Caleb Williams demanding part ownership

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The QB history of a college's QBs can be really bad-UNTIL IT ISN'T.  Example: What QB from Wyoming ever achieved stardom in the NFL before the 2018 draft?  There's a long list of Ohio State QB failures in the NFL, but it looks like the best QB from the 2023 draft came from Ohio State.  If Carolina used the past history of Ohio State QBs to decide to pass on Stroud, it was a pretty poor decision.  

The past failures of other players from a university is irrelevant when scouting a player.  Same is true the other way.  Stanford had produced some pretty good QBs over the years (Elway, Plunkett, Brodie) before Trent Edwards was drafted, but when Trent Edwards was with the Bills, the legacy of Stanford QBs didn't mean anything.  

 

I hear ya, but there's an enomous difference between USC and Wyoming, not really apples to apples there.  USC's a power-5 school, Wyoming on the opposite end.  No one's going to draft a Wyoming QB in the first 10 picks again, likely ever.  

 

I could have added more detail though, a bunch QBs were highly rated as draft prospects, that came from USC.  Leinart, Marinovich, Palmer, Darnold.  Not one, that I'm aware of, has ever gone on to do much in the NFL besides Palmer, who was very good but hardly great.  

 

As well, as you implied, I'm referring to the modern era, say the era of free-agency.  I discount the PAC-10 because they're ranked way below the other four power-5 conferences in terms of defense, perennially.  At least QBs in the SEC, Big-12, ACC, and Big Ten have faced defenses that are among the best in the NCAA on a regular basis.  IMO that's important in evaluating a QB.  

 

Again, I'd avoid it if I were a GM.  I'd rather take a bottom 1st-rounder pick for a QB on a team from one of the other four power-5 conference teams.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I hear ya, but there's an enomous difference between USC and Wyoming, not really apples to apples there.  USC's a power-5 school, Wyoming on the opposite end.  No one's going to draft a Wyoming QB in the first 10 picks again, likely ever.  

 

I could have added more detail though, a bunch QBs were highly rated as draft prospects, that came from USC.  Leinart, Marinovich, Palmer, Darnold.  Not one, that I'm aware of, has ever gone on to do much in the NFL besides Palmer, who was very good but hardly great.  

 

As well, as you implied, I'm referring to the modern era, say the era of free-agency.  I discount the PAC-10 because they're ranked way below the other four power-5 conferences in terms of defense, perennially.  At least QBs in the SEC, Big-12, ACC, and Big Ten have faced defenses that are among the best in the NCAA on a regular basis.  IMO that's important in evaluating a QB.  

 

Again, I'd avoid it if I were a GM.  I'd rather take a bottom 1st-rounder pick for a QB on a team from one of the other four power-5 conference teams.  

 

 

College teams historical players that can help them win now

 

They don't care about future draft prospects... So schools like USC always have one of the best college quarterbacks... But that doesn't always translate 

 

That doesn't mean a quarterback who goes to USC can't be really good

 

Perennial powerhouses want to win college games... They don't care about developing a professional qb

 

Which is a whole different game and animal... But Caleb would've been a Heisman winner at Oklahoma or USC and is not your typical USC qb

 

He has way more pro potential than Leinart or darnold and even palmer in this modern game

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

College teams historical players that can help them win now

 

They don't care about future draft prospects... So schools like USC always have one of the best college quarterbacks... But that doesn't always translate 

 

That doesn't mean a quarterback who goes to USC can't be really good

 

Perennial powerhouses want to win college games... They don't care about developing a professional qb

 

Which is a whole different game and animal... But Caleb would've been a Heisman winner at Oklahoma or USC and is not your typical USC qb

 

He has way more pro potential than Leinart or darnold and even palmer in this modern game

 

No, of course it doesn't mean that a QB that goes to USC can't be really good, but besides Palmer none have been.  And he was never premier.   Maybe a couple of high end seasons, but otherwise not.  

 

I've not watched Williams, so I'm shooting from the hip here.  My comments were general in nature, as you noticed.  

 

But I will say this, he's diminutive for a QB, listed at 6'1"/218

 

But here's the thing, of the five schools that that's beaten up on with gawdy stats, the best ranked D was ASU, at 90th.  Other than that, the other four teams all rank 115th or worse, out of 133.  So essentially among the bottom 10%.  

 

Against Arizona with the 39th ranked D he was good in passing, but not great.  

 

Against 11th ranked Notre Dame he was terrible.  

 

Against teams ranked better than 90th in D, only two, he's 37 of 62, 418, 2 TDs, 3 INTs.  That's good for a 70.5 passer rating in the NFL.  

 

In short, it's nice that he can beat up on Colorado, Nevada, and San Jose St., but those aren't the caliber of players he'll be seeing in the NFL.  

 

I still wouldn't draft him.  But that's me.  I'm a horse of a different color.  LOL  I do think that those are the things that GMs need to look at however upon conducting their drafts.  This ownership crap merely makes me feel good about my decision.   

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by PBF81

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

No, of course it doesn't mean that a QB that goes to USC can't be really good, but besides Palmer none have been.  And he was never premier.   Maybe a couple of high end seasons, but otherwise not.  

 

I've not watched Williams, so I'm shooting from the hip here.  My comments were general in nature, as you noticed.  

 

But I will say this, he's diminutive for a QB, listed at 6'1"/218

 

But here's the thing, of the five schools that that's beaten up on with gawdy stats, the best ranked D was ASU, at 90th.  Other than that, the other four teams all rank 115th or worse, out of 133.  So essentially among the bottom 10%.  

 

Against Arizona with the 39th ranked D he was good in passing, but not great.  

 

Against 11th ranked Notre Dame he was terrible.  

 

Against teams ranked better than 90th in D, only two, he's 37 of 62, 418, 2 TDs, 3 INTs.  That's good for a 70.5 passer rating in the NFL.  

 

In short, it's nice that he can beat up on Colorado, Nevada, and San Jose St., but those aren't the caliber of players he'll be seeing in the NFL.  

 

I still wouldn't draft him.  But that's me.  I'm a horse of a different color.  LOL  I do think that those are the things that GMs need to look at however upon conducting their drafts.  This ownership crap merely makes me feel good about my decision.   

 

 

Height and weight are numbers ... I've talked about that on this board

 

Williams is built the right way... My friend is in Oklahoma booster who helped recruit him ... And he swears he will be 6'2 ... 

 

Even if he was 6'1 7/8... 220 that's thick 

 

He doesn't get taken down by arm tackles and plays way more like elway or mahomes than a Jake locker or Mayfield 

 

He has an absolute Cannon... Can extend plays for 10 seconds, and not one linebacker in the pac-12 can tackle him one on one

 

He's definitely not small..  I think he's bigger than DeShaun Watson  just looking at him on the field

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

31 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Height and weight are numbers ... I've talked about that on this board

 

Williams is built the right way... My friend is in Oklahoma booster who helped recruit him ... And he swears he will be 6'2 ... 

 

Even if he was 6'1 7/8... 220 that's thick 

 

He doesn't get taken down by arm tackles and plays way more like elway or mahomes than a Jake locker or Mayfield 

 

He has an absolute Cannon... Can extend plays for 10 seconds, and not one linebacker in the pac-12 can tackle him one on one

 

He's definitely not small..  I think he's bigger than DeShaun Watson  just looking at him on the field

 

 

Yeah, I realize that.  

 

Of everything currently known, to me the most important thing is how he plays against talent that's likely to make it to the NFL.  That's pretty much my standard for most players.  

 

Tonight he's playing the Utes with the 5th ranked D, and he's not exactly lighting them up either.  

 

Everyone has their methods, that's mine.  It's been pretty proven for me over the years.   

 

 

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

Yeah, I realize that.  

 

Of everything currently known, to me the most important thing is how he plays against talent that's likely to make it to the NFL.  That's pretty much my standard for most players.  

 

Tonight he's playing the Utes with the 5th ranked D, and he's not exactly lighting them up either.  

 

Everyone has their methods, that's mine.  It's been pretty proven for me over the years.   

 

 

Football is the ultimate team game

 

Peyton Manning never beat Florida... 

 

USC is actually not that great outside of williams... Betting ND over USC was a cakewalk

 

USC is not physical... No defense... And nothing in the trenches... They're going to lose four games this year... I don't think they're close to being the best Pac12 team... Utah is playing a former walk on and he can keep it close 

 

USC is the most overrated team in the country

 

But you can't put it on Williams because the team isn't built right 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Football is the ultimate team game

 

Peyton Manning never beat Florida... 

 

USC is actually not that great outside of williams... Betting ND over USC was a cakewalk

 

USC is not physical... No defense... And nothing in the trenches... They're going to lose four games this year... I don't think they're close to being the best Pac12 team... Utah is playing a former walk on and he can keep it close 

 

USC is the most overrated team in the country

 

But you can't put it on Williams because the team isn't built right 

 

 

OK, but at the same time I'm not going to ignore his performances against talent that's heading to the NFL.  

 

I don't know enough about USC to comment, but a quick glance reveals that they're 8th in the nation running the ball, Rushing Yards per Game, and that's not all that much because of Williams.  So their O can't be that bad.  

 

Either way, like I said, everyone has their methods, you know what mine is.  I realize that it's unique, but it's outperformed the others over the years.  I'm quite content with it.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about theirs.  

 

He'll likely be the first QB off the board, without ownership, LOL, so I'm sure we'll be seeing how he's doing by this time next season.  Maybe on NE.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, but at the same time I'm not going to ignore his performances against talent that's heading to the NFL.  

 

I don't know enough about USC to comment, but a quick glance reveals that they're 8th in the nation running the ball, Rushing Yards per Game, and that's not all that much because of Williams.  So their O can't be that bad.  

 

Either way, like I said, everyone has their methods, you know what mine is.  I realize that it's unique, but it's outperformed the others over the years.  I'm quite content with it.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about theirs.  

 

He'll likely be the first QB off the board, without ownership, LOL, so I'm sure we'll be seeing how he's doing by this time next season.  Maybe on NE.  

 

 

It's fine if you don't like him 

 

But he was the best player in the country as a 20 year sophomore

 

There's not a 20 year old kid alive who doesn't have bad performances... Especially when they're not on the greatest team

 

What did you think about Josh Allen's bad performances? Or Peyton Mannings?

 

20-year-old kid struggle because there's a defensive coordinator getting paid on the other side of the ball...Paid to stop him 

 

Urban Meyer refused to start Joe burrow at Ohio State because he said he threw like a girl... Joe burrow couldn't start at OSU

 

And he's a number one pick who went to the super bowl

 

It's all about situations... And how you grow

 

Williams has much more talent than Joe b as 21 year old

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's fine if you don't like him 

 

But he was the best player in the country as a 20 year sophomore

 

There's not a 20 year old kid alive who doesn't have bad performances... Especially when they're not on the greatest team

 

What did you think about Josh Allen's bad performances? Or Peyton Mannings?

 

20-year-old kid struggle because there's a defensive coordinator getting paid on the other side of the ball...Paid to stop him 

 

Urban Meyer refused to start Joe burrow at Ohio State because he said he threw like a girl... Joe burrow couldn't start at OSU

 

And he's a number one pick who went to the super bowl

 

It's all about situations... And how you grow

 

Williams has much more talent than Joe b as 21 year old

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not saying Williams isn’t a good player, or that he won’t be a good pro, but he’s absolutely not a generational prospect like he is touted as being.  I am not even convinced he will be the first pick in the draft this year.  I’m also not seeing the “thickness” you’re talking about. He might not be undersized, but he’s definitely less than ideal size for an NFL quarterback.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

I’m not saying Williams isn’t a good player, or that he won’t be a good pro, but he’s absolutely not a generational prospect like he is touted as being.  I am not even convinced he will be the first pick in the draft this year.  I’m also not seeing the “thickness” you’re talking about. He might not be undersized, but he’s definitely less than ideal size for an NFL quarterback.

A 5'11 198 lb quarterback just got drafted first overall

 

I'm willing to bet Caleb Williams is going to be 220 lb Plus when he enters the draft... John elway was 6'3 225

 

What people considered the perfect prospect... If Caleb is 6'1 223 he's absolutely big enough and not small

 

He's not tall... That doesn't mean he doesn't have the requisite height and Build

 

He's never been taken down easily, or by an arm tackle... Habitually steps up in the pocket through muck and shrugs off would be tacklers

 

He's going to be bigger than what people expect.  I'd be willing to bet he's 220 plus which at 6'1 or 6'2 would be thick..  mahomes is 6'2 230... So 6'1 223 is a good build

 

It's not prototypical height.. but with his skill set and size it's really good

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

A 5'11 198 lb quarterback just got drafted first overall

 

I'm willing to bet Caleb Williams is going to be 220 lb Plus when he enters the draft... John elway was 6'3 225

 

What people considered the perfect prospect... If Caleb is 6'1 223 he's absolutely big enough and not small

 

He's not tall... That doesn't mean he doesn't have the requisite height and Build

 

He's never been taken down easily, or by an arm tackle... Habitually steps up in the pocket through muck and shrugs off would be tacklers

 

He's going to be bigger than what people expect.  I'd be willing to bet he's 220 plus which at 6'1 or 6'2 would be thick..  mahomes is 6'2 230... So 6'1 223 is a good build

 

It's not prototypical height.. but with his skill set and size it's really good

The 5’11” guy drafted first in April would be lucky to go in the first round in a re-draft.  
 

I’m just not seeing it with Williams.  He’s on an absolutely loaded USC team and this is his third unimpressive game in a row.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

The 5’11” guy drafted first in April would be lucky to go in the first round in a re-draft.  
 

I’m just not seeing it with Williams.  He’s on an absolutely loaded USC team and this is his third unimpressive game in a row.

Don't know why you say it's a loaded usc team?

 

I literally picked them to lose four games at the beginning of the year and not win the pac-12... I don't think they're that good

 

In fact over the next 5 years I think Oklahoma is in a better spot losing Williams and Lincoln... And getting venables who will be able to build the defense

 

I think USC is the most overrated team in the country.. if they didn't have Williams there a 4 win team

 

Oregon,  Oregon State, Utah and Washington are all better teams top to bottom

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[mannc]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don't know why you say it's a loaded usc team?

 

I literally picked them to lose four games at the beginning of the year and not win the pac-12... I don't think they're that good

 

In fact over the next 5 years I think Oklahoma is in a better spot losing Williams and Lincoln... And getting venables who will be able to build the defense

 

I think USC is the most overrated team in the country.. if they didn't have Williams there a 4 win team

 

Oregon,  Oregon State, Utah and Washington are all better teams top to bottom

Well that was a great throw…

 

I agree that USC is poorly coached but they still have a lot of talent at the skill positions, like they always do.  

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, mannc said:

Well that was a great throw…

 

I agree that USC is poorly coached but they still have a lot of talent at the skill positions, like they always do.  

That's like saying Alabama had a lot of talent before Nick Saban got there...

 

Of course they had talent.. it's division 1 football... At a premiere program

 

They're getting the best athletes in the country...  But when a 120 teams are getting the best football athletes in the country

 

You got to be able to develop them and put them in the right spots... USC is still 3 years away from competing seriously

 

And they've been a shell of themselves for 15 years now... It takes a little bit to get the pipeline rolling

 

I think they're the fifth most talented team in the pac-12... Certainly not gangbusters

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's fine if you don't like him 

 

But he was the best player in the country as a 20 year sophomore

 

You said a lot here. 

 

I wouldn't say that I don't like him.  I would say that I simply don't trust his circumstances after several decades of watching and evaluating PAC-10 QBs in transition to the NFL, measured against their expectations going into the Draft.  IMO the USC ones have done worse than the collective average.  I haven't poured a ton of resources into gathering that info though.  LOL  I lean on the info I cited up top.  

 

Who knows, maybe he'll be the next Mahomes.  I wouldn't bet much on the notion that he'll ever be better than average.  But then again, the general odds favor that so that's not really a bold prediction or anything.    

 

 

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

What did you think about Josh Allen's bad performances? Or Peyton Mannings?

 

20-year-old kid struggle because there's a defensive coordinator getting paid on the other side of the ball...Paid to stop him 

 

Not quite sure what you mean in that second sentence.  But as to Allen in general, I've mentioned it before, but of all, as in every, QB in his draft, Allen had the worst track record against power-5 competition of all of them.  Allen came into the NFL either without having read defenses well.  I still don't think it's his forte`, but he's absolutely improved by miles on it.  But he's the first QB that I'm aware of that has come into the NFL with that handicap, and overcome it to the extent that he has.  Ever.  IMO it's his intelligence, nothing else, that has allowed it to occur.  He's had positive influences and the like, but it's his smarts that got him to this point.  It was an uphill battle for him as it was.  He didn't have to do that at Wyoming, he was a man among boys there.  But that's also why he sucked vs. the few power-5 teams he played.  Again, worse than any other QB in his draft.  It's remarkable how he's transformed himself.  

 

As of now, today, well, we beat each other up enough in the forum over the perceived reasons there.  LOL  You know the arguments.  I place little on Allen, or the receivers for that matter.  You know where I place the lion's share of the blame there. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Urban Meyer refused to start Joe burrow at Ohio State because he said he threw like a girl... Joe burrow couldn't start at OSU

 

And he's a number one pick who went to the super bowl

 

I honestly don't know much about Burrow until his Senior season at LSU, like everyone else.  My take after watching him that season and in the NCG was that he's for sure going to be great in the NFL.  The only other QB I've thought that about in recent years is Lawrence.  I rarely think that about a QB going in.  He was as poised as they make 'em, and that was against a brutal defense in the biggest of games.  

 

As to Meyer, could be Meyer.  But he's an "expert" as we like to call them here, right?  Some, many "experts" even, simply aren't very good "experts," whether they're GMs, HCs, coordinators, etc.  Simply because someone's in a role doesn't mean that they're average or above-average, much less excel at it.  

 

They're all "experts" and know more than anyone that isn't, ... until they're not.  LOL 

 

And on that note, in a related context, it's interesting how when Saban had the NFL equivalent of 10 picks in the 1st-round in the NFL with his recruiting advantage, how great he and Alabama were.  But the moment that that edge disipated, so did "how good he is."  He's hardly at a disadvantge now, but the playing field's been leveled out quite a bit.  

 

 

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's all about situations... And how you grow

 

Williams has much more talent than Joe b as 21 year old

 

Quite possible.  I haven't analyzed it so I cannot comment intelligently on that.  Nor does it interest me all that much. 

 

I will say, in light of our discussion, it's now 28-17 Utah with 1 Q remaining.  Williams hasn't had all that great a game.  200 yards, 0 TDs.  So let's see how he plays in this last Q, the type of environment he'll be facing in the NFL next year.  Who knows, maybe he'll pitch for 150 and 2 TDs in the 4th Q.  Let's see.  

 

Watching now ... 

 

 

Looks like it's going to come down to Williams' play.  

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by PBF81

[Buffalo716]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

You said a lot here. 

 

I wouldn't say that I don't like him.  I would say that I simply don't trust his circumstances after several decades of watching and evaluating PAC-10 QBs in transition to the NFL, measured against their expectations going into the Draft.  IMO the USC ones have done worse than the collective average.  I haven't poured a ton of resources into gathering that info though.  LOL  I lean on the info I cited up top.  

 

Who knows, maybe he'll be the next Mahomes.  I wouldn't bet much on the notion that he'll ever be better than average.  But then again, the general odds favor that so that's not really a bold prediction or anything.    

 

 

 

Not quite sure what you mean in that second sentence.  But as to Allen in general, I've mentioned it before, but of all, as in every, QB in his draft, Allen had the worst track record against power-5 competition of all of them.  Allen came into the NFL either without having read defenses well.  I still don't think it's his forte`, but he's absolutely improved by miles on it.  But he's the first QB that I'm aware of that has come into the NFL with that handicap, and overcome it to the extent that he has.  Ever.  IMO it's his intelligence, nothing else, that has allowed it to occur.  He's had positive influences and the like, but it's his smarts that got him to this point.  It was an uphill battle for him as it was.  He didn't have to do that at Wyoming, he was a man among boys there.  But that's also why he sucked vs. the few power-5 teams he played.  Again, worse than any other QB in his draft.  It's remarkable how he's transformed himself.  

 

As of now, today, well, we beat each other up enough in the forum over the perceived reasons there.  LOL  You know the arguments.  I place little on Allen, or the receivers for that matter.  You know where I place the lion's share of the blame there. 

 

 

 

I honestly don't know much about Burrow until his Senior season at LSU, like everyone else.  My take after watching him that season and in the NCG was that he's for sure going to be great in the NFL.  The only other QB I've thought that about in recent years is Lawrence.  I rarely think that about a QB going in.  He was as poised as they make 'em, and that was against a brutal defense in the biggest of games.  

 

As to Meyer, could be Meyer.  But he's an "expert" as we like to call them here, right?  Some, many "experts" even, simply aren't very good "experts," whether they're GMs, HCs, coordinators, etc.  Simply because someone's in a role doesn't mean that they're average or above-average, much less excel at it.  

 

They're all "experts" and know more than anyone that isn't, ... until they're not.  LOL 

 

And on that note, in a related context, it's interesting how when Saban had the NFL equivalent of 10 picks in the 1st-round in the NFL with his recruiting advantage, how great he and Alabama were.  But the moment that that edge disipated, so did "how good he is."  He's hardly at a disadvantge now, but the playing field's been leveled out quite a bit.  

 

 

 

Quite possible.  I haven't analyzed it so I cannot comment intelligently on that.  Nor does it interest me all that much. 

 

I will say, in light of our discussion, it's now 28-17 Utah with 1 Q remaining.  Williams hasn't had all that great a game.  200 yards, 0 TDs.  So let's see how he plays in this last Q, the type of environment he'll be facing in the NFL next year.  Who knows, maybe he'll pitch for 150 and 2 TDs in the 4th Q.  Let's see.  

 

Watching now ... 

 

 

Listen I don't think Caleb Williams is going to put on a show every game

 

I've already said I think USC is severely overrated... They have a sieve of a defense... Can't stop a nosebleed... And Williams is going to have to score 35 Plus to win any game

 

You could tell any quarterback in the world you need to score 35 every game and it's going to be tough

 

As somebody who has scouted the top HS and college quarterbacks for years and has gone to All American games to watch them live.. I will say you're looking for traits

 

A live arm... Pocket presence..  accuracy at three levels... The ability to create when plays breakdown... Can You stand tall in the pocket...  Can you shake off would be tacklers... How do you bounce back from a bad play or drive or game... Relative athleticism

 

He checks the box on all of them which most quarterbacks do not do

 

Sabans dynasty at Alabama is predicated on recruiting the best players... With a high ability to develop them

 

He has the ability to recruit the best players in the world which helped his dynasty... Once players didn't like to sit for two or three seasons... Because he was so deep... They started going around the country and the level of talent evened out

 

Most of the best teams in college football are not the best because they have the best X's and O's coach... Which Saban is a defenisive guru also.. they have sustained periods of excellence because they recruit the best players

 

Recruiting is the biggest part of college football dynasties... Saban didn't get worse of a coach these last few years

 

He has been losing Blue Chip talent to other schools that he used to get

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Listen I don't think Caleb Williams is going to put on a show every game

 

I've already said I think USC is severely overrated... They have a sieve of a defense... Can't stop a nosebleed... And Williams is going to have to score 35 Plus to win any game

 

You could tell any quarterback in the world you need to score 35 every game and it's going to be tough

 

As somebody who is scouted the top college quarterbacks for 15 years and has gone to All American games to watch them live.. I will say you're looking for traits

 

A live arm... Pocket presence..  accuracy at three levels... The ability to create when plays breakdown... Can You stand tall in the pocket...  Can you shake off would be tacklers... How do you bounce back from a bad play or drive... Relative athleticism

 

He checks the box on all of them which most quarterbacks do not do

 

OK, makes sense, very conventionally, but it makes sense. 

 

I tend to go beyond conventional in my approach, which is perhaps why the results are typically better than what most draft analysts yield.  

 

We all have our methods. 

 

I will say, you're up-playing Williams' age, but he's only one year younger than Burrow was when Burrow put up his 60 TD 6 INT season.  Burrow also did it with only one prior year of starting.  This is Williams' third season of starting.  Burrow also lit up some insanely great defensive competition.  Williams has yet to do that this season.  

 

Not trying to mix it up with you, but I'd put those things up against the things that you mention first, not second.  LIke I said, we all have our methodologies.  Ours definitely differ with yours being more conventional.  

 

Anyway, Williams has a great opportunity to shine right now, 8:24 remaining, down by 8, at home, against defenses that aren't as good as the top ones that Burrow faced while at LSU and in the SEC, a much tougher defensive conference.  Let's see what happens.  

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by PBF81

[mannc]

Sorry, this guy just does not have it.  He holds the ball way too long, seems to have happy feet, and then makes play like THAT? Avoid.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, makes sense, very conventionally, but it makes sense. 

 

I tend to go beyond conventional in my approach, which is perhaps why the results are typically better than what most draft analysts yield.  

 

We all have our methods. 

 

I will say, you're up-playing Williams' age, but he's only one year younger than Burrow was when Burrow put up his 60 TD 6 INT season.  Burrow also did it with only one prior year of starting.  This is Williams' third season of starting.  Burrow also lit up some insanely great defensive competition.  Williams has yet to do that this season.  

 

Not trying to mix it up with you, but I'd put those things up against the things that you mention first, not second.  LIke I said, we all have our methodologies.  Ours definitely differ with yours being more conventional.  

 

Anyway, Williams has a great opportunity to shine right now, 8:24 remaining, down by 8, at home, against defenses that aren't as good as the top ones that Burrow faced while at LSU and in the SEC, a much tougher defensive conference.  Let's see what happens.  

 

 

I think that's why I message boards are here.. to have good discussions

 

And Caleb really is only starting two and a half seasons... He took over from five Star Spencer rattler at Oklahoma... Spencer rattler was the number one pocket passer in his class and is going to get drafted this year out of South Carolina

 

So he was sitting behind an NFL quarterback as a true freshman that he beat out... And burrow has talent.... And it took him three seasons and a transfer to shine 

 

Caleb had 21 touchdowns and four picks as a true freshman... Insane stats in a power five conference

 

I don't think you could compare their arcs... Burrow as a finished product certainly was supreme... Caleb has been on top everywhere

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Sorry, this guy just does not have it.  He holds the ball way too long, seems to have happy feet, and then makes play like THAT? Avoid.

Certainly isn't perfect

 

But do you know who's open downfield why he's holding the ball so long? Why does Josh hold it so long?

 

If he's holding it because nobody's open and he's trying to create it's really not his problem

 

I think USC is not a good football team

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

That debacle was on Williams.  

 

Say what you want about USC, but this is the second ranked team that they've played, the other having been Notre Dame where Williams was abysmal.  

 

This game and particularly the finish ain't doing him any favors.  This is their toughest game of the season.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Sorry, this guy just does not have it.  He holds the ball way too long, seems to have happy feet, and then makes play like THAT? Avoid.

 

LOL, that's a bit of a reach as well.  But for the reasons I've expressed above, I wouldn't expend a top-10 draft pick, likely not top-15 on him.  

 

 

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think that's why I message boards are here.. to have good discussions

 

And Caleb really is only starting two and a half seasons... He took over from five Star Spencer rattler at Oklahoma... Spencer rattler was the number one pocket passer in his class and is going to get drafted this year out of South Carolina

 

So he was sitting behind an NFL quarterback as a true freshman that he beat out... And burrow has talent.... And it took him three seasons and a transfer to shine 

 

Caleb had 21 touchdowns and four picks as a true freshman... Insane stats in a power five conference

 

I don't think you could compare their arcs... Burrow as a finished product certainly was supreme... Caleb has been on top everywhere

Certainly isn't perfect

 

But do you know who's open downfield why he's holding the ball so long? Why does Josh hold it so long

 

If he's holding it because nobody's open and he's trying to create it's really not his problem

I don’t think that’s the case.  Guys are open.  I don’t think he’s processing well. Doesn’t trust what he sees. He’s going to get sacked 8 times per game if he does that in the NFL.

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think that's why I message boards are here.. to have good discussions

 

It is? 

 

I thought it was to bicker and argue and hurl ad hominems and fight over who was right.  LOL  

 

Sometimes ya can't tell.  I appreciate the great back-n-forth though!!!   

 

 

Why am I growing more concerned about our game tomorrow.  

 

By all rights this should be a 20+ point blowout.  All of a sudden I'm having an anxiety attack.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

I don’t think that’s the case.  Guys are open.  I don’t think he’s processing well. Doesn’t trust what he sees. He’s going to get sacked 8 times per game if he does that in the NFL.

Certainly my biggest question mark about him

 

But I don't think his weapons are as good as you think they are ... Utah's defense is better than USCs offense 

[mannc]

I think we can agree that this is a good game…

Edited October 22, 2023 by mannc

[PBF81]

The punter trying to get within tackling range ... LOL  

 

 

[mannc]

There’s an example, on the EP…that ball has to come out quickly and it just doesn’t.

[PBF81]

Williams has plenty of opportunity this season to prove himself against top competition.  

 

USC faces three of four ranked conference opponents forthcoming.  

 

Cal sucks, but after that, Washington (currently 5th), @ Oregon (currently 9th), and then UCLA (currently 25th), then a possible conference championship game.  

 

 

 

And FWIW, Barnes, a backup, has significantly outplayed Williams in this game.  Passing and running.  

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by PBF81

[mannc]

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Williams has plenty of opportunity this season to prove himself against top competition.  

 

USC faces three of four ranked conference opponents forthcoming.  

 

Cal sucks, but after that, Washington (currently 5th), @ Oregon (currently 9th), and then UCLA (currently 25th), then a possible conference championship game.  

 

 

 

In the meantime, he was outplayed by Utah’s backup QB

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

In the meantime, he was outplayed by Utah’s backup QB

 

Yup

 

 

The next four games and possible CC are going to heavily impact his draft status, ... IMO.  

 

One thing's for sure, he looks like a prima donna asking for ownership at this stage of things.  

 

GO BILLS!!!!   

 

Let's hope that our offense pulls its head out of its a$$ tomorrow.  

 

 

G' night!!  

 

 

[BananaB]

Wonder if this kid is humbled yet. He never did much in this game to put them in position to win seemed to be everyone else. 

Can’t believe the announcers just said Caleb did everything he could. Lol

[benderbender]

Bryson Barnes is giving off Taylor

Heinicke vibes

[QLBillsFan]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

Wonder if this kid is humbled yet. He never did much in this game to put them in position to win seemed to be everyone else. 

Can’t believe the announcers just said Caleb did everything he could. Lol

Seems like such a me guy.. sitting on bench seemingly with limited interest as the Utah walk on sets his team up for the GW FG. Doesn’t meet the Utah kids to hands ( at least for 5 minutes).. Utah is so well coached and a tough D. 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Wonder if this kid is humbled yet. He never did much in this game to put them in position to win seemed to be everyone else. 

Can’t believe the announcers just said Caleb did everything he could. Lol

Listen I don't think he's the best qb prospect I've ever seen and that's not what I'm campaigning for

 

USC is severely overrated... They are out matched by Utah with a walk-on quarterback

 

Caleb does not have much talent around him compared to other top schools 

[QLBillsFan]

On 10/19/2023 at 4:01 AM, Solomon Grundy said:

Well.... George Kittle wore a F Dallas T-shirt... 😎

Yeah saw that.. not particularly that cool either. Seems hs ish but it’s how things are in sports now. 

[716to540]

Never heard of him 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

It is? 

 

I thought it was to bicker and argue and hurl ad hominems and fight over who was right.  LOL  

 

Sometimes ya can't tell.  I appreciate the great back-n-forth though!!!   

 

 

Why am I growing more concerned about our game tomorrow.  

 

By all rights this should be a 20+ point blowout.  All of a sudden I'm having an anxiety attack.  

 

 

I'll tell you right now it won't be a 20 point blowout...

 

Division games are tough 

 

I'd like to see a 20-point win but I don't see it

53 minutes ago, mannc said:

In the meantime, he was outplayed by Utah’s backup QB

Or Utah has a much better team around their backup quarterback which I've been saying

 

Williams on Utah is a national championship quality team... But Utah can't recruit a quarterback of that pedigree ... Cam rising is a stud but he ain't Williams... Utah is so good top to bottom they can roll with a quarterback who walked on last year and be legit and beat USC 

 

There's only a handful of schools that can get a five-star number one quarterback out of HS... Utah almost out classes USC at every position besides quarterback and it shows

 

Today was what I expected 

 

The better team won 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Clyde Smith]

40 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Bryson Barnes is giving off Taylor

Heinicke vibes

Is that a good thing?

[PBF81]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'll tell you right now it won't be a 20 point blowout...

 

Division games are tough 

 

I'd like to see a 20-point win but I don't see it

 

Well, as pointed out, the average score of the last four games is 35-18 us, and this Pats team is worse than any of those teams.  

 

 

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Or Utah has a much better team around their backup quarterback which I've been saying

 

Williams on Utah is a national championship quality team... But Utah can't recruit a quarterback of that pedigree ... Cam rising is a stud but he ain't Williams... Utah is so good top to bottom they can roll with a quarterback who walked on last year and be legit and beat USC 

 

There's only a handful of schools that can get a five-star number one quarterback out of HS... Utah almost out classes USC at every position besides quarterback and it shows

 

Today was what I expected 

 

The better team won 

 

 

Be that as it may, he hasn't stepped up on any of his biggest games.  It's safe to say that QBs with less talent around them, are playing better than that against comparable teams.

 

The message appears to be, listen to what people say, despite the fact that he simply hasn't stepped up in the couple of big games he's played.  Not even average.  

 

My methodology includes having more/ample proof before drawing conclusions.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

56 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, as pointed out, the average score of the last four games is 35-18 us, and this Pats team is worse than any of those teams.  

 

 

 

Be that as it may, he hasn't stepped up on any of his biggest games.  It's safe to say that QBs with less talent around them, are playing better than that against comparable teams.

 

The message appears to be, listen to what people say, despite the fact that he simply hasn't stepped up in the couple of big games he's played.  Not even average.  

 

My methodology includes having more/ample proof before drawing conclusions.  

 

 

To be fair, you're saying a Heisman trophy winner doesn't step up in big games, when he is usually insanely good... Even against bad matchups

 

USCs backup quarterback if he play today they lose by 20... Williams did put it on the line

 

You don't understand the drop off between Williams and his backup... And how utahs defense is schematically a problem for USC... And Williams had a great game versus it last year

 

He scored 42 points in a loss to Utah last year ... 45 In a loss to tulane... 32 in a loss today 

 

He had 381 yards five touchdowns versus Utah last year ... Lol

 

They're not losing because of him... They have nobody else rallying around him

 

Could you imagine Caleb Williams on Oklahoma right now? With a defense

 

People would be gushing... Williams has the most pressure on any returning college football player I could remember in the last 15 years

 

He certainly isn't perfect... He absolutely isn't a sure thing... But with the way the modern game is going... His tools are amazing... Any great coach should be able to get amazing things out of him

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[mannc]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'll tell you right now it won't be a 20 point blowout...

 

Division games are tough 

 

I'd like to see a 20-point win but I don't see it

Or Utah has a much better team around their backup quarterback which I've been saying

 

Williams on Utah is a national championship quality team... But Utah can't recruit a quarterback of that pedigree ... Cam rising is a stud but he ain't Williams... Utah is so good top to bottom they can roll with a quarterback who walked on last year and be legit and beat USC 

 

There's only a handful of schools that can get a five-star number one quarterback out of HS... Utah almost out classes USC at every position besides quarterback and it shows

 

Today was what I expected 

 

The better team won 

 

And yet Utah got smoked by Oregon State at home. This is the same Utah team that they have every year.  I’d be willing to bet that USC has had much higher rated recruiting classes than Utah the last three years…I’ll grant you that Utah is better coached.