America no longer exists

[oldmanfan]

This will probably get lengthy, so my apologies up front.  But the events of this past week, coupled with the events surrounding Covid and a host of other issues, have led to me to a stunning and difficult conclusion:

 

America no longer exists

 

I love my country, as do many on this board.  But the America I love is gone.  It has been replaced by a spineless, weakened shell of a nation, a nation that no longer stands as a beacon of liberty in the world, a nation that has abdicated its role as a superpower, a nation that used to stand together in times of struggle but now does its utmost to tear itself apart.

 

The proximate cause of my statement was the announcement of the Secretary of Defense yesterday that our military cannot guarantee the safe passage of our own citizens to be evacuated.  The finest fighting force that has ever been assembled in the world, and we cannot summon the courage and strength to remove our own citizens from a battle field.  There are so many in our country that express jingoistic patriotism, that claim they stand for the military because they express out rage when an athlete decides to kneel during an anthem and such.  But when push comes to shove, and we are challenged with a crisis such as we see today in Afghanistan, where did these people go?  Oh no, we can't go in, it would be a blood bath, and so on. Now, this is the proximate cause, but to be honest our gutlessness as a nation began in 2001.  Bush and Cheney went into the country they shouldn't have, and left the country that should have been destroyed (Afghanistan) intact.  Obama drew his supposed red line in Syria, and when it was crossed shrank away like a coward.  Trump Claimed he could negotiate with the Taliban and North Korea, while they sat and laughed at our ineptitude as did Russia.  And now here we are.  Instead of acknowledging our role as the world's superpower, instead of using our military might, the combined efforts of 4 administrations at least (and Clinton was no joy either) has left us in the eyes of the world as a paper tiger.  Oh sure, we let out a mighty roar, but we do nothing.  Make no mistake, our enemies laugh at us today, and our allies know we can no longer be counted on.  We might as well disband our fighting forces because the world knows we won't use them anymore.

 

American used to stand for good in the world, we used to stand against tyranny, against evil. We fought world wars for these beliefs.   But we don't anymore.   We can use diplomacy all we want, and we should exhaust diplomacy before using force, but we have fallen into this mistaken notion that you can use rational thought processes like diplomacy with irrational actors.  You don't negotiate with the Taliban.  You don't negotiate with Kim Jong Un.  You destroy them.  You destroy them before they destroy you.  But we have abdicated our role as a power, and we can never get it back now.

 

One of the reasons we have reached this point, of course, is because the people of this country no longer understand what America is supposed to be.  America is an ideal.  we started as a nation of disbanded citizens, spread across the 13 colonies with different political and other beliefs,  But we were held together by concepts outlined in the two most important documents ever written, the Declaration and the Constitution.  The country born under those remarkable documents grew into the finest country in the world, guided by those principals.   We have led in so many areas.  We were the leader in science and medicine, in brining economic growth to the world, leaders in innovation of so many kinds.  and we did so because, despite our differences, despite our arguments, the American people understood we were in it together.  We understood that in time of trouble, in times of crisis, what brought us together as a people was far more than what separated us.   

 

But no more.   The response to a global pandemic in this country has shown that, as a people, we no longer can be counted on to put America first, to put our fellow man first above our own petty and self-absorbed interests.  We literally would rather watch our fellow men, women and children die instead of banding together to help.  We would rather adhere to some bizarre political fantasies than help the guy next to us.  I am so goddam tired of reading about how masks are unconstitutional.  The same people who claim you have to be originalists with respect to gun rights somehow think the Constitution mentions masks.  People have willfully ignored actual scientific facts, they have ignored science and medicine, to believe in crackpot fantasies dreamed up on some Facebook page.  And yesterday is yet another example of why the America I know is gone; governors of states who because of cheap political views are saying that, rather than have people wear masks, their citizens should get sick and then take treatments that costs thousands of dollars to hopefully cure them because they view it as a better political move.

 

When the political leaders in the country would rather have you get sick than not in order to garner another vote, and we simply sit back and accept that, we are no longer America.  When our politics are that warped, that repulsive, we can no longer effectively govern this country. 

 

I want the America back that I know and love.  I want the America back of my youth, the America that was strong, that stood for good.  The America where its citizens disagreed and debated, sometimes vigorously and violently, but inn the end knew we were all on the same side.  I was a teenager during the Vietnam years, I drove by UB when it was burning, I watched the assassinations of King and Bobby K,.  Those were dark days, the darkest in my life time other than 9/11 and the present day.  But what I also remember was that night in July 1969 when our entire country, regardless of politics and such, watched as one as a brave astronaut named Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon.  We were all Americans that knight, and we were all proud.

 

Some will no doubt read this and say I am being idealistic.  To that I say, why not?  Why not hold up the ideals of this country?  Instead, the people of this country don't care about the ideals anymore.   They only care about themselves.  And that selfish instinct, and how it has affected our daily lives, our government, and our standing in the world, has led to an inevitable consequence.

 

America is gone.  We have let it slip away.  The only question now is whether we can ever get it back.  

Edited August 19, 2021 by oldmanfan

[The Frankish Reich]

Oldmanfan, thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

People come at this from different angles, but there is clearly something going on here. Ross Douthat is the house conservative at the NY Times, which means he's kind of an old school conservative who wants to "conserve" what's good about American tradition and society. He calls what we have now The Decadent Society.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/28/21137971/the-decadent-society-ross-douthat-book

 

He hits on some of the same themes. Where is the shared sense of purpose in America today? Do we stand, collectively, for anything more than our own self-interest or the interests of people who fit within our demographic? Are we a society in decline?

 

I'm a bit younger than you, and a bit more optimistic. (Maybe that optimism will decline with even more age?) But I do agree that there's something troubling about the state of the great American project. Maybe it's the notion of there even being such a thing that's sadly gone.

[SCBills]

Fwiw, many would feel America no longer exists when a coronavirus vaccine is mandated by local/federal governments, either directly or indirectly, on citizens to simply participate in society.  
 

As far as our decline… it’s obvious.  I’m in my 30’s, but I can tell that our younger generations - mine included - have no idea about the outside world.  Hence, such a hyper focus on petty identity issues that only a decadent society (as posted above) can have the luxury of worrying about.  

We’re not a serious country anymore. 
 

Edited August 19, 2021 by SCBills

[OrangeBills]

My personal opinion is that this is just what happens when life is pacified too far...societies forget what got them there, etc

 

What will probably reverse this "I have everything I need & want at the simple tip of my fingers" will be three well-placed EMPs over the Continental US

[Tiberius]

God Blass America! So F###### love this country! Greatest country on earth! Death to her opponents! 

[The Frankish Reich]

41 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Fwiw, many would feel America no longer exists when a coronavirus vaccine is mandated by local/federal governments, either directly or indirectly, on citizens to simply participate in society.  
 

As far as our decline… it’s obvious.  I’m in my 30’s, but I can tell that our younger generations - mine included - have no idea about the outside world.  Hence, such a hyper focus on petty identity issues that only a decadent society (as posted above) can have the luxury of worrying about.  

We’re not a serious country anymore. 
 

I don't really know oldmanfan's politics, but I think maybe statements like this one prove his point.

 

Polio is caused by one of three types of poliovirus (which are members of the Enterovirus genus). These viruses spread through contact between people, by nasal and oral secretions, and by contact with contaminated feces. Poliovirus enters the body through the mouth, multiplying along the way to the digestive tract, where it further multiplies. In about 98% of cases, polio is a mild illness, with no symptoms or with viral-like symptoms. In paralytic polio, the virus leaves the digestive tract, enters the bloodstream, and then attacks nerve cells. Fewer than 1%-2% of people who contract polio become paralyzed.

 

In 1955 Americans lined up for the polio vaccine. People trusted their government. We didn't have nonscientist/unscientific internet "experts" opining on everything. Americans celebrated scientific discovery and ingenuity that promised to deliver them from constant fear that their children would wind up walking with leg braces or, worse yet, be confined to an iron lung. And they saw the importance of getting the vaccine even if they, personally, were at minimal risk from the disease itself.

 

If polio hit today, we wouldn't see Americans band together to say "it's my civic duty to get the vaccine even though I'm at very low risk of getting the disease; I'm doing this so kids everywhere don't have to live in fear every time they go swimming in a lake." No. They'd say: (1) I don't swim in lakes; (2) I don't have kids; (3) if I somehow manage to get it, there's a 98% chance it'll be like getting a mild case of the flu; (4) even if I do have worse symptoms, I'm more likely to die in a car crash than to be paralyzed." Me first.

 

But the polio vaccine had overwhelming public acceptance, while stubborn pockets of vaccine hesitancy persist across the U.S. for the COVID-19 vaccine. Why the difference? One reason, historians say, is that in 1955, many Americans had an especially deep respect for science.

"If you had to pick a moment as the high point of respect for scientific discovery, it would have been then," says David M. Oshinsky, a medical historian at New York University and the author of Polio: An American Story. "After World War II, you had antibiotics rolling off the production line for the first time. People believed infectious disease was [being] conquered. And then this amazing vaccine is announced. People couldn't get it fast enough."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/03/988756973/cant-help-falling-in-love-with-a-vaccine-how-polio-campaign-beat-vaccine-hesitan

Edited August 19, 2021 by The Frankish Reich

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I don't really know oldmanfan's politics, but I think maybe statements like this one prove his point.

 

Polio is caused by one of three types of poliovirus (which are members of the Enterovirus genus). These viruses spread through contact between people, by nasal and oral secretions, and by contact with contaminated feces. Poliovirus enters the body through the mouth, multiplying along the way to the digestive tract, where it further multiplies. In about 98% of cases, polio is a mild illness, with no symptoms or with viral-like symptoms. In paralytic polio, the virus leaves the digestive tract, enters the bloodstream, and then attacks nerve cells. Fewer than 1%-2% of people who contract polio become paralyzed.

 

In 1955 Americans lined up for the polio vaccine. People trusted their government. We didn't have nonscientist/unscientific internet "experts" opining on everything. Americans celebrated scientific discovery and ingenuity that promised to deliver them from constant fear that their children would wind up walking with leg braces or, worse yet, be confined to an iron lung. And they saw the importance of getting the vaccine even if they, personally, were at minimal risk from the disease itself.

 

But the polio vaccine had overwhelming public acceptance, while stubborn pockets of vaccine hesitancy persist across the U.S. for the COVID-19 vaccine. Why the difference? One reason, historians say, is that in 1955, many Americans had an especially deep respect for science.

"If you had to pick a moment as the high point of respect for scientific discovery, it would have been then," says David M. Oshinsky, a medical historian at New York University and the author of Polio: An American Story. "After World War II, you had antibiotics rolling off the production line for the first time. People believed infectious disease was [being] conquered. And then this amazing vaccine is announced. People couldn't get it fast enough."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/03/988756973/cant-help-falling-in-love-with-a-vaccine-how-polio-campaign-beat-vaccine-hesitan

I am fiercely independent, and the article you cited about polio captures my emotions perfectly.  America is dead because people who claim to be American have no idea what that means.  They have no concept of country, of shared sacrifice, of anything other than me, me, me. 

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I am fiercely independent, and the article you cited about polio captures my emotions perfectly.  America is dead because people who claim to be American have no idea what that means.  They have no concept of country, of shared sacrifice, of anything other than me, me, me. 

I just edited my last comment before you posted this. And the way I put it is similar: it's "me first."

[SCBills]

31 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I don't really know oldmanfan's politics, but I think maybe statements like this one prove his point.

 

Polio is caused by one of three types of poliovirus (which are members of the Enterovirus genus). These viruses spread through contact between people, by nasal and oral secretions, and by contact with contaminated feces. Poliovirus enters the body through the mouth, multiplying along the way to the digestive tract, where it further multiplies. In about 98% of cases, polio is a mild illness, with no symptoms or with viral-like symptoms. In paralytic polio, the virus leaves the digestive tract, enters the bloodstream, and then attacks nerve cells. Fewer than 1%-2% of people who contract polio become paralyzed.

 

In 1955 Americans lined up for the polio vaccine. People trusted their government. We didn't have nonscientist/unscientific internet "experts" opining on everything. Americans celebrated scientific discovery and ingenuity that promised to deliver them from constant fear that their children would wind up walking with leg braces or, worse yet, be confined to an iron lung. And they saw the importance of getting the vaccine even if they, personally, were at minimal risk from the disease itself.

 

If polio hit today, we wouldn't see Americans band together to say "it's my civic duty to get the vaccine even though I'm at very low risk of getting the disease; I'm doing this so kids everywhere don't have to live in fear every time they go swimming in a lake." No. They'd say: (1) I don't swim in lakes; (2) I don't have kids; (3) if I somehow manage to get it, there's a 98% chance it'll be like getting a mild case of the flu; (4) even if I do have worse symptoms, I'm more likely to die in a car crash than to be paralyzed." Me first.

 

But the polio vaccine had overwhelming public acceptance, while stubborn pockets of vaccine hesitancy persist across the U.S. for the COVID-19 vaccine. Why the difference? One reason, historians say, is that in 1955, many Americans had an especially deep respect for science.

"If you had to pick a moment as the high point of respect for scientific discovery, it would have been then," says David M. Oshinsky, a medical historian at New York University and the author of Polio: An American Story. "After World War II, you had antibiotics rolling off the production line for the first time. People believed infectious disease was [being] conquered. And then this amazing vaccine is announced. People couldn't get it fast enough."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/03/988756973/cant-help-falling-in-love-with-a-vaccine-how-polio-campaign-beat-vaccine-hesitan

Covid is not Polio.  
 

These comparisons are nonsense. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Covid is not Polio.  
 

These comparisons are nonsense. 

From what perspective?  From a viral perspective, they are different viruses.  But from how it shows the depths to which America has sank, it is a perfect comparison.

 

The America of the 50's cared about things.  They cared about their children, they put their children's well being above politics.  There are literally politicians and just regular folk, some on this very board, who would rather see children die if it means they can cling to their political stance.  Think about that - there are folks who would be OK watching their own child die if it means their political side claim claim some sort of bizarre victory.  

 

People believed in science back then too.  They understood that back then, as well as now, people spent years in the education and training to become doctors and scientists because they felt called to eradicate disease.  People understood back then that science is a process, and that when presented with data and facts you alter your approach to treatments as more data was obtained.  Now, people think everyone who is trying to defeat Covid has some sort of sinister ulterior motive.  People get on Facebook and plant crap like there are chips in the vaccines trying to control you.  And they use that, again, as a way to try and kill more people to buttress a political philosophy.

 

People used to care about each other back then, especially cared about the kids. They used to care about the truth, about their country.   Not anymore.  They only care about themselves.  And before I get the "if you don't like it, leave crap",  I'll say this.  I'm not the one who hates this country.  Maybe not you SCBills, but the people who do the crap that I talked about here.  They hate this country, they hate what it stands for, and they should be the ones who get the hell out.

 

 

 

 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

From what perspective?  From a viral perspective, they are different viruses.  But from how it shows the depths to which America has sank, it is a perfect comparison.

 

The America of the 50's cared about things.  They cared about their children, they put their children's well being above politics.  There are literally politicians and just regular folk, some on this very board, who would rather see children die if it means they can cling to their political stance.  Think about that - there are folks who would be OK watching their own child die if it means their political side claim claim some sort of bizarre victory.  

 

People believed in science back then too.  They understood that back then, as well as now, people spent years in the education and training to become doctors and scientists because they felt called to eradicate disease.  People understood back then that science is a process, and that when presented with data and facts you alter your approach to treatments as more data was obtained.  Now, people think everyone who is trying to defeat Covid has some sort of sinister ulterior motive.  People get on Facebook and plant crap like there are chips in the vaccines trying to control you.  And they use that, again, as a way to try and kill more people to buttress a political philosophy.

 

People used to care about each other back then, especially cared about the kids. They used to care about the truth, about their country.   Not anymore.  They only care about themselves.  And before I get the "if you don't like it, leave crap",  I'll say this.  I'm not the one who hates this country.  Maybe not you SCBills, but the people who do the crap that I talked about here.  They hate this country, they hate what it stands for, and they should be the ones who get the hell out.

 

 

 

 

Should we band together and mandate flu vaccines every year?  People die, a lot of people die, every year from the flu.  
 

Should we mask kids every year in an attempt to slow the spread of RSV?   A virus far more deadly for children than Covid. 
 

You want to know why we don’t trust science?  It’s not that we don’t trust science.. we don’t trust the propped up scientists.  
 

Your definition of caring is different than mine.  
 

You advocate for masking children, and I think that is absolutely abhorrent behavior from adults to force our children to go through this.   Children, relatively speaking, aren’t at risk for this virus.  They are simply being used by scared adults to placate their own fear of a coronavirus they can get vaccinated against.  It’s absolutely sickening to watch children be used like this.  
 

You advocate for mandating vaccines to participate society, and I view that as the largest infringement upon us as citizens in my lifetime.   I also view it as the logical next step to social credit/economic systems as seen in China.  Don’t believe me, the IMF came out and said it.  
 

We both believe our country is in decline.   However there is a difference.  I view it from a Libertarian POV and you, from an Authoritarian POV.  
 

Edited August 19, 2021 by SCBills

[wnyguy]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

 

The America of the 50's cared about things.  They cared about their children, they put their children's well being above politics.  There are literally politicians and just regular folk, some on this very board, who would rather see children die if it means they can cling to their political stance.  Think about that - there are folks who would be OK watching their own child die if it means their political side claim claim some sort of bizarre victory.  

 

 

 

This is an outrageous statement. I understand your frustrations but to make this claim is absurd.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Should we band together and mandate flu vaccines every year?  People die, a lot of people die, every year from the flu.  
 

Should we mask kids every year in an attempt to slow the spread of RSV?   A virus far more deadly for children than Covid. 
 

You want to know why we don’t trust science?  It’s not that we don’t trust science.. we don’t trust the propped up scientists.  
 

Your definition of caring is different than mine.  
 

You advocate for masking children, and I think that is absolutely abhorrent behavior from adults to force our children to go through this.   Children, relatively speaking, aren’t at risk for this virus.  They are simply being used by scared adults to placate their own fear of a coronavirus they can get vaccinated against.  It’s absolutely sickening to watch children be used like this.  
 

You advocate for mandating vaccines to participate society, and I view that as the largest infringement upon us as citizens in my lifetime.   I also view it as the logical next step to social credit/economic systems as seen in China.  Don’t believe me, the IMF came out and said it.  
 

We both believe our country is in decline.   However there is a difference.  I view it from a Libertarian POV and you, from an Authoritarian POV.  
 

Each year in the United States, RSV leads to on average approximately 58,000 hospitalizations1 with 100-500 deaths among children younger than 5 years old2 and 177,000 hospitalizations with 14,000 deaths among adults aged 65 years or older.  As of today Covid has killed about 135 children less than 5 in the US, and there are increasing numbers of children in ICU beds right now.  So I would dispute that RSFV is far more deadly to children.  

 

I advocate for vaccines because the science of vaccines has prevented millions of deaths and long term disease.  The development of effective vaccinations is one of the great scientific and medical achievements of all times.  You are absolutely correct that children, thank God, were not as likely, in fact far less likely, to die from Covid, and I advocated just a few months ago to just open schools up because they were at such low risk.  But then the delta variant hit and it changed my perspective.  In my experience, the kids overall adapt to the masks far easier than we adults do, except when parents use their own kids as political pawns as we're seeing now.

 

Do I think vaccines should be mandated?  Yes, for diseases that offer a high rate of death and disability for the country as a whole, and for which we have no treatments or cures.   Look at the positive effect the polio vaccine, smallpox, measels and mumps vaccines have had for our society.  I put Covid in that category.  For other diseases that don't carry that kind of toll,  don't think there should be mandates.  Shingles, for example.  I should get mine, but I haven't, and if I get shingles it affects me.  If I choose to not get the Covid vaccine and I get infected, the data indicate I share it with on average 8 more people.   

 

So I have libertarian leanings on some things, but saving people's lives I don't.  If we could quarantine off the idiot anti-vaxers and let Darwin do his work, fine.  But we can't.

[The Frankish Reich]

11 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Covid is not Polio.  
 

These comparisons are nonsense. 

Well ...

... it is an established talking point of the COVID mitigation skeptics that severe cases of/deaths from COVID are vanishingly rare in non-elderly people. And that's basically true: there's about 125,000 COVID deaths in the United States of people under 65 since this all started (about 18 months ago). I don't feel like digging deeper, so let's say 100,000 of those occurred in a year out of roughly 278 million people under 65. So if you were under 65, you had about a one in three thousand chance of dying from COVID.

 

And polio? Well, cases (not deaths) from paralytic polio - what struck fear into Americans - ran at about 13 - 20,000 a year in the years preceding development of the Salk vaccine. Now, yes, a lot of these cases were in children, which for obvious reasons was more terrifying to people. And yes, the population of the USA was about 45% of what it is today. In mathematical terms: 15,000 severe cases per year in a population of 150 million = a one in ten thousand chance. 

 

OK, yes, yes, yes, you can look a co-morbidities and say that COVID as the cause of death is overstated, etc., etc.  But overall even if you are NOT a senior citizen, your chances of DYING from COVID are in the same range as your chances of being paralyzed (not necessarily dying, and not necessarily severely or even permanently paralyzed) are on the same order of magnitude.

 

So the point remains: one vaccine was accepted as necessary and, indeed, a civic duty; the other one is rejected by a big proportion of the American populace for all manner of mostly personal reasons. 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

This is an outrageous statement. I understand your frustrations but to make this claim is absurd.

Sorry, but there is no doubt about this.  There are governors of certain states that are OK with putting people at risk to die.  And the people who go along with them, and use their children as political pawns, are just as complicit.  

[Westside]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Sorry, but there is no doubt about this.  There are governors of certain states that are OK with putting people at risk to die.  And the people who go along with them, and use their children as political pawns, are just as complicit.  

So much drama!

[TSOL]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Each year in the United States, RSV leads to on average approximately 58,000 hospitalizations1 with 100-500 deaths among children younger than 5 years old2 and 177,000 hospitalizations with 14,000 deaths among adults aged 65 years or older.  As of today Covid has killed about 135 children less than 5 in the US, and there are increasing numbers of children in ICU beds right now.  So I would dispute that RSFV is far more deadly to children.  

 

I advocate for vaccines because the science of vaccines has prevented millions of deaths and long term disease.  The development of effective vaccinations is one of the great scientific and medical achievements of all times.  You are absolutely correct that children, thank God, were not as likely, in fact far less likely, to die from Covid, and I advocated just a few months ago to just open schools up because they were at such low risk.  But then the delta variant hit and it changed my perspective.  In my experience, the kids overall adapt to the masks far easier than we adults do, except when parents use their own kids as political pawns as we're seeing now.

 

Do I think vaccines should be mandated?  Yes, for diseases that offer a high rate of death and disability for the country as a whole, and for which we have no treatments or cures.   Look at the positive effect the polio vaccine, smallpox, measels and mumps vaccines have had for our society.  I put Covid in that category.  For other diseases that don't carry that kind of toll,  don't think there should be mandates.  Shingles, for example.  I should get mine, but I haven't, and if I get shingles it affects me.  If I choose to not get the Covid vaccine and I get infected, the data indicate I share it with on average 8 more people.   

 

So I have libertarian leanings on some things, but saving people's lives I don't.  If we could quarantine off the idiot anti-vaxers and let Darwin do his work, fine.  But we can't.

 

 

Evolution is doing its job just fine. 

 

Mankind's job is to live in harmony with nature, not to try to conquer  it. We won't win that contest. And the more we fight the natural course the worse off we will be. 

 

Corona is here to stay, learn to live with it. Healthy people over medicated is stupid. 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

18 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We both believe our country is in decline.   However there is a difference.  I view it from a Libertarian POV and you, from an Authoritarian POV.  
 

And that kind of proves oldmanfan's point. The Libertarian view has been in ascendancy since the 1960s. It is extremely skeptical of government initiatives. To that extent it rejects the kind of communitarian viewpoint that oldmanfan believes was the core of the American project, or Great American Experiment, or whatever you want to call it - a shared viewpoint that this country has a greater purpose, a shared purpose, that requires individual sacrifice and some limits on individual liberties in service of that common purpose.

[SCBills]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Each year in the United States, RSV leads to on average approximately 58,000 hospitalizations1 with 100-500 deaths among children younger than 5 years old2 and 177,000 hospitalizations with 14,000 deaths among adults aged 65 years or older.  As of today Covid has killed about 135 children less than 5 in the US, and there are increasing numbers of children in ICU beds right now.  So I would dispute that RSFV is far more deadly to children.  

 

I advocate for vaccines because the science of vaccines has prevented millions of deaths and long term disease.  The development of effective vaccinations is one of the great scientific and medical achievements of all times.  You are absolutely correct that children, thank God, were not as likely, in fact far less likely, to die from Covid, and I advocated just a few months ago to just open schools up because they were at such low risk.  But then the delta variant hit and it changed my perspective.  In my experience, the kids overall adapt to the masks far easier than we adults do, except when parents use their own kids as political pawns as we're seeing now.

 

Do I think vaccines should be mandated?  Yes, for diseases that offer a high rate of death and disability for the country as a whole, and for which we have no treatments or cures.   Look at the positive effect the polio vaccine, smallpox, measels and mumps vaccines have had for our society.  I put Covid in that category.  For other diseases that don't carry that kind of toll,  don't think there should be mandates.  Shingles, for example.  I should get mine, but I haven't, and if I get shingles it affects me.  If I choose to not get the Covid vaccine and I get infected, the data indicate I share it with on average 8 more people.   

 

So I have libertarian leanings on some things, but saving people's lives I don't.  If we could quarantine off the idiot anti-vaxers and let Darwin do his work, fine.  But we can't.

So, to be clear, you’d mask children every year due to RSV?

 

Also, to be clear, you’d mandate annual flu vaccines as well as the, now, annual covid vaccines?

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, Bidens_basement said:

So much drama!

 The truth hurts

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So, to be clear, you’d mask children every year due to RSV?

 

Also, to be clear, you’d mandate annual flu vaccines as well as the, now, annual covid vaccines?

Why not? We mandate all kinds of vaccines to attend school, to serve in the military, etc.

You may someday outgrow your fear of needles.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Why not? We mandate all kinds of vaccines to attend school, to serve in the military, etc.

You may someday outgrow your fear of needles.

Im living in fear, says the poster who wants mandated flu vaccines, covid vaccines and masking of children on an annual basis. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So, to be clear, you’d mask children every year due to RSV?

 

Also, to be clear, you’d mandate annual flu vaccines as well as the, now, annual covid vaccines?

I would first put a lot of resources into developing an effective vaccine against RSV.  And then follow the data; if there was a significant outbreak then I would absolutely have kids wear masks for prevention.  For flu, yes I would mandate vaccines.  I work or a health care organization, and everyone here must get the flu vaccine every year as a condition of employment.  But from a public health perspective, you look at benefit and risk.  The benefit to you and to the community at large from the flu vaccine  far, far outweigh any risks associated with the vaccine.  

 

I don't make viral diseases political.  I work in health care, I don't want people to die if they don't have to.  Simple.

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, SCBills said:

Im living in fear, says the poster who wants mandated flu vaccines, covid vaccines and masking of children on an annual basis. 

No, I have not said anything about "masking of children." On that one, I'm an old fashioned local control proponent. If the Berkeley CA school board wants kids masked, good for them. If the Abilene, TX school board doesn't, same here. There is no clear evidence of the cost/benefit either way, so let the locals decide.

 

How is wanting mandated vaccines "living in fear?" It's living in the real world. The cost/benefit calculus there is pretty damn clear and convincing. It's rational. Rational decisionmaking, once you explore it as a concept, is strangely liberating.

[Chef Jim]

Hysterical Chicken Little rears his ugly head.  

 

We survived so much in this country so much worse than this.  Let's do a little timeline from 100 years ago.  So someone who was 20 at the beginning of this timeline was 44 when it was over.  Quit your whining old man. 

 

1917 US Enters WWI

1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic

1929 Stock Market Crash

1930-1939 Great Depression

1939- Germany Invades Poland

1941 - Japanese Attack Pear Harbor

1941-1945 - WWII

 

Now I know you're talking more of the philosophical demise of the US but damn dude.  Good thing you're old.  Life sure sucks for you right now.  

 

 

 

[snafu]

46 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

From what perspective?  From a viral perspective, they are different viruses.  But from how it shows the depths to which America has sank, it is a perfect comparison.

 

The America of the 50's cared about things.  They cared about their children, they put their children's well being above politics.  There are literally politicians and just regular folk, some on this very board, who would rather see children die if it means they can cling to their political stance.  Think about that - there are folks who would be OK watching their own child die if it means their political side claim claim some sort of bizarre victory.  

 

People believed in science back then too.  They understood that back then, as well as now, people spent years in the education and training to become doctors and scientists because they felt called to eradicate disease.  People understood back then that science is a process, and that when presented with data and facts you alter your approach to treatments as more data was obtained.  Now, people think everyone who is trying to defeat Covid has some sort of sinister ulterior motive.  People get on Facebook and plant crap like there are chips in the vaccines trying to control you.  And they use that, again, as a way to try and kill more people to buttress a political philosophy.

 

People used to care about each other back then, especially cared about the kids. They used to care about the truth, about their country.   Not anymore.  They only care about themselves.  And before I get the "if you don't like it, leave crap",  I'll say this.  I'm not the one who hates this country.  Maybe not you SCBills, but the people who do the crap that I talked about here.  They hate this country, they hate what it stands for, and they should be the ones who get the hell out.

 

 

 

 

 

While politics in our country are way too tribal, the people you're describing are the exception, not the rule.

And I'd also say that people are extremely different when they post on anonymous message boards than they are when dealing with others face-to-face.

We are not nearly like the 50's, but things aren't as bleak as you say.  I'd wager that the world has the same %age of selfish ass-holes as any time in the past.  It's just that social media has allowed them to show themselves for what they are. 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

While politics in our country are way too tribal, the people you're describing are the exception, not the rule.

And I'd also say that people are extremely different when they post on anonymous message boards than they are when dealing with others face-to-face.

We are not nearly like the 50's, but things aren't as bleak as you say.  I'd wager that the world has the same %age of selfish ass-holes as any time in the past.  It's just that social media has allowed them to show themselves for what they are. 

 

 

 

I hope you're right.

[Chef Jim]

19 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

While politics in our country are way too tribal, the people you're describing are the exception, not the rule.

And I'd also say that people are extremely different when they post on anonymous message boards than they are when dealing with others face-to-face.

We are not nearly like the 50's, but things aren't as bleak as you say.  I'd wager that the world has the same %age of selfish ass-holes as any time in the past.  It's just that social media has allowed them to show themselves for what they are. 

 

 

 

 

Exactly.  I said this years ago Twitter was going to be the "death" of the Republic.  Nothing's really changed. It's just in your face 24/7.  We had The Buffalo Evening News delivered at 3pm (or whenever the kids delivering it got out of school)  Irv Weinstein at 6pm and Harry Reasoner and Howard K. Smith at 7pm and that was essentially it. 

 

Get off the Bots Twit For Brains. 

[TSOL]

Twitter is digital crack

[oldmanfan]

45 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Hysterical Chicken Little rears his ugly head.  

 

We survived so much in this country so much worse than this.  Let's do a little timeline from 100 years ago.  So someone who was 20 at the beginning of this timeline was 44 when it was over.  Quit your whining old man. 

 

1917 US Enters WWI

1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic

1929 Stock Market Crash

1930-1939 Great Depression

1939- Germany Invades Poland

1941 - Japanese Attack Pear Harbor

1941-1945 - WWII

 

Now I know you're talking more of the philosophical demise of the US but damn dude.  Good thing you're old.  Life sure sucks for you right now.  

 

 

 

Thanks for providing perfect examples of what I'm talking about.  We survived those very hard times because America was strong then, and because Americans back then realized there were things bigger than themselves.  We got through those very hard times because we sacrificed for the greater good.

 

Look at us today.  We have a Secretary of Defense who says he can't extract our own citizens from Afghanistan.  We have people around here who refuse to sacrifice for those around you and get a vaccine.  Who don't give a damn about anyone other than themselves, not even their kids. And you are so myopic you can't even see that you've proved my point.

 

America as a country, as the concept that made it the greatest country in the world, has given way.  The folks that lived through the era from 1917-1941 would smack us all across the face and tell us, as a whole, to grow up and face our responsibilities.   If they saw what's going on today they'd be ashamed.

5 minutes ago, TSOL said:

Twitter is digital crack

I've never done it and never will.  I oftentimes wonder if historians will look back centuries from now (if there are historians or anyone around then) and say that social media was the beginning of the end of our society.

[SoCal Deek]

With all due respect to the OP and others, I think you’re getting the messaging all mashed up. Slow down and take a breath. There’s a lot going on here. America is a simple concept born out of the outrageous core ideal of a free people. It’s freedom that we’re supposed to be defending both at home and abroad. Now, freedom of course doesn’t mean people do whatever they want whenever they want but  domestically lately we’ve been pushing the envelope and testing the water. As the federal government continues to expand its reach you’re going to see more and more such fraying at the edges. The further away decision making gets from the People, the less freedom the People will feel they have. 

[Chef Jim]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Thanks for providing perfect examples of what I'm talking about.  We survived those very hard times because America was strong then, and because Americans back then realized there were things bigger than themselves.  We got through those very hard times because we sacrificed for the greater good.

 

Look at us today.  We have a Secretary of Defense who says he can't extract our own citizens from Afghanistan.  We have people around here who refuse to sacrifice for those around you and get a vaccine.  Who don't give a damn about anyone other than themselves, not even their kids. And you are so myopic you can't even see that you've proved my point.

 

America as a country, as the concept that made it the greatest country in the world, has given way.  The folks that lived through the era from 1917-1941 would smack us all across the face and tell us, as a whole, to grow up and face our responsibilities.   If they saw what's going on today they'd be ashamed.

 

 

I fear you have had little conversations with Conservative Middle America.   You need to get out some.  

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect to the OP and others, I think you’re getting the messaging all mashed up. Slow down and take a breath. There’s a lot going on here. America is a simple concept born out of the outrageous core ideal of a free people. It’s freedom that we’re supposed to be defending both at home and abroad. Now, freedom of course doesn’t mean people do whatever they want whenever they want but  domestically lately we’ve been pushing the envelope and testing the water. As the federal government continues to expand its reach you’re going to see more and more such fraying at the edges. The further away decision making gets from the People, the less freedom the People will feel they have. 

I hope you're right.  I really do.  But I fear wehave gone so far over the edge we cannot retrieve the country.  

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I fear you have had little conversations with Conservative Middle America.   You need to get out some.  

I live right in the middle of conservative middle America.  The problem is there are no good conservatives or liberals anymore, just fringe elements destroying our country.

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

I live right in the middle of conservative middle America.  The problem is there are no good conservatives or liberals anymore, just fringe elements destroying our country.

 

Good lord dude.   There are shitloads of good conservatives out there.  You just aren't paying attention.   

[BillStime]

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Good lord dude.   There are shitloads of good conservatives out there.  You just aren't paying attention.   

They are being drowned out by the nonsense.  Our country was at its best when there were more liberal and more conservative individuals of each party.

[Chef Jim]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

They are being drowned out by the nonsense.  Our country was at its best when there were more liberal and more conservative individuals of each party.

 

They are not being drowned out by nonsense.  You allowing the nonsense to take over your ears, eyes and brain.  Go work in the garden old man.  

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

What happen?  Did the PPP GPS I send you run out of batteries.  

 

BTW this is one of your more childish memes.  Grow up man-child.  You're a ***** embarrassment. 

[SoCal Deek]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I hope you're right.  I really do.  But I fear wehave gone so far over the edge we cannot retrieve the country.  

 

That’s because there are forces at work that are actively and openly proclaiming their goal as being to ‘fundamentally transform America’. I’m not sure what you thought that meant, but if you float that trial balloon out there you’re going to stir up a pretty big hornets nest. 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

They are not being drowned out by nonsense.  You allowing the nonsense to take over your ears, eyes and brain.  Go work in the garden old man.  

 

What happen?  Did the PPP GPS I send you run out of batteries.  

 

BTW this is one of your more childish memes.  Grow up man-child.  You're a ***** embarrassment. 

So who is conservative to you?  DeSantis?  

[Chef Jim]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

So who is conservative to you?  DeSantis?  

 

Who in the ***** is talking politicians?  I'm talking the people of this great nation. Go out and take a walk old man.  Get some fresh air.  It will do you good.