What RB cracks first?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

The team is under NO obligation to re-negotiate. If the player wants to sit, he can do so without pay. If the team decides it’s worth it, they can elect to re-negotiate. The player cannot make the team do this. It’s simple, really. 

 

Contract law doesn't apply in sports.  Sure in theory it does, but reality is something else!

[LSHMEAB]

I don't think Zeke will blink. He's got the upper hand.

 

If one of them is going to crack, it'll be Gordon. 

On 7/27/2019 at 7:42 PM, mrags said:

Bottom line is they signed contracts and should honor them. If not, they can hold out and waste a year if their careers like that douche Bell. 

 

I hope they get their contracts and have career ending injuries. 

Bell got paid, so whatever they think of his antics, it worked out for him.

 

And you seem to be missing the fact that the team also agreed to the contract; so I have to assume you're also against a team cutting a player before his contract expires, correct?

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I don't think Zeke will blink. He's got the upper hand.

 

If one of them is going to crack, it'll be Gordon. 

Bell got paid, so whatever they think of his antics, it worked out for him.

 

And you seem to be missing the fact that the team also agreed to the contract; so I have to assume you're also against a team cutting a player before his contract expires, correct?

Bell didn’t get anything. He got paid no more than what he would have played for under his tag. Everyone wants to talk about how short of a lifespan a RB has in their career, but then want to justify them sitting out and missing a year of their career? Youve got to be kidding me. You people must be a special kinda of stupid. 

 

And I am not missing anything about the teams signing the contracts. The teams and the players are agreeing to the guaranteed money. That’s on the player. If they think they are worth more, or should be worth more, then they should ask or demand more in guaranteed money. 

 

If were here arguing about the rookie contracts, then it’s also the players fault because they voted for that in the CBA. And don’t get it confused, everyone wanted it at the tome. Owners, and players both. 

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

Bell didn’t get anything. He got paid no more than what he would have played for under his tag. Everyone wants to talk about how short of a lifespan a RB has in their career, but then want to justify them sitting out and missing a year of their career? Youve got to be kidding me. You people must be a special kinda of stupid. 

 

Number of carries/usage is most definitely one factor in the overall lifespan of a RB's career. I don't like to throw out singular names because it's anecdotal, but FredEx comes to mind. Bell didn't want to risk injury on a one year deal, got to choose his team, and got paid. I'm not sure how he lost. It's fair to critique the way he went about his business, but the maneuver basically worked.

 

You make a strong point about GUARANTEED DOLLARS in a contract as a counter to the argument of "if a team can cut a player, the player has every right to hold out." I still don't personally have a problem with a player attempting to maximize his earnings, but I'll call a strong case when I see it.

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Number of carries/usage is most definitely one factor in the overall lifespan of a RB's career. I don't like to throw out singular names because it's anecdotal, but FredEx comes to mind. Bell didn't want to risk injury on a one year deal, got to choose his team, and got paid. I'm not sure how he lost. It's fair to critique the way he went about his business, but the maneuver basically worked.

 

You make a strong point about GUARANTEED DOLLARS in a contract as a counter to the argument of "if a team can cut a player, the player has every right to hold out." I still don't personally have a problem with a player attempting to maximize his earnings, but I'll call a strong case when I see it.

There’s zero case for it. If you get hired at an office or McDonalds flipping burgers for $15/hr. Doesn’t matter. You get hired at that rate and when your evaluation is due and time for a raise you will either get one or you won’t. I’d imagine fast food places give evaluations every 3-6 months. Make your case then. Maybe you will get promoted to the fryers. Or maybe a cashier. Earning the extra .50/hour. If you work in an office, it’s probably a year you’ll be waiting. Good luck with everything. 

 

As as far as an nfl player, they sign a contract and when the contract is up they can renegotiate a new contract. Until that tome comes, if the team they play for doesn’t want to renegotiate, they are not only not required to, they are right. That player is under contract and that’s it. 

[nucci]

On 7/26/2019 at 5:38 PM, I am the egg man said:

It's not a Bills issue, so who really cares in here ?

we discuss NFL issues here as well....not sure why you don't know that

On 7/26/2019 at 9:09 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm thinking Gordon

I think Zeke is more of the offense.  He's also a bit more nutz IMO (sorry @CowgirlsFan)

 

 

Team does honor it.  The options and actions open to both are spelled out in the contract.  You and the players may not LIKE those options as they tend to favor the team (team has the right to cut the player) but I've never heard of a team not honoring a contract.  If the player gets injured after he signs and the contract is guaranteed for injury, the team pays.  See Wood, Eric.  If the salary is guaranteed and the team cuts the player after he's been here 2 weeks, the team pays.  See Coleman, Corey.

 

 

why not just say Eric Wood and Corey Coleman? Are you Bills Fan, Hapless?

[LSHMEAB]

13 minutes ago, mrags said:

There’s zero case for it. If you get hired at an office or McDonalds flipping burgers for $15/hr. Doesn’t matter. You get hired at that rate and when your evaluation is due and time for a raise you will either get one or you won’t. I’d imagine fast food places give evaluations every 3-6 months. Make your case then. Maybe you will get promoted to the fryers. Or maybe a cashier. Earning the extra .50/hour. If you work in an office, it’s probably a year you’ll be waiting. Good luck with everything.  

Talk about apples and oranges. That McDonald's/office employee has virtually no leverage. We're talking about premiere/very difficult to replace athletes. Pretty sure McDonald's workers' don't even have contracts, but I would certainly advise Timmy working the register to think twice before demanding a raise unless he has a better offer on the table from Sonic.

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Talk about apples and oranges. That McDonald's/office employee has virtually no leverage. We're talking about premiere/very difficult to replace athletes. Pretty sure McDonald's workers' don't even have contracts, but I would certainly advise Timmy working the register to think twice before demanding a raise unless he has a better offer on the table from Sonic.

Unfortunately Bell didn’t have any leverage either. Didn’t work out for him very well apparently. He ended up on a worse team, in a worse situation, with the same amount of money he would have made in Pittsburgh. 

[nucci]

On 7/27/2019 at 9:42 PM, mrags said:

Bottom line is they signed contracts and should honor them. If not, they can hold out and waste a year if their careers like that douche Bell. 

 

I hope they get their contracts and have career ending injuries. 

Why? They're both great players to watch

31 minutes ago, mrags said:

There’s zero case for it. If you get hired at an office or McDonalds flipping burgers for $15/hr. Doesn’t matter. You get hired at that rate and when your evaluation is due and time for a raise you will either get one or you won’t. I’d imagine fast food places give evaluations every 3-6 months. Make your case then. Maybe you will get promoted to the fryers. Or maybe a cashier. Earning the extra .50/hour. If you work in an office, it’s probably a year you’ll be waiting. Good luck with everything. 

 

As as far as an nfl player, they sign a contract and when the contract is up they can renegotiate a new contract. Until that tome comes, if the team they play for doesn’t want to renegotiate, they are not only not required to, they are right. That player is under contract and that’s it. 

Don't compare a regular job to being a professional athlete. It doesn't work

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

Why? They're both great players to watch

Don't compare a regular job to being a professional athlete. It doesn't work

Neither did holding out for Bell

[nucci]

Just now, mrags said:

Neither did holding out for Bell

I wasn't talking about that...you mentioned you wanted both to suffer career ending injuries

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

I wasn't talking about that...you mentioned you wanted both to suffer career ending injuries

Sure. I don’t like money grubbing, entitled people. Especially athletes. 

[nucci]

Just now, mrags said:

Sure. I don’t like money grubbing, entitled people. Especially athletes. 

so you wish bad things to happen to them?

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, nucci said:

so you wish bad things to happen to them?

Their careers could end tomorrow and I couldn’t care less 

[Augie]

3 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

 They re-negotiate to retain players.

 

I mean obviously Zeke and Gordon have little recourse here. But FOH with knowing contract law lol. Contract law can't coerce these guys into doing anything should they want to hold out. Players can win these if the team wants to maintain a positive future relationship within a reasonable amount. I don't particularly care but my opinions on RB contracts don't have anything to do with dry contract law. If the Hulk is a RB, he gets extended to what he wants because he's so good whoever has him pays no one else and watches Hulk smash. Hulk's leverage makes his holdout more impactful.

 

A) The team has the option to re-negotiate. They are under no obligation whatsoever to do so. 

B) The player has every right to sit out. They just don’t get paid or accumulate the year of service. No “coercing” here, play and make money, sit on the couch and miss the pay checks. Maybe the team decides to renegotiate, maybe they don’t. 

 

I have to believe you’re just kidding at this point, so I’ll step out. 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Contract law doesn't apply in sports.  Sure in theory it does, but reality is something else!

 

What is that thing they sign that lays out the terms? Before anybody gets paid.  It might be monkeyed with in sports more than some other fields, but it is VERY applicable, particularly because of disputes like this. The contract lays out the rules of how this game is played. It’s not just in theory, it’s the rules the dispute is played by.   

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

It's tough - the Cowboys rely on zeke more and it'd likely be no new money in 2019 anyway.  His option year is set at around 10mil, but he'll want to be highest paid at his position, so i would guess 16per year?  But looking at Dak going from 2 mil to 30 mil, and Cooper looking for 20... gonna be tough to come up with the 55+ needed for all 3.  Zekes not even in his option year yet either... Just a mess.  You hit on a 4th round QB but when it comes time to pay him you have to gut the team it seems like.  

 

Gordon's interesting because... he's a good player, but hes not even close to as good as elliot.  Worse YPC... Comparable Receiving numbers... More Miles... Missed time with injuries in 3/4 years... 1 1000 yard season.  So its hard to evaluate where he should be paid honestly.  Somewhere in the AAV between freemans 8.25 and Johnsons 13 - either way its more than the 5 he's set to make this year. 

 

Both are looking for large guarantees - but i tried to simplify and look at the AAV

Edited August 5, 2019 by dneveu

[MR8]

Zeke has more leverage as a producer for their offense, but less as a player because of where he is on his rookie deal, and how short he's bee in in the league... I think he'll report sooner... he has too much time left, and the team will tell him they'll pick up his option after this year giving him a massive raise and they'll discuss in good faith, HOWEVER they simply can't afford to give him the money now.  As a guy still early on a rookie deal he can sit, but it's not a precedent that is going to be made, no team is going to let a rookie hold the hostage when they fought to have a rookie pay scale.   

 

Gordon is also very young, but he has more leverage from the stand point of time in the league and having THAT particular leg to stand on... but with Eckler in LA, they have another completely viable back, and their offense runs through Rivers and those WRs more than Gordon... he's amazing but he's a complimentary piece... he's not "the show" like Zeke is.... I honestly think they don't feel a drop off having Eckler be the guy instead...

 

I think Gordon holds out until week 6... the question is do they trade him or just let him sit?  

 

I think Zeke reports for week 1. 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

A) The team has the option to re-negotiate. They are under no obligation whatsoever to do so. 

B) The player has every right to sit out. They just don’t get paid or accumulate the year of service. No “coercing” here, play and make money, sit on the couch and miss the pay checks. Maybe the team decides to renegotiate, maybe they don’t. 

 

I have to believe you’re just kidding at this point, so I’ll step out. 

----->  C) Both teams and players have leverage in negotiations <----

 

This isn't rocket science man. There's no obligation, but it's just an inherent part of teams trying to build good football rosters. What am I kidding about lol. Humor me, I agree with A) and B). Teams don't do anything against their interest BUT.. neither do players. Right? Cause there's 2 sides inking all these deals? 

 

All I am asking is that you believe a team is affected.. in any way.. by the player's side of the bargaining table. Because my talking points were always based on the silly notion players have leverage. And you seem to keep refuting that with "no contract power = no leverage" - Just because players can not change their own contracts means they have no influence on what their contracts might become? 

 

If you feud in contract disputes often, the player seeks FA. If you lose games, as too many players hold out, you may have your hand forced to re-negotiate. A player may simply be unhappy with his deal, be a locker room cancer, under-perform. Ultimately you'd be a crappy team if you can't negotiate for your own interests of acquiring and retaining good players. 

 

If Zeke holds out first 3 weeks, Cowboys go 0-3, Zeke may re-sign at some point halfway. It's a game of chicken and I just want to make sure you're acknowledging with me that Zeke has just a sliver of leverage. Whatever leverage you want to assign him, but Zeke has some impact on how he gets paid lol. Contract law has nothing to do with this: are the cowboys the exact same team without Zeke? Noooooooo. <-- that's leverage.

Edited August 5, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

 

The team is under NO obligation to re-negotiate. If the player wants to sit, he can do so without pay. If the team decides it’s worth it, they can elect to re-negotiate. The player cannot make the team do this. It’s simple, really. 

So you're just ignoring the demand side of the equation. Does the customer set a price to buy at? No technically the seller sells at the price to sell at. 

 

Does this mean the customer has no influence on the price? No, the price is really dictated by the free market.

 

NFL teams operate in a free market. Provided they want to win just like a seller wants a profit. why do players demand and get trades despite no obligation from the team to make that trade..  because the player has influence.. or leverage on the team to make that happen. Just because teams dictate the contracts doesn't mean they can operate with impunity given they have an ulterior motive to win.

Edited August 5, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P