More defense on Saturday, please, to finish the job, and take the final step

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

He lost to the following

 

Bears team that went 15-3

49ers team that went 14-3 

Seahawks team that went 14-3 and one that went 8-9

Vikings team that went 14-3

Rams team that went 15-3

Vikings team that went 11-6

Tampa Team that went 13-5 

 

In nearly every game he was up against a team with a better record. What makes you think the outcome would have been different for McD? With exception of the Baltimore games his playoff wins are against Wild Card level teams. He has never beat anybody with the records of the games Payton lost. 

 

 

 

Payton lost to the 7-9 Seahawks....first team ever to make the playoffs with a losing record in 2011.

Payton was the first coach to lose in the 1st round of the NFL playoffs after winning 13 games in 2020.  

Saints were the first NFL team that lost 6 straight playoff games by 1 score.

Payton lost to QB's like Case Keenum, Matt Hasselbeck, Collin Kapernick and Kirk Cousins in the playoffs.

Payton missed the playoffs 6 or 7 times with Drew Brees and all of his offensive talent.....

 

[Mikie2times]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Payton lost to the 7-9 Seahawks....first team ever to make the playoffs with a losing record in 2011.

Payton was the first coach to lose in the 1st round of the NFL playoffs after winning 13 games in 2020.  

Saints were the first NFL team that lost 6 straight playoff games by 1 score.

Payton lost to QB's like Case Keenum, Matt Hasselbeck, Collin Kapernick and Kirk Cousins in the playoffs.

Payton missed the playoffs 6 or 7 times with Drew Brees and all of his offensive talent.....

 

And he was above .500 in the playoffs with the Saints 9-8, Super Bowl win, and has beaten a team that has won 13 games in the playoffs before. All things our guy is either worse at or has never accomplished. I'm not part of the Payton fan club, but crapping on him while throwing praise at our guy is a bit humorous.  

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

And he was above .500 in the playoffs with the Saints 9-8, Super Bowl win, and has beaten a team that has won 13 games in the playoffs before. All things our guy is either worse at or has never accomplished. I'm not part of the Payton fan club, but crapping on him while throwing praise at our guy is a bit humorous.  

 

So you're just cherry picking 3 things.

 

McDermott never lost to a team with a losing record in the playoffs.

McDermott hasn't lost 6 straight playoff games by one score.

McDermott has missed the playoffs once in his career and it was Allen's rookie year.  Payton missed the playoffs 6 times with Drew Brees and had a 3 consecutive non-playoff seasons at one point.  

 

 

All things that Payton is worse than McDermott.

[Mikie2times]

59 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So you're just cherry picking 3 things.

 

McDermott never lost to a team with a losing record in the playoffs.

McDermott hasn't lost 6 straight playoff games by one score.

McDermott has missed the playoffs once in his career and it was Allen's rookie year.  Payton missed the playoffs 6 times with Drew Brees and had a 3 consecutive non-playoff seasons at one point.  

 

 

All things that Payton is worse than McDermott.

I'm cherry picking and you're doing what exactly?

 

I asked a simple question, who would you pick with a top 5 team and one year to win the Super Bowl. Payton or McD? It's a landslide, don't even have to think about it for me. I don't care if Marty makes the playoffs a lot. I'm not picking Marty and I'm not picking Marty's brother either. Payton has at least shown big game stones, like calling for an onside kick in the Super Bowl. If you would take McD over Payton for that journey be my guest, nothing left to discuss AND EVERYBODY is cherry picking what they want to justify whatever opinion they have. THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS LITERALLY THAT. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

I'm cherry picking and you're doing what exactly?

 

I asked a simple question, who would you pick with a top 5 team and one year to win the Super Bowl. Payton or McD? It's a landslide, don't even have to think about it for me. I don't care if Marty makes the playoffs a lot. I'm not picking Marty and I'm not picking Marty's brother either. Payton has at least shown big game stones, like calling for an onside kick in the Super Bowl. If you would take McD over Payton for that journey be my guest, nothing left to discuss AND EVERYBODY is cherry picking what they want to justify whatever opinion they have. THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS LITERALLY THAT. 

 

LOL...I was just showing you what you're doing.

 

The thing is, you're looking at this in a vacuum.  

 

What juggernaut NFC team did Payton have to battle every year?  A team that has done what the Chiefs have done.  

Patrick Mahomes has played in now 7 AFC Championships and 5 Super Bowls in his 8 years as starting QB.  No one has ever had this type of run before and this is the team that has knocked us out 4 times.  

If we played in the NFC or if the Chiefs were in the NFC, Bills would have had Super Bowl appearances.  But it's not the case because KC is in our conference and a hill we haven't overcome.  What NFC juggernaut in Payton's time kept him from more Super Bowls?  

McDermott's hill is much harder to climb than Payton's ever was.  All the best QB's are in the AFC (Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Jackson)....that's a gauntlet.  That's what makes what Mahomes has done even more impressive.  

There was I believe 13-14 different starting QB's representing the NFC Super Bowl during Payton's run in New Orleans.  It was a wide open NFC and he missed the playoffs 7 times in that stretch.

[Mikie2times]

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL...I was just showing you what you're doing.

 

The thing is, you're looking at this in a vacuum.  

 

What juggernaut NFC team did Payton have to battle every year?  A team that has done what the Chiefs have done.  

Patrick Mahomes has played in now 7 AFC Championships and 5 Super Bowls in his 8 years as starting QB.  No one has ever had this type of run before and this is the team that has knocked us out 4 times.  

If we played in the NFC or if the Chiefs were in the NFC, Bills would have had Super Bowl appearances.  But it's not the case because KC is in our conference and a hill we haven't overcome.  What NFC juggernaut in Payton's time kept him from more Super Bowls?  

McDermott's hill is much harder to climb than Payton's ever was.  All the best QB's are in the AFC (Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Jackson)....that's a gauntlet.  That's what makes what Mahomes has done even more impressive.  

There was I believe 13-14 different starting QB's representing the NFC Super Bowl during Payton's run in New Orleans.  It was a wide open NFC and he missed the playoffs 7 times in that stretch.

I suppose the AFC east has had no impact on us at all. Everybody else is the benefactor, Buffalo is eternally disadvantaged with injuries, competition, and  circumstances. Oh the pains of this vacuum I'm living in. 

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I suppose the AFC east has had no impact on us at all. Everybody else is the benefactor, Buffalo is eternally disadvantaged with injuries, competition, and  circumstances. Oh the pains of this vacuum I'm living in. 

 

I mean if you want to go down the dramatic teen route to try to make a point....

 

[Gunsgoodtime]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

And he was above .500 in the playoffs with the Saints 9-8, Super Bowl win, and has beaten a team that has won 13 games in the playoffs before. All things our guy is either worse at or has never accomplished. I'm not part of the Payton fan club, but crapping on him while throwing praise at our guy is a bit humorous.  

Right. We are talking about a guy who has had Josh Allen as his QB for 7 years now and has not even made 1 SB appearance.  Without Josh Allen Mcd and Beane wouldn't be in Buffalo, Big baller beane has drafted 1 elite player in 7 years, Josh Allen

Edited 8 hours ago by Gunsgoodtime

[Simon]

39 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

Big baller beane has drafted 1 elite player in 7 years, Josh Allen

 

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

Greg Rousseau

James Cook

Ed Oliver

Terrel Bernard

With the jury still out on Torrence, Kincaid and another 2-3 from the most recent class

 

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

Greg Rousseau

James Cook

Ed Oliver

Terrel Bernard

With the jury still out on Torrence, Kincaid and another 2-3 from the most recent class

 

Spencer Brown is a Pro Bowl player, Benford is Pro Bowl player, and Cook is a Pro Bowl player. None of the 3 are at an all pro level. Brown is the most likely to get there. No way in hell Oliver, Rousseau, or Bernard are part of that conversation at this point. Your response is sort of the point of his post.

 

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Spencer Brown is a Pro Bowl player, Benford is Pro Bowl player, and Cook is a Pro Bowl player. None of the 3 are at an all pro level. Brown is the most likely to get there. No way in hell Oliver, Rousseau, or Bernard are part of that conversation at this point. Your response is sort of the point of his post.

 

 

They are all elite players on the field regardless of the popularity contests you prefer to rely on.

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

They are all elite players on the field regardless of the popularity contest you prefer to rely on.

Oh give me a break. Says who? Bernard has had one really good year. Oliver has had how many postseasons to change a game and failed to do so? Benford just broke out along with Cook. Groot just got abused in his last playoff game and has a career best 8 sacks in a season. Are they really "elite" or more like top 15 guys?

 

These players have never been voted on the All Pro team. Zero top 100's. So is this back to the poor disenfranchised Buffalo players not getting respect? It gets old. They aren't elite, that's why they don't get elite respect. I know that is a stunning conclusion. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

Greg Rousseau

James Cook

Ed Oliver

Terrel Bernard

With the jury still out on Torrence, Kincaid and another 2-3 from the most recent class

 

0 Elite players

[sven233]

It all depends on your definition of "elite".  In my opinion, that's top 5 in the league at your position.  None of the names on this list are top 5 at their positions in the league yet.

 

That said, Brown is close in my opinion.  He had games last season that were absolutely dominant.  Thought he had his worst game of the season in the AFC Championship so that doesn't help his case.  But, he's right there.  Benford did receive 1 All Pro vote if I remember correctly.  He's very good.  "Elite"?  Not in my opinion.  He's got great numbers, but I don't look at him like a true shut down CB that you will have travel with the best WRs in the league.  He's great in our defensive scheme, though, which is all you can ask.  As for the other guys on this list, they all have elite moments, but are not elite players.  They are very good, but not elite. 

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, sven233 said:

It all depends on your definition of "elite".  In my opinion, that's top 5 in the league at your position.  None of the names on this list are top 5 at their positions in the league yet.

 

That said, Brown is close in my opinion.  He had games last season that were absolutely dominant.  Thought he had his worst game of the season in the AFC Championship so that doesn't help his case.  But, he's right there.  Benford did receive 1 All Pro vote if I remember correctly.  He's very good.  "Elite"?  Not in my opinion.  He's got great numbers, but I don't look at him like a true shut down CB that you will have travel with the best WRs in the league.  He's great in our defensive scheme, though, which is all you can ask.  As for the other guys on this list, they all have elite moments, but are not elite players.  They are very good, but not elite. 

That's exactly how I feel about each player.  Maxx Crosby, TJ Watt, Micah Parsons, Myles Garret, etc. Do we have to even ask this question for these guys? The more you have to think about it the more clear the answer is. 

[VW82]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

Spencer Brown

Christian Benford

Greg Rousseau

James Cook

Ed Oliver

Terrel Bernard

With the jury still out on Torrence, Kincaid and another 2-3 from the most recent class

 

 

You forgot Taron who was absolutely elite for several years and maybe the best draft pick Beane has made (unless you want to give all the credit to McD which I get). 

 

Also, although he didn't make it with us, Wyatt Teller was an elite guard for the Browns. Beane deserves some credi (and criticism) for that.  

[HappyDays]

27 minutes ago, sven233 said:

Benford did receive 1 All Pro vote if I remember correctly.  He's very good.  "Elite"?  Not in my opinion.  He's got great numbers, but I don't look at him like a true shut down CB that you will have travel with the best WRs in the league.

 

For my money there's really only two guys in that tier though, Surtain and Stingley. Then's there a cluster of really good CBs with little discernible difference from one to another and Benford to me fits in cleanly to that group. It's really hard in the modern NFL for a CB to be a true game changing player. In that light I view the position the same way that I view OT. And Brown is someone I personally would put into the elite category already even though it has just been the one elite season, but again an elite RT is not going to be a true game changer.

 

The Bills problem is that pass rushers and pass catchers are the biggest game changers (behind QB obviously) and we don't have anyone that really comes close to being elite at those positions. Oliver is very good, Rousseau is very good although more as a run stopper than a pass rusher, and Shakir is very good but plays a limited role. When you look at Super Bowl teams in recent years they usually have an elite pass catcher AND an elite pass rusher, sometimes multiple of each. Without either the margins are slim. Allen is almost enough on his own to overcome it, but unfortunately "almost" has been the ceiling. Hopefully Bosa rejuvenates his career and/or we get immediate impact from Sanders or Jackson. As far as pass catchers... hope that Kincaid or Coleman take a huge step forward.

[Mister Defense]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So you're just cherry picking 3 things.

 

McDermott never lost to a team with a losing record in the playoffs.

McDermott hasn't lost 6 straight playoff games by one score.

McDermott has missed the playoffs once in his career and it was Allen's rookie year.  Payton missed the playoffs 6 times with Drew Brees and had a 3 consecutive non-playoff seasons at one point.  

 

 

All things that Payton is worse than McDermott.

 

Doing that over and over,  and each, of course, less sound than the previous batch, idea:

 

Changing what he is saying in the middle of a conversation, because the idea, and the cherry picked info to support it, was so faulty and had been so easily ripped apart.

 

Then, with the new goal, new idea (as the first, well, we just didn't understand the nuance...) more cherry picked info to support that.  So this time even weaker than the last stuff, as now he is on the ropes, knows it, is flailing

 

Then, again, and by this time most would have given up, or hopefully seen the light, but nope, just digging in the heels.  And now writing even more posts!, thinking that a slew of meaningless posts, and increasingly angry, immature ones, will somehow compensate for the arguments being ripped to shreds so easily, repeatedly.

 

Hopes to wear out the other posters, have the last word, then convince himself he won this debate.  But he lost it almost as soon as he started.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Mister Defense

[Mikie2times]

10 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Doing that over and over,  and each, of course, less sound than the previous batch, idea:

 

Changing what he is saying in the middle of a conversation, because the idea, and the cherry picked info to support it, was so faulty and had been so easily ripped apart.

 

Then, with the new goal, new idea (as the first, well, we just didn't understand the nuance...) more cherry picked info to support that.  So this time even weaker than the last stuff, as now he is on the ropes, knows it, is flailing

 

Then, again, and by this time most would have given up, or hopefully seen the light, but nope, just digging in the heels.  And now writing even more posts!, rapid fire, thinking that a slew of meaningless posts, and increasingly angry, immature ones, will somehow compensate for the arguments being ripped to shreds so easily, repeatedly.

 

Hopes to wear out the other posters, have the last word, then convince himself he won this debate.  But he lost it almost as soon as he started.

 

What are we debating?

[Simon]

59 minutes ago, sven233 said:

It all depends on your definition of "elite".

 

I guess that's what it really boils down to.

For me it's a guy that does multiple things at a very high level, is highly respected by both his teammates and opponents and causes coaches to specifically have to deal with him a certain way every week.

Others look more toward voting contests or statistics; I prefer to watch what they actually do on the field.