Josh Allen vs Carson Wentz - Rookie Season

[Mr. WEO]

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Wentz is a tad overrated. I disagree on Foles though. I think he is overrated too. People forget he started the first couple of games last season and was awful. Foles is going to fall hard in Jax. 

 

Huh?  He had a rough start in the 1st game (a win).  The second game he was 35/48 and 334 yards.

 

Then he came in and put out the Went-led tire fire and and won 3 straight to get them from January tee time to playoffs.

 

Foles is money, Wentz is Medicare Part B.

 

In 5 years, Wentz will be watching Allen on TV from  September to February.

[GoBills808]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Im just gonna say it...stop with the Cam Newton comparisons to Allen, they are not the same QB.  I do understand the comparison, but Allen is not in the mold of Cam.  Is there some similarities, sure, but the reality is the type of game they play is not the same nor is Allens projection.  

 

I mean it makes sense on the surface...our staffs connection to Carolina.  Both big guys.  Both can run.  Both big arms.  Both have had questions about accuracy.  

 

BUT...style is way different and the game Josh is trying to play is not the same game Cam plays.  I wont call it a lazy comparison, because I can see why some gravitate to that given the above reasons.  But the comparison is shallow and is more about their physical traits along with their percieved strengths and weaknesses.  But Allens style is different, and what he projects to be if he develops into his potential is not only different than Cam, but better.  

 

Allen compares much more to Big Ben, John Elway, Steve Young...in terms of style.  Long way to go before he is on their level of course, but strictly talking the type of QB he is aspiring and projecting to be.  Guys with big arms who looked to push the ball downfield first but could hurt you bad with their legs when forced to or the opportunity arose.  Newton will never be this type of passer, but thats the path Allen is on.  Only time will tell if he gets there, but I think he will.  

 

Good call on Roethlisberger. That's who I saw in Allen from that preseason TD throw against the Browns, the way he maneuvered in the pocket and kept his balance and had to throw from an awkward angle without being set. Roethlisberger had some mobility when he was younger too, although not nearly as much as Allen. Main difference I see right now between the two (talking young Roethlisberger) is Allen doesn't have the same decisiveness going to his read.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Huh?  He had a rough start in the 1st game (a win).  The second game he was 35/48 and 334 yards.

 

Then he came in and put out the Went-led tire fire and and won 3 straight to get them from January tee time to playoffs.

 

Foles is money, Wentz is Medicare Part B.

 

In 5 years, Wentz will be watching Allen on TV from  September to February.

 

In fairness that is better than he played that 2nd game by my memory (and I did watch the game) but fair enough. 

 

I don't disagree on Wentz being overrated. I agree - he is. I just am not a big Foles guy. Below average QB propped up by his system. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Good call on Roethlisberger. That's who I saw in Allen from that preseason TD throw against the Browns, the way he maneuvered in the pocket and kept his balance and had to throw from an awkward angle without being set. Roethlisberger had some mobility when he was younger too, although not nearly as much as Allen. Main difference I see right now between the two (talking young Roethlisberger) is Allen doesn't have the same decisiveness going to his read.

 

Yeah was definitely referencing young Big Ben where mobility, at least running, was still a large part of his game.  And for sure, Allen has a ways to go still in being decisive and reading defenses.  This is where he will need to improve the most at (like all Rookie QB's) for him to take that big step this year.  Being the unquestioned starter and getting all the reps this year and off season workouts will go a long way in helping him figure that out though.  The upgraded OL will help a lot too.

[GunnerBill]

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Im just gonna say it...stop with the Cam Newton comparisons to Allen, they are not the same QB.  I do understand the comparison, but Allen is not in the mold of Cam.  Is there some similarities, sure, but the reality is the type of game they play is not the same nor is Allens projection.  

 

I mean it makes sense on the surface...our staffs connection to Carolina.  Both big guys.  Both can run.  Both big arms.  Both have had questions about accuracy.  

 

BUT...style is way different and the game Josh is trying to play is not the same game Cam plays.  I wont call it a lazy comparison, because I can see why some gravitate to that given the above reasons.  But the comparison is shallow and is more about their physical traits along with their percieved strengths and weaknesses.  But Allens style is different, and what he projects to be if he develops into his potential is not only different than Cam, but better.  

 

Allen compares much more to Big Ben, John Elway, Steve Young...in terms of style.  Long way to go before he is on their level of course, but strictly talking the type of QB he is aspiring and projecting to be.  Guys with big arms who looked to push the ball downfield first but could hurt you bad with their legs when forced to or the opportunity arose.  Newton will never be this type of passer, but thats the path Allen is on.  Only time will tell if he gets there, but I think he will.  

 

In what way don't you think Cam is that type of passer? I have made the Big Ben comparison with Allen before too (Elway and Young are before my time) but I don't think Ben and Cam are that different as passers. They are both guys who play outside of the pocket as much as (and maybe better than) they play inside it, they are both much more comfortable pushing it down the field than taking the checkdown and they both gave good arms. However, neither are precision passers. Cam isn't and Ben has never been either. He is accurate enough to succeed in the NFL but he wasn't a precision passer coming out and has never been one in the league. 

 

The differences between Cam and Ben for me are that Cam is a better athlete than Ben ever was and Ben is a better clutch player than Cam ever will be. It is essentially athletics v leadership. But in terms of mechanics of how they play as passers I think they have a lot in common. 

 

I think Allen has some things in common with both. 

[Mr. WEO]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In fairness that is better than he played that 2nd game by my memory (and I did watch the game) but fair enough. 

 

I don't disagree on Wentz being overrated. I agree - he is. I just am not a big Foles guy. Below average QB propped up by his system. 

 

 

Maybe,  But he has won more games than he lost in a lot of different systems.  As a starter, he's had one losing record.

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In fairness that is better than he played that 2nd game by my memory (and I did watch the game) but fair enough. 

 

I don't disagree on Wentz being overrated. I agree - he is. I just am not a big Foles guy. Below average QB propped up by his system. 

 

Foles really only had 2 great games that year, they just happened to be the NFC Champ game and Super Bowl.  His other starts were mostly meh outside of one.  

 

Foles is going to be to Jacksonville what Keenum was to Denver.  A guy they over paid and wish they hadn't...except Foles will be a lot harder to trade on that contract than Keenums 2 year deal.  

 

I also think Wentz is overrated based on one small sample size of games in a single season.  Ive seen guys like JP Losman look promising for 9 games.  Heck Foles had one heck of a season early in his career too.  Wentz needs to show that he can both stay healthy and play up to that level again.  He did neither this year.  Carr looked like the next big QB and now look at him, people don't even know if he will be on the Raiders next year officially or not.  

 

Wentz is obviously a guy who has the potential to be a very good or better QB, he has shown that.  But can he get back to that level and can he stay healthy are definitely question marks.  But he is routinely talked about as if he is just already a yearly MVP candidate type QB, which right now he is not.  

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 Ive seen guys like JP Losman look promising for 9 games.

 

 

 

Wait....consecutive??

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Foles really only had 2 great games that year, they just happened to be the NFC Champ game and Super Bowl.  His other starts were mostly meh outside of one.  

 

Foles is going to be to Jacksonville what Keenum was to Denver.  A guy they over paid and wish they hadn't...except Foles will be a lot harder to trade on that contract than Keenums 2 year deal.  

 

I also think Wentz is overrated based on one small sample size of games in a single season.  Ive seen guys like JP Losman look promising for 9 games.  Heck Foles had one heck of a season early in his career too.  Wentz needs to show that he can both stay healthy and play up to that level again.  He did neither this year.  Carr looked like the next big QB and now look at him, people don't even know if he will be on the Raiders next year officially or not.  

 

Wentz is obviously a guy who has the potential to be a very good or better QB, he has shown that.  But can he get back to that level and can he stay healthy are definitely question marks.  But he is routinely talked about as if he is just already a yearly MVP candidate type QB, which right now he is not.  

 

I am as far from a Wentz defender as you can get. I think the hype outstrips the production. I was the guy after their rookie years saying you won't believe it but on tape there is not much between Wentz and Goff. People get carried away with narrative. I think it applies equally to saviour Foles as to franchise Wentz though. Neither are "the truth" to me and I'd always rather ride with the younger guy as Philly have done. 

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Wait....consecutive??

 

Alpha will have given Losman the benefit of the doubt cos he was the Bills QB. I never bought Losman. Not for a single minute. I might be guilty as charged on Fitz and Trent but I never bought Losman. He sucked. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am as far from a Wentz defender as you can get. I think the hype outstrips the production. I was the guy after their rookie years saying you won't believe it but on tape there is not much between Wentz and Goff. People get carried away with narrative. I think it applies equally to saviour Foles as to franchise Wentz though. Neither are "the truth" to me and I'd always rather ride with the younger guy as Philly have done. 

 

Alpha will have given Losman the benefit of the doubt cos he was the Bills QB. I never bought Losman. Not for a single minute. I might be guilty as charged on Fitz and Trent but I never bought Losman. He sucked. 

 

 

He truly did.  

 

Fitz is the anti-Losman in every single valuable way.

[Patrick Duffy]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah was definitely referencing young Big Ben where mobility, at least running, was still a large part of his game.  And for sure, Allen has a ways to go still in being decisive and reading defenses.  This is where he will need to improve the most at (like all Rookie QB's) for him to take that big step this year.  Being the unquestioned starter and getting all the reps this year and off season workouts will go a long way in helping him figure that out though.  The upgraded OL will help a lot too.

 

This is absolutely correct. Some may not realize how much of a difference getting ALL the reps and not splitting them up with 2 other QBs or 1 other QB. It really will go a long way in JA's development. With that and an improved OL that was so desperately needed, I am very encouraged and excited about how much he can improve this upcoming season.

 

Am very optimistic and looking forward to watching him develop and hopefully turn into the QB we all hope/know he can be for the Bills, and for the next 15 years or more.

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In what way don't you think Cam is that type of passer? I have made the Big Ben comparison with Allen before too (Elway and Young are before my time) but I don't think Ben and Cam are that different as passers. They are both guys who play outside of the pocket as much as (and maybe better than) they play inside it, they are both much more comfortable pushing it down the field than taking the checkdown and they both gave good arms. However, neither are precision passers. Cam isn't and Ben has never been either. He is accurate enough to succeed in the NFL but he wasn't a precision passer coming out and has never been one in the league. 

 

The differences between Cam and Ben for me are that Cam is a better athlete than Ben ever was and Ben is a better clutch player than Cam ever will be. It is essentially athletics v leadership. But in terms of mechanics of how they play as passers I think they have a lot in common. 

 

I think Allen has some things in common with both. 

 

Like I said, there are similarities.  But as to the type of passer, I don't see the same projection.  Cam is not an instinctive passer or even a natural passer.  Big Ben is more of a field general and more or a cerebral player, which is why like you said he is more clutch.  Cam to me is more that guy who relies more on his athleticism and physical gifts.  Cam is like RG3 with the body to hold up and play that way.  Nothing wrong with that, and Cam is a talented QB in the NFL, so I don't mean that as disrespect to him.  And if Allen turned out to be Cam 2.0 we would be doing pretty good still.  

 

But, the main difference is that those other guys are more true QB's who also had the ability to beat you with their legs.  Allen has all the tools of Cam physically, but Allen has that poise and cerebral pocket presence that you really cant teach.  There are other intangibles too, like who he is as a leader already and how hard he studies and works on the mental side of the game.  With Cam that feels more forced than natural.  

I just don't see Cam's style when I watch Allen play.  I grew up watching Young and Elway and I see a lot of them in Allen, but scary thought is that Allen has more arm talent and running talent than even they did.  He has a long way to go to really draw those comparisons still, or even the Cam comparison.  But I am talking how he projects if he reaches his potential.  

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Wait....consecutive??

 

Ha, yeah he had that like that 9 game stretch or something that one year.  When he had for instance that game with two 83 yard TD's to #83 Lee Evans against the Texans and stuff.  He melted like butter the following season until he reemerged as a hot QB candidate at age 38 this year hahaha

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am as far from a Wentz defender as you can get. I think the hype outstrips the production. I was the guy after their rookie years saying you won't believe it but on tape there is not much between Wentz and Goff. People get carried away with narrative. I think it applies equally to saviour Foles as to franchise Wentz though. Neither are "the truth" to me and I'd always rather ride with the younger guy as Philly have done. 

 

Alpha will have given Losman the benefit of the doubt cos he was the Bills QB. I never bought Losman. Not for a single minute. I might be guilty as charged on Fitz and Trent but I never bought Losman. He sucked. 

 

Ha, I was being a bit sarcastic on Losman...but he did have a brief promising stretch to end one season.  I was never a fan of the pick nor of his.  I did have some hope during that one stretch though that he would prove me wrong.

 

I kept telling everyone Trent stunk and Fitz stunk though...never once got on those trains.  Couldn't believe how some people were thinking they were good.  Lots of arguments back in those days lol.  

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, there are similarities.  But as to the type of passer, I don't see the same projection.  Cam is not an instinctive passer or even a natural passer.  Big Ben is more of a field general and more or a cerebral player, which is why like you said he is more clutch.  Cam to me is more that guy who relies more on his athleticism and physical gifts.  Cam is like RG3 with the body to hold up and play that way.  Nothing wrong with that, and Cam is a talented QB in the NFL, so I don't mean that as disrespect to him.  And if Allen turned out to be Cam 2.0 we would be doing pretty good still.  

 

But, the main difference is that those other guys are more true QB's who also had the ability to beat you with their legs.  Allen has all the tools of Cam physically, but Allen has that poise and cerebral pocket presence that you really cant teach.  There are other intangibles too, like who he is as a leader already and how hard he studies and works on the mental side of the game.  With Cam that feels more forced than natural.  

I just don't see Cam's style when I watch Allen play.  I grew up watching Young and Elway and I see a lot of them in Allen, but scary thought is that Allen has more arm talent and running talent than even they did.  He has a long way to go to really draw those comparisons still, or even the Cam comparison.  But I am talking how he projects if he reaches his potential.  

 

Ha, yeah he had that like that 9 game stretch or something that one year.  When he had for instance that game with two 83 yard TD's to #83 Lee Evans against the Texans and stuff.  He melted like butter the following season until he reemerged as a hot QB candidate at age 38 this year hahaha

 

Okay. I disagree with you on Cam. I think you undersell him. I don't think Cam is anything like RGIII at all. I think that is insulting to him. I think Cam is much closer to Ben in style as a passer - though I don't think he is as mentally strong as Ben. 

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ha, I was being a bit sarcastic on Losman...but he did have a brief promising stretch to end one season.  I was never a fan of the pick nor of his.  I did have some hope during that one stretch though that he would prove me wrong.

 

I kept telling everyone Trent stunk and Fitz stunk though...never once got on those trains.  Couldn't believe how some people were thinking they were good.  Lots of arguments back in those days lol.  

 

 

Well Fitz and Trent were both better than JP. JP was totally useless except being able to chuck it miles. 

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Okay. I disagree with you on Cam. I think you undersell him. I don't think Cam is anything like RGIII at all. I think that is insulting to him. I think Cam is much closer to Ben in style as a passer - though I don't think he is as mentally strong as Ben. 

 

Well Fitz and Trent were both better than JP. JP was totally useless except being able to chuck it miles. 

 

Like I said, I hated all 3.

 

If you go back and watch RG3 as a rookie, before he sucked, thats the RG3 I was talking about.  He was another guy where the cerebral part of the game just didnt come natural and relied too much on his athletic ability.  Thats mainly what I was referencing.  However, that caught up more with RG3 when he lost some of the athletic ability due to injuries and Cam has been able to stay healthy and grow as a QB more.  

 

And like I said, I still think Cam is a good QB.  If Josh is Cam 2.0 when its all said and done, we should have a fun ride still.  But I do not see Cams game at all in Allen.  All the comparisons are surface stuff and don't factor how he projects to develop.  But like you said, you didnt watch Young and Elway, so understandable you don't see that in his game.  We can both agree that Big Ben is a favorable comparison.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, I hated all 3.

 

If you go back and watch RG3 as a rookie, before he sucked, thats the RG3 I was talking about.  He was another guy where the cerebral part of the game just didnt come natural and relied too much on his athletic ability.  Thats mainly what I was referencing.  However, that caught up more with RG3 when he lost some of the athletic ability due to injuries and Cam has been able to stay healthy and grow as a QB more.  

 

And like I said, I still think Cam is a good QB.  If Josh is Cam 2.0 when its all said and done, we should have a fun ride still.  But I do not see Cams game at all in Allen.  All the comparisons are surface stuff and don't factor how he projects to develop.  But like you said, you didnt watch Young and Elway, so understandable you don't see that in his game.  We can both agree that Big Ben is a favorable comparison.  

 

RGIII was never good. He was hidden in a good system. 

 

I maintain Cam is NOTHING like him. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

RGIII was never good. He was hidden in a good system. 

 

I maintain Cam is NOTHING like him. 

 

Lol...fine take RG3 out.  This wasn't about him.  You asked me the difference between Cam and Newton...if you feel RG3 was a bad example of the cerebral struggles with being a QB, then fine.  Makes no difference to me, could care less about RG3.  My point is still the same. 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lol...fine take RG3 out.  This wasn't about him.  You asked me the difference between Cam and Newton...if you feel RG3 was a bad example of the cerebral struggles with being a QB, then fine.  Makes no difference to me, could care less about RG3.  My point is still the same. 

 

I still think you are wrong on Cam. I think Cam is much closer to Ben and Josh Allen as a passer than you do. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I still think you are wrong on Cam. I think Cam is much closer to Ben and Josh Allen as a passer than you do. 

 

All good.  I agree on Ben, but I definitely see it different on the comparison to Cam.  

[Matt_In_NH]

When a qb has a bad first season you can always find examples of guys with similar rookie stats that turned into studs.  The problem with that is qbs almost always have bad stats their first year.    So you ignored the numerous  examples of guys with similar poor stats that busted out.  

 

Trent Edwards stats were nearly identical to drew brees.  Remember how that worked out?   

 

I am not saying josh will bust out but this comparison does not have much value in predicting that.