drafts

[djfarr00]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history

 

Bills drafts from 1997 - 2000 were simply pathetic.

 

There isn't one player from the 2000 draft that is still on the team / made any impact when he did play for the team.

 

Players like Arrington are now superstars and remain w/ their original teams. I am really glad we dont have tavaress tillman and corey moore, but what horrible drafts.

 

I look at those years as our reason for failure in the last 2 years. Rookies take time to develop. from 97 - 00 we have basically no players that remain on the team. Only Peerless price and Antoine winfield had any talent.

 

In 3 years we'll be able to look back and see how TDs drafts have improved the team. Many players will still be on the team and they will have increased overall talent

[Nanker]

About one third of every team consists of journeymen players.

These are guys that can play but are not stars, nor are stars in the making.

They can last for years if management doesn't change because they're the devil that's "known." When a new regime takes over a club those players are lucky to survive through the second year because the new guy wants to pick his own depth (fillers).

 

Put another way, had JB not left, some of his cast of characters from those drafts would undoubtedly still be on The Bills and AJ would be our GM.

 

Here's another way of looking at it. There are 32 teams in the league. Each year I'll guess an average of 4 new players (rookies & UFAs) make each squad. That's 128 new players INTO the league which must be balanced by 128 old player OUT of the league. That's about 2 1/2 teams worth of players - every year. In five years that adds up to about a third of the league and over six years it's nearly half the league.

 

Now, pretend you're a GM that's just taken over a team. You want to keep the last guy's underwear, or get your own new stuff for cheaper at the Draft store?

[Nanker]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

 

 

Not to spoil a good ol' fashioned Whitey-hatin'.... but Pucillo is not with the team anymore.

 

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

Uh, Bannan, Pucillo, and Thomas were 5th rounders or later. Williams will likely be around and Thomas may be as well. Reed probably is a goner if he doesn't get his act together.

[Nanker]

Not to spoil a good ol' fashioned Whitey-hatin'.... but Pucillo is not with the team anymore.

 

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Exactly. That's the point.

 

It's not that I'm tortured that Donnaho is in control.

But I do think it's a stretch to crown him a genius at least at this point in his career.

[Nanker]

Uh, Bannan, Pucillo, and Thomas were 5th rounders or later.

300483[/snapback]

 

So...?

 

Williams will likely be around

300483[/snapback]

 

Really! Have you seen his cap hit over the next couple of years?

 

and Thomas may be as well. 

300483[/snapback]

 

The premise is a regime change at 1BD. I don't think Thomas would last. I really don't.

 

Reed probably is a goner if he doesn't get his act together.

300483[/snapback]

As early as this year perhaps.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

So...?

Day 2 picks rarely stick around PERIOD, especially after a regime change.

Really! Have you seen his cap hit over the next couple of years?

What are they?

The premise is a regime change at 1BD. I don't think Thomas would last. I really don't.

As a backup CB on the cheap, he probably would.

[Josh]

... how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

 

 

Will Willis McGahee?

Will Lee Evans?

Will JP Losman?

Will Terrence McGee?

Will Chris Kelsay?

Will Nate Clements?

 

It's sure easy to list a bunch of people that are already considered busts/half-busts....

[Nanker]

Day 2 picks rarely stick around PERIOD, especially after a regime change.

"...have you seen Mike Williams cap numbers?"

What are they?

 

As a backup CB on the cheap, he probably would.

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I'm quoting Clumping Platelets here,

"Mike Williams... I have his cap number now at $9.17 million because he triggered salary escalators for 2005-2007. He has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal signed in 2002. They breakdown as follows:

 

2005: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million. He also has a $1.5 million NLTBE incentive that I do not know how he earns.

 

2006: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million plus $1.5 million NLTBE.

 

2007: $5 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization plus $3.5 million NLTBE"

 

Nice pay for a RT, IMHO. I'm sure his fat-as-his-waistline salary won't factor into putting a lot more quality players on the field at The Ralph.

 

I think a backup CB could and would be had for cheaper than Thomas by a new GM (not Modrak - if he's the successor - I said regime change which implies wholesale change.)

 

Again, the point isn't to slime Donnaho any more than his record of not getting into the playoffs for four years has already done to him. I just don't think the guy's a genius, and as the original poster was trying to point out Butler's last drafts were weak. Well, JB was drafting around the 25th position. Donnaho's been drafting around 9th. Big difference if you ask me.

 

For example, Lavar Arrington was the #2 pick in The Draft in 2000. Buffalo picked Erick Flowers at #26. Look Here for hidden gems... Gosh! I'd have picked Arrington too! Why didn't Butler? What a maroon! He didn't get the job done - did he?

 

The other thing that some have overlooked here is that TD absolutely purged the roster. Not all of that was necessary to make payroll. If you think Willis is going to hang around here after his Rookie contract runs out without trying to stick up the bank, have another think about that, please.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Nanker,

 

I am not a blind follower of TD, but I honestly have to say that I do not understand your point at all. The original comment, that JB did not do well in the draft, is frankly much easier to prove, since there has been more time to see how drafts turn out. The fact that so few former JB draft choices have panned out here or anywhere is a sad commentary. By all means, count the extenuating circumstances; I believe he was giving it a try, but the truth is the 1996-200 drafts were all designed to be holding pattersn while JB and the rest of the Bills hoped that somehow the vet nucleus would produce one SB. Thus he did not take any chances, but kept looking for special pieces, hoping for that big break to come, while extending veterans like Fina... It did not come (thanks among other things to HRTF), and then it all came crashing down with cap hell in 2001.

 

TD was brought in to clean up that mess, and he has done a creditable job. Some in the NFL (outside of TSW) actually think he has done a very good job. Prophets and their native lands come to mind...

 

With that being said, your decision to jump on TD looks premature to me. It is really much much too early to claim that the players you cite (outside of Pucillo, a late round choice who has been cut) are busts. Sure we are unhappy that the Bills have not made the playoffs, but am I the only person who remembers we were over .500 last year? Look at the history of the Bills (especially outside of the magical years 1988-1993) and suddenly that does not look so insignificant. I am hopeful for the future, and am in no hurry to run TD off. Is he a genius? He's a football general manager. There are no geniuses in sports. Ask Bill Parcells how easy it is to win while rebuilding. The genius argument is a straw man. A better standard is, do you think that the Bills would be appreciably better with a different GM? I think not.

 

Go Bills!

[The Jokeman]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

 

Actually, I feel we lost Tra Thomas when trading for RJ in 1998 but then again if look at Butler's draft history he rarely took O-lineman in Round 1. Yet that's here nor there.

 

Let's look at Butler's 2002 draft with the Chargers, how many of these guys will still be with the Chargers and remember that they drafted 1 spot beneath us.

 

Will Quentin Jammer ?

Will Toniu Fonoti ?

Will Reche Caldwell ?

Will Ben Leber ?

Will Justin Peelle ?

[dave mcbride]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history

 

Bills drafts from 1997 - 2000 were simply pathetic.

 

There isn't one player from the 2000 draft that is still on the team / made any impact when he did play for the team. 

 

Players like Arrington are now superstars and remain w/ their original teams.  I am really glad we dont have tavaress tillman and corey moore, but what horrible drafts. 

 

I look at those years as our reason for failure in the last 2 years.  Rookies take time to develop.  from 97 - 00 we have basically no players that remain on the team.  Only Peerless price and Antoine winfield had any talent. 

 

In 3 years we'll be able to look back and see how TDs drafts have improved the team.  Many players will still be on the team and they will have increased overall talent

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talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

[djfarr00]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

yeah, but they'll be on someones team. i guess the point that i didn't make is that almost all of those players are gone from the NFL. If you look at other teams in the same time period, drafting in similar spots, we did a lousy job.

[djfarr00]

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

300686[/snapback]

only have to go as far as Pittsburgs 1998 draft

Faneca, Stat, Conrad, Ward, Townsend, King, Simmons, Fuatu ma'afala, Olsen

 

Price had one good year for us. i am really glad he did because it got us WM. However, if you think he's a talented receiver you clearly haven't been watching a lot of football. he's one of the worst #1 receivers in the league.

Note pittsburg 98 draft, hines ward came from the 92nd pick.

 

The major difference is as someone said, butler is great at drafting sweaty, dirty undies, the whites. I would take 3-4 superstars vs a bunch of journeyman anytime.

See also NE 2003 draft.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

TD's 2001 draft:

1 21 Nate Clements

2 46 Aaron Schobel

2 58 Travis Henry

3 76 Ron Edwards

3 95 Jonas Jennings

4 110 Brandon Spoon

5 144 Marques Sullivan

6 178 Tony Driver

6 195 Dan O'Leary

6 196 Jimmy Williams

7 214 Reggie Germany

7 238 Tyrone Robertson

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

[34-78-83]

TD's 2001 draft:

1  21  Nate Clements 

2  46  Aaron Schobel 

2  58  Travis Henry 

3  76  Ron Edwards 

3  95  Jonas Jennings 

4  110  Brandon Spoon 

5  144  Marques Sullivan 

6  178  Tony Driver

6  195  Dan O'Leary 

6  196  Jimmy Williams 

7  214  Reggie Germany 

7  238  Tyrone Robertson 

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

300717[/snapback]

 

Good reply. I'd agree that this was a better draft as well.

 

Here's one that I'd add as well from the Packers in 1995:

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 32 Craig Newsome DB Arizona State

3 65 Darius Holland DT Colorado

3 66 William Henderson FB North Carolina

3 73 Brian Williams OLB Southern California

3 90 Antonio Freeman WR Virginia Tech

4 117 Jeff Miller T Mississippi

5 160 Jay Barker QB Alabama

5 170 Travis Jervey RB Citadel

6 173 Charlie Simmons WR Georgia Tech

7 230 Adam Timmerman G South Dakota State

 

 

and.... (Pats)

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 23 Ty Law CB Michigan

2 57 Ted Johnson ILB Colorado

3 74 Curtis Martin RB Pittsburgh

3 88 Jimmy Hitchcock CB North Carolina

4 112 Dave Wohlabaugh C Syracuse

6 195 Dino Philyaw RB Oregon

7 234 Carlos Yancy DB Georgia

[dave mcbride]

only have to go as far as Pittsburgs 1998 draft

Faneca, Stat, Conrad, Ward, Townsend, King, Simmons, Fuatu ma'afala, Olsen

 

Price had one good year for us.  i am really glad he did because it got us WM.  However, if you think he's a talented receiver you clearly haven't been watching a lot of football.  he's one of the worst #1 receivers in the league. 

Note pittsburg 98 draft, hines ward came from the 92nd pick.

 

The major difference is as someone said, butler is great at drafting sweaty, dirty undies, the whites.  I would take 3-4 superstars vs a bunch of journeyman anytime. 

See also NE 2003 draft.

300715[/snapback]

 

price had four good years for the bills; there was a steady progression every year in his game. as for him being one of the "worst #1 receivers" in the game, last time i checked, teams in the nf of l started two (and sometimes 3) receivers if they happen to run a pro formation offense. in that sort of offense, a good # 2 receiver is key. plus, if you're going to judge price's rep on his post-bills production in the ron mexico-led offfense of the falcons, i guess there's nothing to discuss.

 

as for donohoe's 1999 draft, present some evidence. same goes for NE circa 2003.

[dave mcbride]

TD's 2001 draft:

1  21  Nate Clements 

2  46  Aaron Schobel 

2  58  Travis Henry 

3  76  Ron Edwards 

3  95  Jonas Jennings 

4  110  Brandon Spoon 

5  144  Marques Sullivan 

6  178  Tony Driver

6  195  Dan O'Leary 

6  196  Jimmy Williams 

7  214  Reggie Germany 

7  238  Tyrone Robertson 

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

300717[/snapback]

 

mbd, this is a good draft to be sure. my only comment is that the late round production is pathetic - no one even played besides spoon, and he only played because cowart was hurt (spoon was terrible too).

[dave mcbride]

Good reply. I'd agree that this was a better draft as well.

 

Here's one that I'd add as well from the Packers in 1995:

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 32 Craig Newsome DB Arizona State

3 65 Darius Holland DT Colorado

3 66 William Henderson FB North Carolina

3 73 Brian Williams OLB Southern California

3 90 Antonio Freeman WR Virginia Tech

4 117 Jeff Miller T Mississippi

5 160 Jay Barker QB Alabama

5 170 Travis Jervey RB Citadel

6 173 Charlie Simmons WR Georgia Tech

7 230 Adam Timmerman G South Dakota State

and.... (Pats)

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 23 Ty Law CB Michigan

2 57 Ted Johnson ILB Colorado

3 74 Curtis Martin RB Pittsburgh

3 88 Jimmy Hitchcock CB North Carolina

4 112 Dave Wohlabaugh C Syracuse

6 195 Dino Philyaw RB Oregon

7 234 Carlos Yancy DB Georgia

300718[/snapback]

 

thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest -- i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face.

[djfarr00]

price had four good years for the bills; there was a steady progression every year in his game.  as for him being one of the "worst #1 receivers" in the game, last time i checked, teams in the nf of l started two (and sometimes 3) receivers if they happen to run a pro formation offense.  in that sort of offense, a good # 2 receiver is key. plus, if you're going to judge price's rep on his post-bills production in the ron mexico-led offfense of the falcons, i guess there's nothing to discuss.

 

as for donohoe's 1999 draft, present some evidence. same goes for NE circa 2003.

300767[/snapback]

even more key than that #2 is a good #1. Price ain't it.

 

Price had a few 6 - 7 hundred yard seasons, then one breakout year. not quite the allstar he was touted as on someones post.

 

As far a vic goes, a great wide reciever will get his numbers w/ a bad quarterback and bad "2 and 3" receivers. most recently Owens on the niners

See Garcia, wilson, streets

 

 

1998 pitts. draft (which was already listed) just not round by round

round 1 26th pick (later than butler ever had) - Alan Faneca (best G in NFL)

2- Jeremy Staat

3- Chris Conrad

3- Hines Ward

4 Deshea Townsend

4 Chirs King

5 Jason Simmons

6 Fuamatu ma'afala

 

2002 pats

1 Daniel Graham

2 Deion Branch

4 Rohan Davey

4 Jarvis Green

7 Antione Womack

7 David Givens

 

2003 Pats

1 Ty Warren

2 Eugene Wilson

2 Bethel Johnson

4 Dan Klecko

4 Asante Samuel

5 Dan Koppan

6 Kliff Kingsbury

 

2000 bills draft

1 (at 26, same as Faneca) ERIK FLOWERS

2- TAVERASS TILLMAN

3COREY MOORE

4 AVION BLACK

5 SAMMY MORRIS

6 LEIF LARSON

7DASHON POLK

 

To my original point... the reason we didn't have talent and Donahoe had some much work was because no players that we drafter were any good ( excpet 3 in 99) 98 sucked and 00 was maybe the worst draft class in the history of the bills. i wasn't stating Donahoe a god, but he's done a pretty good job w/o the help of good core group. if you look at the pats drafts (listed by me) all or a large majority make a contribution on the team. We didn't get that from Butlers crap ass drafts.

 

Also i see a lot of people met the challenge of finding a better draft class

[beerme1]

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

300686[/snapback]

 

 

How can I say this politely without offending? I'll try this.

I thought John Butler was a blowhard as a GM. I never felt like he had a grasp of what was really going on.

To put it bluntly, he would have made one hell of an Erie County Legislator!! But may he RIP.

 

Anyway after reading your post it gives me a bad taste of Donahoe. Mind you I would say that was a home run draft for Big John.

I dislike TD even more than Butler. But I will say he sure as hell knows how to manage a cap where Butler was absolutely clueless about it.

 

I would like to add that MadBuffaloDisease with the breakdown of TD's 2001 draft equals if not betters this. But TD is looked at by Ralph as much more than a GM and I don't think that will ever change.

No matter what, some GM will always get a lucky breakout player that turns out to be a difference maker. Willis is that kind of gamble, and guess what you heard it here first folks,

 

JP is taking us to the playoffs in his first year as a starter!

If he doesn't, then I've got at least a dollar for anyone who cares to claim it!!! I guess that would solidify TD in my mind and many others.

[djfarr00]

thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest --  i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face.

300772[/snapback]

it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck.

 

This ignorant yahoo (good guess) has independant thoughts. I happen to believe we are in the situation we are in (better than most teams) only because whitey took over.

 

also, i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years. It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen

 

also - last time i checked sd was only good last year. prior to that the team was a mess.

[Nanker]

thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest --  i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face.

300772[/snapback]

 

Thank you.

[Oneknee]

"it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck."

 

Funny..and true.

 

"i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years. It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen."

 

Also true. I believe draft quality dropped considerably after BP left.

 

"also - last time i checked sd was only good last year."

 

Very true. Check out Butler's epic 2002 SD draft for further evidence...

 

 

 

 

I don't think the initial point was to denegrade Butler or deify Donohue, but to look for the reason why the roster had to be completely rebuilt during the last few years. There was NO TALENT due to poor drafts. Sorry the guy is dead, but he was not a good GM. Not only do you have the draft history, but as another poster mentioned, Butler had no concept of cap mgmt. What do I know though? I'm off to have another cigarette...

[MadBuffaloDisease]

I'm off to have another cigarette...

Better quit that before we have to call you OneLung.

[dave mcbride]

it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck.

 

This ignorant yahoo (good guess) has independant thoughts.  I happen to believe we are in the situation we are in (better than most teams) only because whitey took over. 

 

also, i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years.  It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen

 

also - last time i checked sd was only good last year.    prior to that the team was a mess.

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re butler in the late 80s/early 90s, he was the head of scouting and the guy who told polian who was good and who wasn't. polian pulled the trigger, but he was working from info given to him by butler's college scouting team. butler is widely credited for the thurman thomas pick in 88, by the way.

 

as for the bolts, butler took over a really bad team that got a lot better last year after he passed away. the last time donohoe oversaw a 12-4 team was 1997.

 

don't get me wrong - donohoe is a solid guy who has had some real success in the past (that said, the bills better produce this year or his rep will go up in smoke, at least to me). butler was integral to the bills success under polian - he wasn't just another guy fulfilling polian's commands.

 

here's what the bills did under butler:

 

1993 - 12-4

1994 - 7-9

1995 - 10-6

1996 - 10-6

1997 - 6-10

1998 - 10-6

1999 - 11-5

2000 - 8-8

 

That's 74-54 (a .578 winning percentage), which translates into 94-68 in baseball. that's not too shabby. if the ultimate determinant of success is wins and losses, i'll take that. recall that the bills defense was a dominant unit from 1995 through 2000 as well.

 

one other thing - don't forget about the free agent signings. paup, ted washington, bill brooks (a very solid #2 for a couple of years), spielman, gash, and flutie were all integral to the bills success in that period.

[/dev/null]

IMO no discussion on Butler draft picks is complete without mentioning Kamil Loud

 

wonder what he's up to. haven't heard any Ode's lately...

[Kelly the Dog]

thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest --  i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face.

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Depends on what you're talking about. A GM's job is multi-faceted, with the draft being a significant part but in reality, only about 20-25% of the GM's job. TD's record is pretty good IMO in that area and solid or fair IYO in that area.

 

But he has been very good IMO in the free agency element of his job description (considering who he has signed and who he let go).

 

He has been excellent in the getting fannies in the seats element of his job description.

 

He has been fantastic in the promotion and regionalization element (going to St. John Fisher, attracting the Rochester fan base, corporate sponsorship, Syracuse, Ontario, etc.).

 

He has been quite good in the salary cap element of his job description.

 

He has been pretty good in the trade element (Getting McGahee for PP and Drew, whom even though he let us down got the city energized, the fan base up, got PP enough press to get Willis, got Spikes and Adams and Viincent and a few others to join the team in FA).

 

He has been poor in his coaching choices (so far, with a pretty good chance of Mularkey proving to be a fine choice).

 

And he has been poor in the won-loss/playoffs element but I would think the team let him down more than he let the team down.

 

This year will likely be a good window as to whether or not TD's reign will be deemed a success or not. I think he has put the team in a very good position to excel in the next few years.

[dave mcbride]

Depends on what you're talking about. A GM's job is multi-faceted, with the draft being a significant part but in reality, only about 20-25% of the GM's job. TD's record is pretty good IMO in that area and solid or fair IYO in that area.

 

But he has been very good IMO in the free agency element of his job description (considering who he has signed and who he let go).

 

He has been excellent in the getting fannies in the seats element of his job description.

 

He has been fantastic in the promotion and regionalization element (going to St. John Fisher, attracting the Rochester fan base, corporate sponsorship, Syracuse, Ontario, etc.).

 

He has been quite good in the salary cap element of his job description.

 

He has been pretty good in the trade element (Getting McGahee for PP and Drew, whom even though he let us down got the city energized, the fan base up, got PP enough press to get Willis, got Spikes and Adams and Viincent and a few others to join the team in FA).

 

He has been poor in his coaching choices (so far, with a pretty good chance of Mularkey proving to be a fine choice).

 

And he has been poor in the won-loss/playoffs element but I would think the team let him down more than he let the team down.

 

This year will likely be a good window as to whether or not TD's reign will be deemed a success or not. I think he has put the team in a very good position to excel in the next few years.

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dog, i'd agree that donohoe is better in the biz department, and i don't mean to sell that stuff short - it's really important. but from where i sit personally, i really only care about wins and losses. donohoe hasn't done so well in that regard, althought the last 2/3 of last season are pointing in the right direction (plus i instinctively like mularkey). as for the team letting him down, it's his freaking team, lock, stock, and barrel. you can't separate him from it.