Wide Receiver Train Full Speed Ahead- CHOO CHOO!

[Returntoglory]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

We didn’t need Justin Jefferson in 2020 to have a WR1 in 2025.

 

JJ was like the fifth WR off the board. No one could have known that he was going to be arguably the greatest WR ever.

 

We traded for a known commodity in the league to help propel Josh to superstardom and it worked swimmingly. I have zero complaints on that aspect.

 

The problem is that Beane has a vendetta against all great WRs because Diggs left on acrimonious terms. That’s it. He’s had plenty of chances to find the next WR1 and refused to do so.

" We didn’t need Justin Jefferson in 2020 to have a WR1 in 2025".

 

Seriously? We lost a first round pick, gained a head case ( Then lost him a few years later for NOTHING) and are once again having the never-ending conversation that ANYONE with NFL knowledge is having.

 

I have friends that follow other teams that constantly are asking me " Who is the #1 WR on Buffalo these days?".

 

It's EMBARRASSING to be in this situation. 

 

Why do you think Josh has to put on his Superman cape!

 

I'm starting to think that Beane is not only Josh's Kryptonite,  he's the Francises as well!

 

[FireChans]

Just now, Returntoglory said:

" We didn’t need Justin Jefferson in 2020 to have a WR1 in 2025".

 

Seriously? We lost a first round pick, gained a head case ( Then lost him a few years later for NOTHING) and are once again having the never-ending conversation that ANYONE with NFL knowledge is having.

 

I have friends that follow other teams that constantly are asking me " Who is the #1 WR on Buffalo these days?".

 

It's EMBARRASSING to be in this situation. 

 

Why do you think Josh has to put on his Superman cape!

 

I'm starting to think that Beane is not only Josh's Kryptonite,  he's the Francises as well!

 

Seriously.

 

We could have found multiple WR1's for 2025. BTJ was gettable. Pickens was available. DK was available (and for the same price we basically got when Diggs left)

 

We could have traded Diggs, got a second, used that second to get Metcalf and still had a WR1.  No Justin Jefferson required and basically a net zero transaction despite a gap year in 2024 where we had to eat his cash.

 

Diggs was great in his time in Buffalo. Had the greatest 4 year stretch in franchise history by a WR. Maybe JJ would've been just as good, who knows?  But trading for Diggs isn't the reason we don't have a WR1 today. He's just not. 

[Returntoglory]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Seriously.

 

We could have found multiple WR1's for 2025. BTJ was gettable. Pickens was available. DK was available (and for the same price we basically got when Diggs left)

 

We could have traded Diggs, got a second, used that second to get Metcalf and still had a WR1.  No Justin Jefferson required and basically a net zero transaction despite a gap year in 2024 where we had to eat his cash.

 

Diggs was great in his time in Buffalo. Had the greatest 4 year stretch in franchise history by a WR. Maybe JJ would've been just as good, who knows?  But trading for Diggs isn't the reason we don't have a WR1 today. He's just not. 

I completely agree! As my original post stated ( which as usual was merged) It's BEANE!

 

All the wasted picks, trades and signings on Defense for what?

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Returntoglory said:

As my original post stated ( which as usual was merged)

 

The first line of your "original" post was We've discussed Ad nauseam the lack of wide receiver talent surrounding Josh, which you then followed up with an ad nauseum discussion regarding Diggs and Jefferson, despite the fact that there were already about 5 threads about the WR position you could have posted in.

I cannot possibly imagine why it was merged. 🙄

 

[Returntoglory]

30 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

The first line of your "original" post was We've discussed Ad nauseam the lack of wide receiver talent surrounding Josh, which you then followed up with an ad nauseum discussion regarding Diggs and Jefferson, despite the fact that there were already about 5 threads about the WR position you could have posted in.

I cannot possibly imagine why it was merged. 🙄

 

My post was targeting the ineptitude of Beane specifically pointing out the Justin Jefferson debacle. 

 

But I guess you're right, I did mention " Wide receiver ". 🤔

[Simon]

Just now, Returntoglory said:

My post was targeting the ineptitude of Beane

 

Well that's even funnier considering that there are probably even more threads about Beane's ineptitude than there are about WR 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Agree with your first bit, not so much the second bit.

 

I'll break it down.

 

"In 2022, we extended Diggs and had an ascending Davis (coming off his 4 TD KC game), but they needed a future Slot guy and the signed Crowder and drafted Shakir (who has been a big hit for them out of the 5th round)."

 

100% true. The corollary to the ascending Davis + Diggs extension meant that the clock was ticking on losing Davis almost assuredly after his rookie deal. Which was only 2 seasons away. And Diggs was extended well before the draft. This left us EXTREMELY top heavy at WR. We had Digg+Davis with a 2 year window and basically nothing behind them. 

 

Now, DURING 2022, we famously, desperately, brought back Beasley and Brown midseason to give the WR room more juice. This is the most damning piece of evidence that WR needed to be addressed. Our own GM was dumpster diving with former Buffalo players well past their era. It would be like if we brought back Jordan Poyer/Tre White this year and then didn't address the safety and CB positions in the draft next year. Unconscionable, but exactly what happened prior. 

 

First of all, like the response - don't agree with all of it, which is ok, but appreciate the thought out and detailed reply.  

 

You left out 2 key parts in 2022, that we resigned McKenzie and we signed Crowder, both to compete in the slot along with rookie Shakir.  And people around here argued with me non stop that McKenzie was going to break out that year when I said he had no business starting, including some very prominent posters.  Crowder, who had been a proven productive slot guy, was the likely starter while they groomed the rookie Shakir and had McKenzie in his normal gadget role - but Crowder got hurt.  That is what led to them bringing back Cole, and that also had a lot to do with how stupid Dorsey was who decided to bring the ghost of Cole in instead of getting Shakir more snaps.  

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

"In 2023, Diggs was on his first year of his extension and Davis left some real question marks about his long term future as a WR2.  They start looking for a Davis replacement in that draft, and they tried to trade up more than once and got rebuffed which led to a 4 pick WR run in front of us.  They went with the best pass catching weapon on their board still in Kincaid."

 

This is true, but there's other rounds besides round 1. Jayden Reed was a second rounder, Rashee Rice was a second rounder, Marvin Mims a second rounder, Tank Dell a third rounder, Josh Downs a third rounder, Tre Tucker a third rounder etc etc.

 

Again, they know they likely aren't backing up the Brinks truck for Gabe Davis at this point. Shakir has proven nothing thus far. They are completely top heavy, again, and they bring in two jokers that are somehow worse than the corpses of Beasley and Brown in Harty and Sherfield. The train is coming down the tracks. We are 1 offseason away from our backs against the wall in terms of needing to basically nail a starting WR pick.

 

Also minor point, but 2023 Diggs was not on the first year of his extension. He was extended with 2 seasons left. He didn't play a snap on his extension for the Buffalo Bills.

 

I totally agree, there are more rounds.  But what you miss here is that the Bills used TWO picks on Kincaid already, a first and a 4th.  THAT was the pass catcher investment in that draft.  Then they still used another pick in the 5th on a flyer in Shorter.  And while Davis had question marks, it was also revealed he had played on a bad ankle the whole previous season and there was belief still amongst the team that the ankle held him back in 2022.  And while there were a lot of "us" around here (myself included) that felt Davis was not likely to be back, that doesn't mean the coaches and FO had already made that decision either.  

 

But again, the investment WAS made in a "post Gabe" pass catcher, it just came in the form of a TE given their attempts to move up for a WR were rebuffed and then 4 in a row came off the board ahead of their pick.  Kincaid may be a "TE", but he was drafted to be an offensive weapon for Allen, and a weapon that could be the real WR2 in terms of the 2nd target on the team behind Diggs if Gabe wasn't brought back. 

 

And once they invested 2 picks in one draft to get Kincaid, there were other needs at that point to address outside just "pass catchers" with now Diggs, Davis still here, Shakir (who despite being unknown, they loved and thought highly of) and a 2 headed TE combo of Knox (who they just paid a big extension to) and Kincaid.  They also drafted Cook to also be a receiving weapon out of the backfield in 2022.  And if you look at this draft, 5 picks were used on the offense 1+4 on Kincaid, 2nd on O'Cyrus and 2 day 3 picks that included a WR and OL.  

 

So while I totally agree you can find WR's outside the early rounds (although dont tell the rest of TSW that or they lose their minds as they think the only way to get one is mortgage the entire future and make impossible move ups to get one), the context and facts of this draft is the Bills used 2 early picks on one pass catcher already while they still had a 28 year old top 5 WR in Diggs on a 4 year extension, Davis still one more year who they felt was going to have a bounce back year, a young Shakir, and now a first round TE whose only job was to be a receiving weapon (that also cost them a 4th too).  

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

"2024 - the Diggs relationship with the team deteriorated to the point that not only were they not going to pay Davis to stay, they had no choice but to eat $31M in dead cap for an "addition by substraction" move with Diggs.  This resulted in the team unexpectedly needing to replace both WR1 and WR2 in the same offseason and in a draft where they were already missing a 3rd round pick, and had a lot of turnover on the defense too with cap cuts aging guys out.  "

 

So this was all pretty predictable. We knew guys would get old and need to be replaced, this happens for every team.  Sure, the Diggs disaster was probably not expected BUT Diggs or no Diggs we put ourselves in a scenario where we needed a boundary WR desperately in the first 2-3 rounds. And post-Diggs, we needed 2.  Brandon Beane, draft night, knows we need two starting WRs. We still only took one, and that after trading BACK for more picks to shore up the defense (and that pick was a disaster in Carter and Coleman ain't looking too hot right now.)

 

End of the day, this was never about guys getting old.  This was about a 29 year old top 5 WR with 3 years left on his deal becoming malcontent, forcing the team to essentially trade him, and us taking back a $31M dead cap hit as a result.  

 

And we can say "he should have taken more WR's last year" - but who did we really miss the boat on in the middle rounds in that draft?  The only guys really doing anything were not available at any of our next picks.  What WR in last years draft that we passed on in rounds 2-7 would be changing our season and franchise right now?  

 

This is my entire point - where is this WR room savior in that draft for us to have taken?  There wasn't any - literally - none.  The only 3 WR's who busted out that play on the outside are Nabers, Odunze, and BTJ.  Neither of which were available to us at any point.  The 2 best players drafted after we took Keon have been Ladd and Pearsall, but both were gone by our next pick, and neither were a fit for the Bills needs when we took Keon even as we had a roster full of slot players already.  

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

As for the rest of your post, I agree he saw Allen make lemonade and basically rolled the dice he could do it twice. But he was and is wrong. He can't have it both ways, although he often gets it. He got to play the "we couldn't bring anyone in because Diggs was unexpected and was a massive cap hit" card for one year, then the next season when the books clear and we still have a Diggs-shaped hole on the roster, he gets to say we can't afford to pay big time WR's. 

 

The fact of the matter is that massive WR salaries are new, but not that new. 2022 and on had massive money being thrown towards superstar pass catchers. Part of the GM job is being proactive instead of reactive when it comes to restocking an expensive position group. We should have had 1-2 more Shakir-types who may not have been major contributors in year 1 but waiting in the wings preparing for life after Davis. 

 

Combine that with him consistently building maybe the thinnest WR unit in the NFL after Sanders retired.  You say that WR wasn't a massive need early, but we had Diggs/Davis and basically nobody until 2023 when Shakir burst on the scene. What if Diggs or Davis got injured? We had nothing behind them.  Josh Palmer just got hurt and I think Tyrell Shavers is next man up to start and play 70% of the snaps?  With massive needs at WR the last 2 offseasons? That's criminal lol.  There's a reason teams roster 5-6 WR's. 

 

The fact of the matter is that the Bills have been very proactive for other groups except WR.  We have AJE/Bosa's, Ed Oliver's and Daquan Jones' and Matt Milano's potential replacements all on the roster already, they were all drafted before they needed to st art immediately. I do not agree that Beane was unable to apply that philosophy to WR over the last 4 seasons.

 

I love adding talent, I am not opposed to adding more talent to the WR at all.  All I have been saying is that there is a lot of context to what we have or haven't done. 

 

But one thing I think you have wrong is about us being thin - I would argue that we are actually the opposite, I would say we are more deep compared to most teams with competent WR's, I mean Samuel and Moore can and have started with success on other teams in worse QB situations too.  You can't say that about a lot of teams.  Now last year was different, those 2 didn't work out, but this year I am referencing the deep guys are competent WRs even though we don't use them (which is frustrating on its own). 

 

Where we are actually weak is at the top end of our WR room.  And that is my whole point, there have not been "top end" options for us to go and get the past 3 years.  2023 we tried, but got rebuffed and took the best pass catcher available using a 1st and 4th to get Kincaid.  In 2024 none of the guys who are top end outside WR1s were available when we picked and none have been produced in the picks after either.  In 2025, we already both agree on why Beane felt the D was a bigger issue.  

Edited 15 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[Returntoglory]

24 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Well that's even funnier considering that there are probably even more threads about Beane's ineptitude than there are about WR 

This was a specific situation that involved multiple parties and results, or, lack thereof. 

 

But hey. 

 

It's your ball, right?

[thenorthremembers]

Bottom line is the Bills had a #1 wideout signed through 2026.    Had he not forced his way out he'd likely still be here.  

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Bottom line is the Bills had a #1 wideout signed through 2026.    Had he not forced his way out he'd likely still be here.  

And there has been a huge void since.  They never replaced Diggs, and failed at their few attempts 

[jaybeezee]

1 hour ago, Returntoglory said:

" We didn’t need Justin Jefferson in 2020 to have a WR1 in 2025".

 

Seriously? We lost a first round pick, gained a head case ( Then lost him a few years later for NOTHING) and are once again having the never-ending conversation that ANYONE with NFL knowledge is having.

 

I have friends that follow other teams that constantly are asking me " Who is the #1 WR on Buffalo these days?".

 

It's EMBARRASSING to be in this situation. 

 

Why do you think Josh has to put on his Superman cape!

 

I'm starting to think that Beane is not only Josh's Kryptonite,  he's the Francises as well!

 

I cannot agree more. Beane and McD have waisted way too many drafts on average to below average guys, and I personally feel as though it is coaching and development at this point. How can we be this bad at drafting?

[Solomon Grundy]

Ridley or Jeudy would do it for me.

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Ridley or Jeudy would do it for me.

 

For 2025.  They better ***** draft a good WR in 2006!