Do you take a corner in the first?

[whorlnut]

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So would I. No to McDuffie over a receiver. 

What do you mean by this?  You would take McDuffie over the receiver?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

What do you mean by this?  You would take McDuffie over the receiver?

 

No. The opposite. The only corners I'd take over a receiver are Booth or Sauce. Sauce will definitely be gone. I still think Booth will be too. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, whorlnut said:

What do you mean by this?  You would take McDuffie over the receiver?

Fella, he's saying "No to taking McDuffie over a receiver." Gunner is not one of the folks who is pushing cb position over wr. He's got a very high rating for Booth. He also likes a lot of receivers. I believe he mocked Williams to the Bills.

[whorlnut]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. The opposite. The only corners I'd take over a receiver are Booth or Sauce. Sauce will definitely be gone. I still think Booth will be too. 

Ok…I agree with this. What are your thoughts on McDuffie and mccreary?  
 

Do you think it’s possible that we might wait till rounds 3 or 4 for guys like Josh Williams, Zion McCollum, Martin Emerson, etc?

 

Beane has shown a lot of faith in Mcd’s ability to develop corners and I can see that faith continue with a mid round pick that allows them to look at other positions with their top couple picks. 

8 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Fella, he's saying "No to taking McDuffie over a receiver." Gunner is not one of the folks who is pushing cb position over wr. He's got a very high rating for Booth. He also likes a lot of receivers. I believe he mocked Williams to the Bills.

Ok…he just answered my question…thanks for chiming in…

[Dr. Who]

Just now, whorlnut said:

Ok…I agree with this. What are your thoughts on McDuffie and mccreary?  
 

Do you think it’s possible that we might wait till rounds 3 or 4 for guys like Josh Williams, Zion McCollum, Martin Emerson, etc?

 

Beane has shown a lot of faith in Mcd’s ability to develop corners and I can see that faith continue with a mid round pick that allows them to look at other positions with their top couple picks. 

Ok…he just answered my question…thanks for chiming in…

We posted at the same time. If I had seen the answer posted, I would not have "chimed in."

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

Ok…I agree with this. What are your thoughts on McDuffie and mccreary?  
 

Do you think it’s possible that we might wait till rounds 3 or 4 for guys like Josh Williams, Zion McCollum, Martin Emerson, etc?

 

Beane has shown a lot of faith in Mcd’s ability to develop corners and I can see that faith continue with a mid round pick that allows them to look at other positions with their top couple picks. 

Ok…he just answered my question…thanks for chiming in…

 

I think both McDuffie and McCreary are good players, I have both as high 2nd round grades, don't love either as Bills fits. McCreary definitely isn't for me. He needs to play in a man heavy scheme to get the best out of him and he has very short arms. McDuffie can play in zone but he also has sub 30" arms which I think would be a red flag for the Bills. Even the guys they have drafted late - Dane Jackson, Taron Johnson, Levi Wallace (as an UDFA) have longer than 30" arms. It matters in their scheme because the longer the DBs arms the greater the distance within the zone they are legitimately able to cover. 

 

It is possible that the Bills wait until the mid rounds for a corner. I think if they don't go corner in round one that is what they should do because I think round two is a bit of a dead spot for corners. You could have as many as 7 go in the top 35/40 picks.... but then other than Martin Emerson, who I do have a late second on, I have a bit of a vacuum until you get into the round 3 grades. 

 

In version 1 of my mock I had them going Jameson Williams in round 1 and then in my two round version 2.0 I had the Bills going Chris Olave in round 1 and Darian Kinnard (as a guard) in round 2. I took flack there for no corner in the first two rounds but I do think it is possible. That said, if they pass on a corner in the first two rounds it won't be "to allow them to look at other positions." It will be because they don't think the talent matches the value. That is what happened at corner last year when Beane has since admitted he wanted to draft one, but they never got into a position where the value worked out. This is a deeper corner group than last year's which after the first 4 guys hollowed out very quickly. This class has 3 outstanding guys up top, then 4 very good but slightly more scheme specific guys and then after a lull in the second round a good crop of developmental mid-round guys. I'd add Tariq Woolen and Alontae Taylor and Coby Bryant to the names you mentioned. 

 

The Bills are not going to force a cornerback selection at #25. But equally they are not going to force a receiver there either. I think it is likely going to be a guy at one of those two spots and it will depend on who is on the board and how they have them graded. If the best player on their board at #25 is a corner they are going to pick him. If that is McDuffie I will be underwhelmed, personally I doubt he will be the guy for them though. 

 

[whorlnut]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think both McDuffie and McCreary are good players, I have both as high 2nd round grades, don't love either as Bills fits. McCreary definitely isn't for me. He needs to play in a man heavy scheme to get the best out of him and he has very short arms. McDuffie can play in zone but he also has sub 30" arms which I think would be a red flag for the Bills. Even the guys they have drafted late - Dane Jackson, Taron Johnson, Levi Wallace (as an UDFA) have longer than 30" arms. It matters in their scheme because the longer the DBs arms the greater the distance within the zone they are legitimately able to cover. 

 

It is possible that the Bills wait until the mid rounds for a corner. I think if they don't go corner in round one that is what they should do because I think round two is a bit of a dead spot for corners. You could have as many as 7 go in the top 35/40 picks.... but then other than Martin Emerson, who I do have a late second on, I have a bit of a vacuum until you get into the round 3 grades. 

 

In version 1 of my mock I had them going Jameson Williams in round 1 and then in my two round version 2.0 I had the Bills going Chris Olave in round 1 and Darian Kinnard (as a guard) in round 2. I took flack there for no corner in the first two rounds but I do think it is possible. That said, if they pass on a corner in the first two rounds it won't be "to allow them to look at other positions." It will be because they don't think the talent matches the value. That is what happened at corner last year when Beane has since admitted he wanted to draft one, but they never got into a position where the value worked out. This is a deeper corner group than last year's which after the first 4 guys hollowed out very quickly. This class has 3 outstanding guys up top, then 4 very good but slightly more scheme specific guys and then after a lull in the second round a good crop of developmental mid-round guys. I'd add Tariq Woolen and Alontae Taylor and Coby Bryant to the names you mentioned. 

 

The Bills are not going to force a cornerback selection at #25. But equally they are not going to force a receiver there either. I think it is likely going to be a guy at one of those two spots and it will depend on who is on the board and how they have them graded. If the best player on their board at #25 is a corner they are going to pick him. If that is McDuffie I will be underwhelmed, personally I doubt he will be the guy for them though. 

 

Good write up. 
 

It’s interesting you single out McCreary and McDuffie as not being fits. I watched a podcast on YouTube last night where Greg Cosell names them as really good fits for the Bills. I will say…I agree with you that they don’t fit what the bills look for. The bills like guys with elite traits and I’m sure they view their sub-30” arms as slight red flags. They don’t scream outside corner to me. I’m Mccreary’s case, his arms are absurdly short for a corner…sub-29”. 
 

I really think value might match up in the 3rd or 4th for us. Almost anyone with any knowledge knows that McD and his staff is the best in the game at developing corners. A 3rd or 4th round guy like the ones we mentioned could end up being a stud in a year or two. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

The bills like guys with elite traits and I’m sure they view their sub-30” arms as slight red flags.

 

Under McDermott we have never had a CB on the field with sub 30" arms. Even all of the bottom of the roster/practice squad players - Wildgoose, Griffin, McCloud - had >31" arms. I think Cam Lewis has been the shortest at 30.5". We have enough of a sample size to know that >30" arms is a minimum requirement for CBs in our scheme, and >31" is what they're really looking for. We don't bother rostering them or even putting them on the PS if they don't meet that minimum.

 

Similarly I don't think elite athleticism is what they look for. I've seen a lot of people on here point to Tariq Woolen as a Bills target because we generally like the high RAS score guys. But CB is maybe the one position where that doesn't matter to McDermott. The traits he cares about are length, route matching, and instincts. I watched a few Tariq Woolen videos where on deep passes he is wildly flailing his arms around hoping he gets a hand on the ball. No way McDermott wants that awful technique in his scheme.

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by HappyDays

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Under McDermott we have never had a CB on the field with sub 30" arms. Even all of the bottom of the roster/practice squad players - Wildgoose, Griffin, McCloud - had >31" arms. I think Cam Lewis has been the shortest at 30.5". We have enough of a sample size to know that >30" arms is a minimum requirement for CBs in our scheme, and >31" is what they're really looking for. We don't bother rostering them or even putting them on the PS if they don't meet that minimum.

 

Similarly I don't think elite athleticism is what they look for. I've seen a lot of people on here point to Tariq Woolen as a Bills target because we generally like the high RAS score guys. But CB is maybe the one position where that doesn't matter to McDermott. The traits he cares about are length, route matching, and instincts. I watched a few Tariq Woolen videos where on deep passes he is wildly flailing his arms around hoping he gets a hand on the ball. No way McDermott wants that awful technique in his scheme.

 

Great points. Well done. I honestly can’t see McCreary in any scenario. His arms aren’t just short, they are REALLY short. I could see McDuffie only because of his scheme fit, but the arm length might have him off their board. 
 

I agree with Booth probably being the one that would make them consider using the 25th pick on a corner. I don’t want a corner at that spot, but he check almost all the boxes for what the Bills want. I think any other corner would be a slight reach and I don’t expect them to reach on a position that we have great success at developing. 
 

Josh Williams and Martin Emerson are REALLY interesting. They are the ones I would keep an eye on if we wait. 

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Ok…I agree with this. What are your thoughts on McDuffie and mccreary?  
 

Do you think it’s possible that we might wait till rounds 3 or 4 for guys like Josh Williams, Zion McCollum, Martin Emerson, etc?

 

Beane has shown a lot of faith in Mcd’s ability to develop corners and I can see that faith continue with a mid round pick that allows them to look at other positions with their top couple picks. 

Ok…he just answered my question…thanks for chiming in…

Just curious as to why you say Beane has a lot of faith that Coach McD can develop corners? Seems like an odd statement that's an opinion. What evidence is there to support such a claim? 

[whorlnut]

8 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Just curious as to why you say Beane has a lot of faith that Coach McD can develop corners? Seems like an odd statement that's an opinion. What evidence is there to support such a claim? 

I think there is an over abundance of evidence. The fact that he’s only ever drafted a corner before round 5 once. McD is the best in the league at developing corners. This started back in Carolina when he took a fifth rounder named Josh Norman and made him into arguably the best corner in the league while he was there.  

[newcam2012]

44 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I think there is an over abundance of evidence. The fact that he’s only ever drafted a corner before round 5 once. McD is the best in the league at developing corners. This started back in Carolina when he took a fifth rounder named Josh Norman and made him into arguably the best corner in the league while he was there.  

I think Coach McD is a fine coach. I just don't see him as a "CB guru developer." I think that's your interpretation. Norman certainly was a surprise. How much credit goes to McD? Who knows?

Edited April 10, 2022 by newcam2012

[whorlnut]

6 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think Coach McD is a fine coach. I just don't see him as a "CB guru developer." I think that's your interpretation. Norman certainly was a surprise. How much credit goes to McD? Who knows? 9

 

Your are wrong about the Bills drafting CB only once in the first 5 round. Without any research, I know that Gilmore and Tre White were 1st round draft choices. Some can argue that Gilmore never lived up to his first round hype. 

I was talking about Beane. And it’s a fact he’s only ever once drafted a corner before round 5. That would be taron Johnson. 
 

I think there is more than enough evidence that McD and his staff can coach up DB’s better than most, if not the best. Just about everyone that talks about the bills in the media recognizes that. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by whorlnut

[newcam2012]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

I was talking about Beane. And it’s a fact he’s only ever once drafted a corner before round 5. That would be taron Johnson. 

However, one would have to go back and analyze every draft. Were CBs the BPA on the Bills board? Was it a team need at the time? So many variables in place. 

 

It's a pretty big leap of faith saying they haven't drafted a CB within the 1st five rounds because Beane has faith in Coach McD to develop them. In General, I would assume Beane has faith in McD to develop all players at all positions. 

 

Based on your thesis. Is Coach McD a great QB developer now because of Allen's success? 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Great points. Well done. I honestly can’t see McCreary in any scenario. His arms aren’t just short, they are REALLY short. I could see McDuffie only because of his scheme fit, but the arm length might have him off their board. 
 

I agree with Booth probably being the one that would make them consider using the 25th pick on a corner. I don’t want a corner at that spot, but he check almost all the boxes for what the Bills want. I think any other corner would be a slight reach and I don’t expect them to reach on a position that we have great success at developing. 
 

Josh Williams and Martin Emerson are REALLY interesting. They are the ones I would keep an eye on if we wait. 

 

 

At the combine........the on-field drills Williams vs. Woolens was no contest.    Williams had natural CB movement.........Woolen did not.

 

That's not to say that good coaching couldn't significantly change that but after he blazed that 40.........Woolens looked very unnatural.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I was talking about Beane. And it’s a fact he’s only ever once drafted a corner before round 5. That would be taron Johnson. 

 

Yeah but what about Leodis McKelvin and Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield and Jeff Burris and Thomas Smith and JD Williams and Derrick Burroughs...........McDermott is SO "draft a CB in round 1". 

[whorlnut]

7 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

However, one would have to go back and analyze every draft. Were CBs the BPA on the Bills board? Was it a team need at the time? So many variables in place. 

 

It's a pretty big leap of faith saying they haven't drafted a CB within the 1st five rounds because Beane has faith in Coach McD to develop them. In General, I would assume Beane has faith in McD to develop all players at all positions. 

 

Based on your thesis. Is Coach McD a great QB developer now because of Allen's success? 

 

 

I’m not even going to argue with you about this. I’m just not. It’s not worth my time.
 

Just about everyone knows that McD is great in developing DB’s. He’s a defensive coach and his background is DB’s. In fact, he was DB himself. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, whorlnut said:

I’m not even going to argue with you about this. I’m just not. It’s not worth my time.
 

Just about everyone knows that McD is great in developing DB’s. He’s a defensive coach and his background is DB’s. In fact, he was DB himself. 

 

I agree about McDermott being a great developer of defensive backs. But I don't think that is why they haven't drafted them early. Beane admitted he wanted a corner last year the draft just didn't fall for them. 

[whorlnut]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree about McDermott being a great developer of defensive backs. But I don't think that is why they haven't drafted them early. Beane admitted he wanted a corner last year the draft just didn't fall for them. 

I think that works in their favor though. They might not see it as urgent as other teams might. 
 

Do you agree with the statement that McD and his staff is pretty much the best In the league at developing DB’s?  Heck, take Hyde and poyer as additional examples. Neither were anywhere near what they are today before McD coached them up. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by whorlnut

[newcam2012]

10 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I’m not even going to argue with you about this. I’m just not. It’s not worth my time.
 

Just about everyone knows that McD is great in developing DB’s. He’s a defensive coach and his background is DB’s. In fact, he was DB himself. 

One last jab if I may. Coach MCD was so great that his secondary couldn't stop the Chiefs in 13 seconds nor in the overtime. Or was that Fraizer's fault?