Keon drops 60 in Damar's celebrity basktball gam

[nedboy7]

Josh could strain his L5/S1 playing golf. Someone needs to go break his clubs. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

No chance. Some of you really undervalue what it takes to be an NBA player. Randy Moss was a great athlete, no doubt, but he wasn’t NBA material. He likely could’ve played division 1 somewhere, but not as a starter on an ACC team. To put it into context, Moss is barely bigger than Steph Curry. Barely. He’s a little guy on the hardwood. At his size he’d have to play the 1 or the 2 but he doesn’t have skills for either of those positions. He dominated high school basketball because of his athletic ability, dunking over smaller kids, but division 1 is a whole ‘nother animal, and the NBA is an entirely different one on top of that…
 

 

Why Randy Moss chose football

 

this isn't the NBA of the late 80's or early 90's, when teams were stacked.  Now most teams have one superstar maybe and 1 or 2 other guys.

 

every roster has a few MarJon Beauchamp's and Pacome Dadiets.  terrible pros.

[Brand J]

10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

this isn't the NBA of the late 80's or early 90's, when teams were stacked.  Now most teams have one superstar maybe and 1 or 2 other guys.

 

every roster has a few MarJon Beauchamp's and Pacome Dadiets.  terrible pros.

Moss wasn’t a perimeter player. At his size and skill level he wouldn’t even see the bench on an NBA team. Take his own word for it.

 

EDIT: and those “terrible” pros would school him and 99% of other basketball players.

Edited 7 hours ago by Brand J

[Mat68]

You would have to take Tom Izzo’s word for it.  Pre draft he did an interview and said he thought Keon had the potential to be a pro basketball player.  After his freshman season he made Keon make a choice football or basketball.  Coleman picked football.  Now could Izzo have swayed him to focus on football we would never know.  Overall, Keon is one of the last and few 2 sport athletes. Rarely do you see double scholarship players.  His game is real.  The level he could have reached will always be an unknown. His game is better just about anybody you will ever meet. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Moss wasn’t a perimeter player. At his size and skill level he wouldn’t even see the bench on an NBA team. Take his own word for it.

 

EDIT: and those “terrible” pros would school him and 99% of other basketball players.

 

well "99% of other basketball players" includes you and me..so what?

 

 

 

anyway, guys like the one's I listed aren't good pro players.  they simply aren't.  Moss could have easily sat on the Knicks bench throughout the early 2000's and racked up 1.9 minutes per game over a season.   NBA roster has 15 active players.  Moss is as tall or taller than 6 guys on the roster, including 3 starters.  There's not much reason to believe that a garbage time scrub on a 17-65  team (Jaden Springer on the Jazz, for instance) is going to school a prime young Moss on the court. 

 

people commonly make the error of concluding that, since a player is on a pro roster, that they are simply better at that sport than every other player who didn't make it.  that fallacy is revealed when we see crappy players like Ryan Leaf and Nate Peterman starting games.  you would have to be crazy to believe that either of those bums would "school 99%" of all other QBs in the country, simply because they made a roster. 

1 minute ago, Mat68 said:

You would have to take Tom Izzo’s word for it.  Pre draft he did an interview and said he thought Keon had the potential to be a pro basketball player.  After his freshman season he made Keon make a choice football or basketball.  Coleman picked football.  Now could Izzo have swayed him to focus on football we would never know.  Overall, Keon is one of the last and few 2 sport athletes. Rarely do you see double scholarship players.  His game is real.  The level he could have reached will always be an unknown. His game is better just about anybody you will ever meet. 

 

Well, Izzo never played him-he obviously felt he was more likely to excel at football than at basketball, hence the kind advice. If he was that good, he would never have made him choose.  Why on earth would he?  plenty of NFL guys played a lot of D1 basketball.  It's easy to conclude that Coleman's game was not as good as any of those guys.

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

well "99% of other basketball players" includes you and me..so what?

 

 

 

anyway, guys like the one's I listed aren't good pro players.  they simply aren't.  Moss could have easily sat on the Knicks bench throughout the early 2000's and racked up 1.9 minutes per game over a season.   NBA roster has 15 active players.  Moss is as tall or taller than 6 guys on the roster, including 3 starters.  There's not much reason to believe that a garbage time scrub on a 17-65  team (Jaden Springer on the Jazz, for instance) is going to school a prime young Moss on the court. 

 

people commonly make the error of concluding that, since a player is on a pro roster, that they are simply better at that sport than every other player who didn't make it.  that fallacy is revealed when we see crappy players like Ryan Leaf and Nate Peterman starting games.  you would have to be crazy to believe that either of those bums would "school 99%" of all other QBs in the country, simply because they made a roster. 

You said that Moss “could’ve made a career as a starter on an NBA team,” a statement you’ve wisely walked back from. Your assertion that Moss was good enough to ride the bench on an early 2000s Knicks team (or any other team for that matter) is still fallacy. Did you listen to Moss in that YouTube video? Where he admitted to being discouraged and realizing he didn’t have a basketball future when he participated at a high school all star competition? It’s okay to take the L here.
 

Moss wasn’t running a team at point, breaking guys down off the dribble, or splashing threes, all prerequisites for the 1 and 2 positions where he would’ve had to play. Ask yourself honestly: could Moss run a team at point? No? Okay, was he skilled enough to play the two guard? No? He wasn’t good enough, skill wise, to even start on a high level division 1 collegiate basketball team, yet you’re trying to put him on an NBA roster. Sure.

[Mat68]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

well "99% of other basketball players" includes you and me..so what?

 

 

 

anyway, guys like the one's I listed aren't good pro players.  they simply aren't.  Moss could have easily sat on the Knicks bench throughout the early 2000's and racked up 1.9 minutes per game over a season.   NBA roster has 15 active players.  Moss is as tall or taller than 6 guys on the roster, including 3 starters.  There's not much reason to believe that a garbage time scrub on a 17-65  team (Jaden Springer on the Jazz, for instance) is going to school a prime young Moss on the court. 

 

people commonly make the error of concluding that, since a player is on a pro roster, that they are simply better at that sport than every other player who didn't make it.  that fallacy is revealed when we see crappy players like Ryan Leaf and Nate Peterman starting games.  you would have to be crazy to believe that either of those bums would "school 99%" of all other QBs in the country, simply because they made a roster. 

 

Well, Izzo never played him-he obviously felt he was more likely to excel at football than at basketball, hence the kind advice. If he was that good, he would never have made him choose.  Why on earth would he?  plenty of NFL guys played a lot of D1 basketball.  It's easy to conclude that Coleman's game was not as good as any of those guys.

 

Im curious what active player in the NFL was a two sport athlete in college.  Football and basketball.  Im going to guess 0. Sure you have the gates, Gonzalez and some other college basketball players switch to football post college.  In today’s day and age with specialization most are concentrating on one sport by junior year in high school.  Not the 80’s and 90’s 2 scholarship athletes are rare.  
 

At 19 Coleman was not better than his teammates who practiced and trained for basketball year round. Or not better to justify playing over guys committed to the team.  Coming on the team mid season as a freshman working himself into basketball shape vs football shape wasnt going to lend himself to being in the rotation.  Especially, an old school coach like Izzo.  
 

He wasnt going to achieve at either sport because he was limiting his growth by not giving his all to either.  Using his freshman playing time as a reason his ability is less isnt telling the whole story there.  

[Mr. WEO]

48 minutes ago, Brand J said:

You said that Moss “could’ve made a career as a starter on an NBA team,” a statement you’ve wisely walked back from. Your assertion that Moss was good enough to ride the bench on an early 2000s Knicks team (or any other team for that matter) is still fallacy. Did you listen to Moss in that YouTube video? Where he admitted to being discouraged and realizing he didn’t have a basketball future when he participated at a high school all star competition? It’s okay to take the L here.
 

Moss wasn’t running a team at point, breaking guys down off the dribble, or splashing threes, all prerequisites for the 1 and 2 positions where he would’ve had to play. Ask yourself honestly: could Moss run a team at point? No? Okay, was he skilled enough to play the two guard? No? He wasn’t good enough, skill wise, to even start on a high level division 1 collegiate basketball team, yet you’re trying to put him on an NBA roster. Sure.

 

Fair enough--not a starter, but could ride the bench for the Jazz or the Pelicans.  The examples I gave show this. Supreme athlete who could play--there's a lot of guys  down the bench in the NBA who never play simply because they aren't good enough.  They are there to mop up in garbage time and run in practice.  No teams are asking any of them to break guys down off the dribble, splash 3's or run the point.  You know this.

[Brand J]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fair enough--not a starter, but could ride the bench for the Jazz or the Pelicans.  The examples I gave show this. Supreme athlete who could play--there's a lot of guys  down the bench in the NBA who never play simply because they aren't good enough.  They are there to mop up in garbage time and run in practice.  No teams are asking any of them to break guys down off the dribble, splash 3's or run the point.  You know this.

Yeah you still don’t get it. Those guys who are riding the bench aren’t good enough relative to their NBA peers, but they’re much more skilled basketball players than Moss ever was. Could Moss have focused on basketball and reinvented his game to be a perimeter player? There’s nothing that suggests he couldn’t have - other than his admission to being discouraged playing amongst legit high school basketball players - but Moss at his skill level coming out of high school wasn’t a future NBA prospect. You know this.

[Mr. WEO]

33 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

 

Im curious what active player in the NFL was a two sport athlete in college.  Football and basketball.  Im going to guess 0. Sure you have the gates, Gonzalez and some other college basketball players switch to football post college.  In today’s day and age with specialization most are concentrating on one sport by junior year in high school.  Not the 80’s and 90’s 2 scholarship athletes are rare.  
 

At 19 Coleman was not better than his teammates who practiced and trained for basketball year round. Or not better to justify playing over guys committed to the team.  Coming on the team mid season as a freshman working himself into basketball shape vs football shape wasnt going to lend himself to being in the rotation.  Especially, an old school coach like Izzo.  
 

He wasnt going to achieve at either sport because he was limiting his growth by not giving his all to either.  Using his freshman playing time as a reason his ability is less isnt telling the whole story there.  

 

Moe Alie-Cox is one.  Specialization is player choice nowadays.

 

It's pretty simple--if Izzo thought he could use Coleman, he would have developed him and encouraged him. 

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Moe Alie-Cox is one.  Specialization is player choice nowadays.

 

It's pretty simple--if Izzo thought he could use Coleman, he would have developed him and encouraged him. 

He asked him to commit full time to basketball.  Coleman picked football. That was the point.  Izzo saw the talent and had Coleman make the choice to concentrate on football or basketball.  

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Moe Alie-Cox is one.  Specialization is player choice nowadays.

 

It's pretty simple--if Izzo thought he could use Coleman, he would have developed him and encouraged him. 

Mo Allie Cox played basketball at VCU not football.  UDFA without football experience.  

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

He asked him to commit full time to basketball.  Coleman picked football. That was the point.  Izzo saw the talent and had Coleman make the choice to concentrate on football or basketball.  

I read that the two mutually agreed he should choose football. There are a lot more Keon Colemans from a size and athletic standpoint in division 1 basketball than there are in division 1 football. Football was definitely a brighter future for him. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Brand J said:

Yeah you still don’t get it. Those guys who are riding the bench aren’t good enough relative to their NBA peers, but they’re much more skilled basketball players than Moss ever was. Could Moss have focused on basketball and reinvented his game to be a perimeter player? There’s nothing that suggests he couldn’t have - other than his admission to being discouraged playing amongst legit high school basketball players - but Moss at his skill level coming out of high school wasn’t a future NBA prospect. You know this.

 

How did you conclude that guys like Jaden Springer are much better than Moss and his HS game?  he played 15 games in college, then was inexplicably drafted into the NBA, where he has played 8 minutes a game on 3 different teams over 4 years, scoring under 3 PPG.  He's not a good pro basketball player at all. He's a practice body.  Moss could have been such.  

 

As for being discouraged with basketball, I bet if he had better guidance in his youth, he could easily gotten to D1 prospect and ended up as the 15th guy on a bad NBA team.  His youth was pockmarked with difficulty--much of his own making.  I think this affected his confidence.

 

Again, as for getting a deep bench spot in the NBA, the bar is not nearly as high as you claim.  It's the Peterman fallacy.  He's historically awful, yet he still bounces around the league.  That doesn't mean that there aren't very good college QBs (Div 1A or Div 2) out there who are "not good enough" simply because they weren't noticed/scouted/drafted/signed by an NFL team.

 

The claim that you have to be better than all other players at your position just because you got a roster spot on a pro team is intuitively false and proven so frequently.  You can't reasonably conclude that every scrub in the NBA is better than any other player who did not get the opportunity to play...simply because they made a roster.  

 

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

He asked him to commit full time to basketball.  Coleman picked football. That was the point.  Izzo saw the talent and had Coleman make the choice to concentrate on football or basketball.  

Mo Allie Cox played basketball at VCU not football.  UDFA without football experience.  

 

why would a coach tell a supremely talented kid that he recruited that he shouldn't continue with basketball if he was that good or had that much potential?  Why wouldn't he say, "forget football, you're going to be a star here"?

[NewEra]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

this isn't the NBA of the late 80's or early 90's, when teams were stacked.  Now most teams have one superstar maybe and 1 or 2 other guys.

 

every roster has a few MarJon Beauchamp's and Pacome Dadiets.  terrible pros.

You’re underestimating the talent in today’s nba.  Just because teams have less superstars now doesn’t have any affect on the talent level on the roster.  
 

95% of the the best teams in the 80’s and 90’s had 2 terrible pros on them.  Look at the lakers teams from 80-86-  they have 3-4 of them

[WeckMonster]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

this isn't the NBA of the late 80's or early 90's, when teams were stacked.  Now most teams have one superstar maybe and 1 or 2 other guys.

 

every roster has a few MarJon Beauchamp's and Pacome Dadiets.  terrible pros.

This is WAY off. Basketball talent is 1000x better than even 20 years ago. Played in high school and now involved in travel circuit through my teenage kids. The skill level is insane. Early specialization, way better coaching, YouTube, camp circuits, etc.

 

That’s just US. The game has globalized and 25% of the NBA is now international.  That number will hit 50% in the next 20 years.

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

Yeah you still don’t get it. Those guys who are riding the bench aren’t good enough relative to their NBA peers, but they’re much more skilled basketball players than Moss ever was. Could Moss have focused on basketball and reinvented his game to be a perimeter player? There’s nothing that suggests he couldn’t have - other than his admission to being discouraged playing amongst legit high school basketball players - but Moss at his skill level coming out of high school wasn’t a future NBA prospect. You know this.

Some people forget that Moss had an example of this right in front of his face during high school — Jason Williams, Moss’ point guard. The guy got to see what top basketball talent and practice took every day in a friend and teammate of his; a guy who was ultimately drafted in the top 10 and had a very notable NBA career. They won a state basketball championship together, but as athletic as Moss was it was Williams skill and basketball mind that drove that team. 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How did you conclude that guys like Jaden Springer are much better than Moss and his HS game?  he played 15 games in college, then was inexplicably drafted into the NBA, where he has played 8 minutes a game on 3 different teams over 4 years, scoring under 3 PPG.  He's not a good pro basketball player at all. He's a practice body.  Moss could have been such.  

 

As for being discouraged with basketball, I bet if he had better guidance in his youth, he could easily gotten to D1 prospect and ended up as the 15th guy on a bad NBA team.  His youth was pockmarked with difficulty--much of his own making.  I think this affected his confidence.

 

Again, as for getting a deep bench spot in the NBA, the bar is not nearly as high as you claim.  It's the Peterman fallacy.  He's historically awful, yet he still bounces around the league.  That doesn't mean that there aren't very good college QBs (Div 1A or Div 2) out there who are "not good enough" simply because they weren't noticed/scouted/drafted/signed by an NFL team.

 

The claim that you have to be better than all other players at your position just because you got a roster spot on a pro team is intuitively false and proven so frequently.  You can't reasonably conclude that every scrub in the NBA is better than any other player who did not get the opportunity to play...simply because they made a roster.  

 

 

 

 

 

why would a coach tell a supremely talented kid that he recruited that he shouldn't continue with basketball if he was that good or had that much potential?  Why wouldn't he say, "forget football, you're going to be a star here"?

There’s a league full of NBA hopefuls called the G League, maybe you’ve heard of it. It’s a step up from division 1 basketball. The players in the G League, maybe with one or two exceptions, aren’t better or can’t do what is asked of them consistently than the 12th man on an NBA bench.
 

You can argue with yourself about how Moss is, or could’ve been an NBA prospect - despite no evidence to the contrary and after Moss himself thanked legit basketball players for pushing him to football - but it’s an exercise in stupidity. Sorry, but it is. One of the players Moss mentioned that was at that high school basketball all star game - Schea Cotton - was a high school legend. If anyone was destined to play in the NBA it’d be him, right? Nope, he didn’t make it. And neither did the multitudes of other McDonald’s High School All Americans. If it was enough to be a supremely athletic 6’4” guard with minimal basketball skill, then yes, Moss could have made it and rode a bench. But it’s not enough. NBA players are far more skilled than you give them credit for.
 

Randy Moss was not skilled enough for the NBA. Period.

[Buffalo716]

Randy Moss did get division 1 basketball college scholarship offers 

 

So by that junction, he was good enough to be a high major basketball player.. 

 

He even won West Virginia basketball player of the year over his future NBA teammate Jason Williams... That doesn't necessarily mean he was better 

 

But it does mean he had a college future and a potential for maybe more

 

What he is is humble, and he gives people like Jason Williams shout outs.. but Jason Williams will say Randy Moss could have played pro ball

Edited 3 hours ago by Buffalo716

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, WeckMonster said:

This is WAY off. Basketball talent is 1000x better than even 20 years ago. Played in high school and now involved in travel circuit through my teenage kids. The skill level is insane. Early specialization, way better coaching, YouTube, camp circuits, etc.

 

That’s just US. The game has globalized and 25% of the NBA is now international.  That number will hit 50% in the next 20 years.

And this Jaden Springer kid he’s poo poo’ing was also an “all everything” high school player who had been playing varsity since 8th grade. And then was a standout in the SEC and in the G League. He was also a finals MVP and won a title in that league. Terrible NBA player? Sure, I can grant you that, but as terrible as he is - relative to his NBA peers - he’s still clearly a more skilled basketball prospect than Randy Moss ever was.

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Randy Moss did get division 1 basketball college scholarship offers 

 

So by that junction, he was good enough to be a high major basketball player.. 

 

He even won West Virginia basketball player of the year over his future NBA teammate Jason Williams... That doesn't necessarily mean he was better 

 

But it does mean he had a college future and a potential for maybe more

 

What he is is humble, and he gives people like Jason Williams shout outs.. but Jason Williams will say Randy Moss could have played pro ball

I thought Moss could play D1 somewhere, but I stand by the belief he wouldn’t have been a starter on a high end basketball team. Didn’t have the skills and leadership to run the point, wasn’t a good enough perimeter player to play the two.

[Buffalo716]

23 minutes ago, Brand J said:

And this Jaden Springer kid he’s poo poo’ing was also an “all everything” high school player who had been playing varsity since 8th grade. And then was a standout in the SEC and in the G League. He was also a finals MVP and won a title in that league. Terrible NBA player? Sure, I can grant you that, but as terrible as he is - relative to his NBA peers - he’s still clearly a more skilled basketball prospect than Randy Moss ever was.

I thought Moss could play D1 somewhere, but I stand by the belief he wouldn’t have been a starter on a high end basketball team. Didn’t have the skills and leadership to run the point, wasn’t a good enough perimeter player to play the two.

The NBA in 2025 is way different than it was in 1997 

 

You didn't need as much of a perimeter game back then... He's 6'4 could jump out the roof .. he had solid handles for a cg

 

Guys like that would live within 15 ft of the hoop 25-30 years ago.. then when he got hot maybe he would take a couple threes 

 

Guys back then, even Reggie Miller was only taking 6 threes a game... Players with Moss's skill set would literally be shooting two or three a game max... Guys like Rodrick rhodes was a 2 who literally didn't even attempt one three a game... You didn't need to be that player back then

 

But his athleticism, rebounding skills, and ability to get to the hoop we're all something that would absolutely get build upon if he actually played division one basketball.. and if he got even a little bit more consistent jumper, there is absolutely a chance he could've made a leap in basketball 

 

 it's not like the modern NBA where guys sit at the three-point line and chuck up 10 a game

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Buffalo716