not a long term recipe for success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 There are many whose opinions that I respect on this board that are worried about losing PW. I am not, not even a little. In fact, I am glad to see him gone. I would much prefer a more agile DT, and I hope that both Edwards and Anderson will offer us this. Pat Williams was tipping the scales at approx. 375 last year imo. I am thinking that ankles on a man his age and his size do not last so long. Admittedly, I thought that TW was all but done for similar reasons when the Bills released him, and I was flat out wrong; but make no mistake; PW was a far cry from Big Ted. I would rather the Bills give it a go with 2 young players, one of whom entering his prime than over pay an overweight, fading football player. Jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brihs2005 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Also remember that milloy wasn't in there for more than 1/4th the season, that could have led to a few more close wins in my opinion. I think we have a top five defense and should remain inside the top three, barring any injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Also remember that milloy wasn't in there for more than 1/4th the season... Vincent missed almost 10 full games last season, and wasn't 100% in the final 4 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 No worries here. The offense should be interesting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebraskan 4 Bills Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 07/03/05 - In a commentary, Larry Felser of the Buffalo News made this prediction: "One of the biggest improvements for the Bills this season may come with some of their young players having breakthrough years. My hunch for one of the major breakthroughs is Chris Kelsay, who finally won the starting job at left defensive end over the last nine games after sharing with Ryan Denney. Kelsay figured out what he was doing during the Bills' winning streak. He should be better this year." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year and now we've lost a key guy that will probably show a bigger impact then everyone thinks. Hope I'm wrong. 374359[/snapback] NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOMED!!!! Just let them play the games. Nobody else out there is going to the Superbowl this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year... The Bills were tied for 2nd (with 3 other teams) for lowest yards per rush given up by a defense last year, at 3.6 YPR. Washington was best at 3.1. Do you know who THEIR DT's were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawnboy1977 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 actually I'm more worried about this rash I found. It's killing me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stussy109 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Edwards needs to put on about 15lbs of fat/muscle, and we have an equal to phat pat... I don't know if you have noticed but edwards has bulked up every year. I wouldn't be surprised if edwards was surprisingly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick in* england Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Edwards needs to put on about 15lbs of fat/muscle, and we have an equal to phat pat... I don't know if you have noticed but edwards has bulked up every year. I wouldn't be surprised if edwards was surprisingly good. 374611[/snapback] No and yes. Edwards will be good. But if he stays leaner he can continue to be a great pass rusher... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 While a small drop off wouldn't surprise me, I think there is a reason that Williams by far played his best football with Sam Adams on the other side. Plus I expect that our secondary, which was pretty damn good last season, should be far better with all the injury/draft depth we now have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBXBILLSFAN Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 A slow, aging, declining Pat Williams was not exactly the key to our defense. We will be much better with the agile and athletic Ron Edwards, backed up by the intense, high effort Tim Anderson. In addition, Kelsay and McGee are developing, Vincent and Milloy will have a full year together at safety, and backups like Baker and Greer will have a year under their belts. In other words, Pat who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40+ Year Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Not really. Xcellent people behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I am not so worried about the yards they give up,think they will be pretty equal, but think they will be hard pressed to equal the turnover numbers from last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I don't think Pat Williams could anyways handle if Sam was out of the lineup. He needed Sam as much to make plays. While I will miss him, he has spent 10 years with the bills and it is time to move on and give our younger players a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I'm too worried about the O-Line right now to worry about the D-Line.OOhhhh!!! 374369[/snapback] Agreed...The O-Line is a much bigger Unknown than the D-line...the two guys Anderson and Edwards know the system and have been in it (edwards for the last 4 years and Anderson last year)....The question in front of them is, do they have the mental capacity to learn and play the game....and only way to find that out is by Putting them on the field. However with the O-line, we have two new starters on the left side and they have to be in sync with the rest of the line....while the two guys on the left might be capable of doing it, they need time to adjust to the tendenacies of the rest of the line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 We've got some quick linebackers and obviously one of the best secondary in the league, but with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. I say we're one Sam Adams injury away from a disaster against the run. I don't have time to look up the exact stats but I believe that was the worst part of our defence last year and now we've lost a key guy that will probably show a bigger impact then everyone thinks. Hope I'm wrong. 374359[/snapback] Don't Worry, Be Happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 What really bothered me last year is that Pat Williams wasn't the best DT on our team in a CONTRACT YEAR..... I loved the younger Big Pat...the guy would could penetrate the backfield and made big plays.....but I havn't seen that Pat for about 2 years......and you would expect to see him when he is showcasing talent to the league for big money......... I gotta say...I am excited to see with Tim Anderson can do...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I loved the younger Big Pat...the guy would could penetrate the backfield and made big plays.....but I havn't seen that Pat for about 2 years......and you would expect to see him when he is showcasing talent to the league for big money......... 374895[/snapback] And that too with Big Sam playing alongside him. Pat was a good player, but could never handle things alone. He has spent 10 seasons and it is time to move on to fresh young talent and let them play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 with Williams gone, I'm worried about our defence against the run. 374359[/snapback] Like you, I believe we have FAR more to fear in relation to the quality of our DLine against the run than we do about any other area of our team. For Christ's sake- at least on the OLine we have a rotation of guys who have actually played at this level! Here's a string expanding on those concerns: DLine Woes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurlyBurly51 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Nope. 374943[/snapback] I am, and it will be one of the top two things that bear watching this summer (LT being #1). I relate it to what happened to Urlacher here in Chicago. When Ted was around the guy was an all pro, as soon as he leaves all off a sudden he's heavily criticized and labeled by some as overrated. I think if London has a big OL in his grill all game then we're going to be very frustrated watching teams break into the secondary consistently, which also takes us out of favorable down and distance situations, leading to less turnovers. Sam and Pat were proven at protecting the LBs from the bigguns, allowing them to freely roam the field to pursue and make plays. We're a very situational team, where Sam and Pat were to stop them on first and second, and put the opposition at higher risk in 3rd and passing situations. That won't happen if they're pounding it at will on you. Not saying it will happen, but it is a concern until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 That won't happen if they're pounding it at will on you. Not saying it will happen, but it is a concern until proven otherwise. 374969[/snapback] Every unknown is a concern going into training camp. Hopefully, training camp and pre-season flushes out these issues and the best players come out good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I am, and it will be one of the top two things that bear watching this summer (LT being #1). I relate it to what happened to Urlacher here in Chicago. When Ted was around the guy was an all pro, as soon as he leaves all off a sudden he's heavily criticized and labeled by some as overrated. I think if London has a big OL in his grill all game then we're going to be very frustrated watching teams break into the secondary consistently, which also takes us out of favorable down and distance situations, leading to less turnovers. Sam and Pat were proven at protecting the LBs from the bigguns, allowing them to freely roam the field to pursue and make plays. We're a very situational team, where Sam and Pat were to stop them on first and second, and put the opposition at higher risk in 3rd and passing situations. That won't happen if they're pounding it at will on you. Not saying it will happen, but it is a concern until proven otherwise. 374969[/snapback] I thought Edwards passed Williams in big play making ability last season. Pat was like a 400 pound pet rock, he's hard to move and that's about it. But Edwards actually has the ability to penetrate as a pass rusher. I'm glad Williams is gone because I want to see Brady on his @ss this season. As for LT being the number one priority. If Drew were still here then I would agree. Seeing how Losman's big thing is the ability to run then I'm not as worried about the LT spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 We're a very situational team, where Sam and Pat were to stop them on first and second, and put the opposition at higher risk in 3rd and passing situations. That won't happen if they're pounding it at will on you. Not saying it will happen, but it is a concern until proven otherwise. 374969[/snapback] Even if Anderson evolves as a good run stopper, we will have merely a "starting rotation" of three interior linemen- one a superior interior player who can excel against the run and pass, a one-dimensional pass rusher and one making his plays on first and second down. This is basically a "bare cupboard" DLine rotation in today's NFL and any peek at our schedule should be a warning to our management to bring in competent help on the interior DLine before the 5th week of the coming season. If it doesn't happen you won't have to worry about London Fletcher getting knocked around the field all season by OLinemen- he'll be an injury casualty before we reach week 17 due to his big heart/play through anything style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Even if Anderson evolves as a good run stopper, we will have merely a "starting rotation" of three interior linemen- one a superior interior player who can excel against the run and pass, a one-dimensional pass rusher and one making his plays on first and second down. This is basically a "bare cupboard" DLine rotation in today's NFL and any peek at our schedule should be a warning to our management to bring in competent help on the interior DLine before the 5th week of the coming season. If it doesn't happen you won't have to worry about London Fletcher getting knocked around the field all season by OLinemen- he'll be an injury casualty before we reach week 17 due to his big heart/play through anything style. 374993[/snapback] I think we relied heavily on a rotation of DL players last year because that us the way the run-blitz as employed by the Bills wotked. Wiliiams lined up for less than 60% of the D snaps last year because we rotated Phat Pat and Adams as the starting DTs, brought in Edwards on definite passing downs, sometimes moved Denny to DT (causing the benched Adams to complain) and initially Bannan but phased him into the G position as his play there improved our redzone production and Anderson indicated he deserved some playing time. The rotation which you describe as bare cupboards will essentially be the same as the one which helped create a good D last year but will employ Edwards and Anderson for the less than 2/3 of D snaps where PW used to play. If Edwards or Anderson are simply credible as run-stoppers the rotation and play will be about the same. As far as Fletcher playing with OL guys in his grill that was basically what we had in 2001 and 2002 (with Phat Pat here) once Big Ted left and before Adams got here so he can handle it. The key is that the 2001 and 02 teams were ineffective cause they relied on talents like Sean Moran (great back-up but not a starter) and Chidi Ahanatou as starters. The current Bills D which sports Kelsay rather than Ahanatou, Edwards/Anderson rather than Moran, and Spikes rather than Robinson is so much better than the 01/02 models there is no comparison, There may be a drop-off dfrom PW to RE, but it is minor compared to the improvements over the old model where fkletcher had to wade through things on his own for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 He played very well on the Rams. What great DTs did he have over there to protect him? I just don't see the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurlyBurly51 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 He played very well on the Rams. What great DTs did he have over there to protect him? I just don't see the problem. 375015[/snapback] I don't recall the exact years, but I do remember one year Fletcher was being ridden out of plays and making tackles 6 or 7 or more yards down the field, then for the next season when Sam came in London was able to pursue more freely and make plays much closer to the line of scrimmage. His tackle numbers may have been similar, but there was a distinct difference in where he was making them. Just as for any LB, the DT's need to keep the OL off them and they will make the plays to stop the run. Otherwise you might be in on the plays, but you're not really stopping the run when you're tackling 6 yards downfield. I was just answering the guys question - with Sam and Pat there was not a problem, now with Pat gone and a lesser run stopping replacement, that could spell trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 He played very well on the Rams. What great DTs did he have over there to protect him? I just don't see the problem. 375015[/snapback] He had a lot less wear and tear on his body back then, plus he's now in his 30s. Unlike a lot of other 'backers in the league who would take less risk if the line underperforms and a game has gotten away from the D, London will continue to play full out even if Edwards proves to be the run sieve I see when he's in on rushing downs. This will expose London to a higher risk of injury than some slacker who gives up. To answer your question about who he played behind in St. Louis while London was winning his Super Bowl ring- the Rams used a rotation of Ray Agnew, DeMarco Farr and Jeff Zgonina. Being only the 3rd best lineman in that rotation, Zgonina is still a productive interior guy in Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 He had a lot less wear and tear on his body back then, plus he's now in his 30s. Unlike a lot of other 'backers in the league who would take less risk if the line underperforms and a game has gotten away from the D, London will continue to play full out even if Edwards proves to be the run sieve I see when he's in on rushing downs. This will expose London to a higher risk of injury than some slacker who gives up. 375049[/snapback] Good point. I just want you to be wrong for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 He had a lot less wear and tear on his body back then, plus he's now in his 30s. Unlike a lot of other 'backers in the league who would take less risk if the line underperforms and a game has gotten away from the D, London will continue to play full out even if Edwards proves to be the run sieve I see when he's in on rushing downs. This will expose London to a higher risk of injury than some slacker who gives up. To answer your question about who he played behind in St. Louis while London was winning his Super Bowl ring- the Rams used a rotation of Ray Agnew, DeMarco Farr and Jeff Zgonina. Being only the 3rd best lineman in that rotation, Zgonina is still a productive interior guy in Miami. 375049[/snapback] DeMarco Farr was light in his behind, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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