GunnerBill Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 17 hours ago, John from Riverside said: We need to see what the problems are It’s not hands because he catches everything around him It’s not speed because he’s plenty fast He has all the physical attributes Sometimes guys click in the pros that don’t click in college. That’s how you find your gems I just like that it’s not like we have to depend on him get his feet wet in special teams and lead him go from there They do but they trend to be the smaller guys who have been overlooked in college. We did this earlier in the offseason - try to find a height, weight, speed prospect who didn't really produce in college but then clicked in the NFL and we struggled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: I'll give you some data, or at least a good example to back up your point 2014. Eric Wood, playing C between Kraig Urbik and Erik Pears (an acceptable RT but a sucky RG). I think he was rated near the bottom of the league by PFF. He said later, he thought he might even be cut. 2015. Eric Wood, playing C between Ritchie Incognito and John Miller (who Bills fans disliked but is actually capable in the right system - still in the league). Now all of a sudden he's playing great. Pro bowl when it meant a bit more. Rated well by PFF. Yeah, for a C, the play of the guys on either side of him matters a lot. And the need of the guys to work together/difficulty of non-expert footbball observers to decode who had what blocking assignment, is one of the reasons why PFF OL grades are to be taken with the saltiest grain of salt. seriously Thank you for helping me make my point. @Mr. WEO will some how explain to us how this means nothing but Thank You! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: seriously Thank you for helping me make my point. @Mr. WEO will some how explain to us how this means nothing but Thank You! I agreed Guard play will affect the Center. The data you supplied also showed steady decline over 5 years no matter who was at Guard. If you don't like your data, find another source. 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: I'll give you some data, or at least a good example to back up your point 2014. Eric Wood, playing C between Kraig Urbik and Erik Pears (an acceptable RT but a sucky RG). I think he was rated near the bottom of the league by PFF. He said later, he thought he might even be cut. 2015. Eric Wood, playing C between Ritchie Incognito and John Miller (who Bills fans disliked but is actually capable in the right system - still in the league). Now all of a sudden he's playing great. Pro bowl when it meant a bit more. Rated well by PFF. Yeah, for a C, the play of the guys on either side of him matters a lot. And the need of the guys to work together/difficulty of non-expert footbball observers to decode who had what blocking assignment, is one of the reasons why PFF OL grades are to be taken with the saltiest grain of salt. well that would include every poster commenting here--including the ones saying the Guards suck, would it not? I don't know that PFF scorers cannot decode blocking assignments, nor do I know that they are non-football expert observers. Maybe you have the straight dope on them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airseven Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Based on immediate cap savings of $1M+, the cut candidates this summer are Morse, Hines, Neal, Phillips, Epenesa, Gilliam, and Sherfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I agreed Guard play will affect the Center. The data you supplied also showed steady decline over 5 years no matter who was at Guard. If you don't like your data, find another source. well that would include every poster commenting here--including the ones saying the Guards suck, would it not? I don't know that PFF scorers cannot decode blocking assignments, nor do I know that they are non-football expert observers. Maybe you have the straight dope on them? or maybe learn some football on the way instead of having to lean on pff stats? you act like pff stats tell the whole story and it does not. not even half the story. just cue in on pff and ignore the rest of the facts at hand. Edited July 12, 2023 by PrimeTime101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 On 7/10/2023 at 10:39 PM, PrimeTime101 said: Sir i do not have pff any more. i believe his base was in low to mid 60's but you know who his guards were by him and how bad they were.... On 7/10/2023 at 11:18 PM, PrimeTime101 said: The degression of the line had much to do with when Saffold was starting and if you cant agree with me on that, then these numbers do not lie. BASE PFF for Saffold last year? 43.7 overall, 10 penalties (6th in the league) And for people that think Bates was good or even average on the other side? His base pff was 61.8. Obviously better then Saffold but nothing great right? And speaking of OLINE Men on the decline? Bates was 67.5 in 2020 and went down to 61.8 and if that is not enough for you? Dawkins went from a 78.1 in 2020 to a 73.5 in 22. I do not know how else to answer your vague questions then this. 32 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: or maybe learn some football on the way instead of having to lean on pff stats? Are you speaking into a mirror or are other posting under your name? "Lean off the PFF stats"....or.... "these numbers do not lie"? But yes, you should probably lay off the PFF stats, as I have recommended at least twice so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Are you speaking into a mirror or are other posting under your name? "Lean off the PFF stats"....or.... "these numbers do not lie"? But yes, you should probably lay off the PFF stats, as I have recommended at least twice so far. you ASKED for pff info. did you forget? just wow... On 7/11/2023 at 8:40 AM, Mr. WEO said: I was asking if Morse's PFF/performance dropped off last year solely because of the guards, as you claimed. here is your reminder.. On 7/10/2023 at 10:39 PM, PrimeTime101 said: On 7/10/2023 at 7:22 PM, Mr. WEO said: What was Morse's PFF score in 2021? Who were the star G's around him? and another reminder... before all this i NEVER brought up pff. Edited July 12, 2023 by PrimeTime101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: They do but they trend to be the smaller guys who have been overlooked in college. We did this earlier in the offseason - try to find a height, weight, speed prospect who didn't really produce in college but then clicked in the NFL and we struggled. Gunner I'm trying to parse this and figure out who you're talking about, but No Joy. Can you say more and help me out? 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: I don't know that PFF scorers cannot decode blocking assignments, nor do I know that they are non-football expert observers. Maybe you have the straight dope on them? What I know is from actual NFL guards talking about PFF grades vs. how the coachs grade them. One was Eric Wood, during a publicly available interview - I had a quick search and can't find it, might be too old. Not going to cite the other, but he is a retired NFL player of distinction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 24 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Gunner I'm trying to parse this and figure out who you're talking about, but No Joy. Can you say more and help me out? What I know is from actual NFL guards talking about PFF grades vs. how the coachs grade them. One was Eric Wood, during a publicly available interview - I had a quick search and can't find it, might be too old. Not going to cite the other, but he is a retired NFL player of distinction. Thanks. Since only coaches know how they grade their own players, we are left with what else there is. Are the PFF guys not football knowledgable at all? I didn't get that impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 36 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Thanks. Since only coaches know how they grade their own players, we are left with what else there is. Are the PFF guys not football knowledgable at all? I didn't get that impression. they are but there are things they can not grade on, things that have situational awareness. They are getting stand alone grades nothing to do with what is happening around them or how their teammate is messing them up by not going to the right guy, not helping with 1 tech and so on. You can look at the facts that guard play can absolutely screw up Center play and you can look at how bad the guards were around him. Now. If he had guards around him that equaled Morse quality and Morse numbers still went down? Then with full absolute we can blame the center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 hours ago, GunnerBill said: They do but they trend to be the smaller guys who have been overlooked in college. We did this earlier in the offseason - try to find a height, weight, speed prospect who didn't really produce in college but then clicked in the NFL and we struggled. That's a really good point. I guess you either have it or you don't when you're a highly recruited WR prospect. Does DK Metcalf count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Doc Brown said: That's a really good point. I guess you either have it or you don't when you're a highly recruited WR prospect. Does DK Metcalf count? Yea someone suggested him. He has definitely outproduced his college performance in the pros though injury played a part in that subpar college production. Marcus Colston was the other suggestion I remember. He never had a 1,000 yard season in college but was a small school guy and one presumes the QB play he had wasn't the best. It is tough though to find those talented big guys who were a bit underwhelming in college then broke out in the pros. Lots more misses than hits in that profile. Not me saying Shorter has no chance. But he is a long shot. Edited July 13, 2023 by GunnerBill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 12 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: they are but there are things they can not grade on, things that have situational awareness. They are getting stand alone grades nothing to do with what is happening around them or how their teammate is messing them up by not going to the right guy, not helping with 1 tech and so on. You can look at the facts that guard play can absolutely screw up Center play and you can look at how bad the guards were around him. Now. If he had guards around him that equaled Morse quality and Morse numbers still went down? Then with full absolute we can blame the center. How do you know they do not do this when grading a player? And what is your method for breaking down the Guard play? All 22? Something else? How is it different from theirs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 14 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: and another reminder... before all this i NEVER brought up pff. "NEVER brought up pff"?? You LED with PFF! here's a "reminer": On 7/10/2023 at 11:04 AM, PrimeTime101 said: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/4-cut-candidates-on-bills-roster-ahead-of-nfl-training-camp/ar-AA1dE08J?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=711a4dba575746aa98de8c5f655de11a&ei=13 Mitch Morse According to PFF’s metrics, Morse was the 24th-ranked center in the league and gave up three sacks during the 2022 season Did PrimeTime102 hack your account? I can't take you seriously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: "NEVER brought up pff"?? You LED with PFF! here's a "reminer": Did PrimeTime102 hack your account? I can't take you seriously. that was in the article silly. I was quoting the article. I myself never brought it up. did you actually read it or just what i wrote? Edited July 13, 2023 by PrimeTime101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 35 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: that was in the article silly. I was quoting the article. I myself never brought it up. did you actually read it or just what i wrote? just what you actually wrote in the first paragraph of the thread you started and have included (PFF scores) in every response since. Crazy how those scores snuck into your posts when you never even brought them up!! oh, hold on... "What the article does not explain is the trash guards Morse has had around him that does severly effect "pff metrics". I'm not a cruel man, so I'll exit here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted July 13, 2023 Author Share Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: just what you actually wrote in the first paragraph of the thread you started and have included (PFF scores) in every response since. Crazy how those scores snuck into your posts when you never even brought them up!! oh, hold on... "What the article does not explain is the trash guards Morse has had around him that does severly effect "pff metrics". I'm not a cruel man, so I'll exit here... Weo. It was still a good conversation to have man. We good. lol. This among many other things is Why this article is being trashed on everywhere. I am always a sucker for a good convo. heated or otherwise. We have 2 perspectives. 2 opinions. Does not mean either of us are right... or wrong. Respect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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