Rams & Chiefs Offensive Lines

[Tenhigh]

17 hours ago, OJ Tom said:

 

Just last week this board was abuzz with O-line envy for the Colts! 

The pig in the straw house is going to be envious of the the pig in the brick house AND the pig in the stick house.

[Doc]

24 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Lewis was averaging over 1000 yards per (over 5 seasons) when he showed up to Cleveland.  Joe T didn't make him a 1000 yrd rusher.  And he was done in less than 3 seasons in Cleveland. 

 

And 9 years after Lewis left the league, AP is still a 1000 yards rusher....and that was running behind Tarvares Jackson, Gus Frerotte, Favre, Ponder, Cassel, and Teddy Bridgewater!  So, yeah, my point is that Cleveland's offense would have been far better off with AP than Joe Thomas--is that even a serious question?

 

You realize that Lewis had Jonathan Ogden and a good OL blocking for him in Baltimore, right? 

 

And what about the past 2 seasons?  How did he suddenly find the fountain of youth?  Come on, even you know the answer.

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

You realize that Lewis had Jonathan Ogden and a good OL blocking for him in Baltimore, right? 

 

And what about the past 2 seasons?  How did he suddenly find the fountain of youth?  Come on, even you know the answer.

 

I don't know what Lewis has been up to the past 2 seasons.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

I don't know what Lewis has been up to the past 2 seasons.

 

Nice feint.

[BillsMafia13]

18 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

What did he do for the Browns offense (say, over AP)?

 

if they instead picked the worst LT in the draft,  what would have been the difference 

Awful take and incredible reach.  What is your point here anyways, that oline doesnt matter?  Because Thomas is literally the only good player  (sans Hayden, Schwartz, Mack) that has been even marginally worth while this century.  All those other skill positions and qbs did them nothing but you're knocking arguably the greatest LT of all time? Have you ever seen a football game before?

Edited January 14, 2019 by BillsMafia13

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Nice feint.

 

Fill me in

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

It shouldn't be that  hard to understand.  They picked a player who had a nice career....but one  that had no impact whatsoever on the fortunes of the offense (see above).  They passed on a player that absolutely would have.  Simple.

Of course your position is hard to understand because it makes little sense.  The player the Browns selected turned out to be a perennial all-star. How is that a bad pick? He didn't make a tremendous difference through no fault of his own. When you play for a historically dysfunctional organization no one player is going to significantly affect the fortunes of such a grotesque organization. Even a good qb is going to be drowned out in such a swamp of organizational chaos. 

 

The fact that Thomas was able to be recognized throughout his career as one of the best OTs in the game while playing for such a iconoclastically bad franchise demonstrates how good a player he was. If the Bills could draft an offensive lineman half as good as he was most of us would be ecstatic. Although I'm sure you would still cling to your very minority position that the LT position is not an important position. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Awful take and incredible reach.  What is your point here anyways, that oline doesnt matter?  Because Thomas is literally the only good player  (sans Hayden, Schwartz, Mack) that has been even marginally worth while this century.  All those other skill positions and qbs did them nothing but you're knocking arguably the greatest LT of all time? Have you ever seen a football game before?

 

Wow!  Talk about a reach!! 

 

"Anyways", of course O-line matters.  If you have at all been paying attention, I've said that you don't blow a top 10 pick on O-line when you need to stock your team with playmakers. 

 

Yes, when you top draftee "of the century" is a LT, then you have a history of really bad drafts--including the one where you took that LT instead of the greatest and most durable RB of the century.

 

And nowhere did I "knock" Thomas (at least make up better arguments, can't you?).  I'm knocking the pick.  HOF LT....but, in the end, so what?  That's nice for Thomas.  Didn't work out as well for all of the QBs behind that line as the years went by (19 to 66 sacks, ouch).

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Of course your position is hard to understand because it makes little sense.  The player the Browns selected turned out to be a perennial all-star. How is that a bad pick? He didn't make a tremendous difference through no fault of his own. When you play for a historically dysfunctional organization no one player is going to significantly affect the fortunes of such a grotesque organization. Even a good qb is going to be drowned out in such a swamp of organizational chaos. 

 

The fact that Thomas was able to be recognized throughout his career as one of the best OTs in the game while playing for such a iconoclastically bad franchise demonstrates how good a player he was. If the Bills could draft an offensive lineman half as good as he was most of us would be ecstatic. Although I'm sure you would still cling to your very minority position that the LT position is not an important position. 

 

 

An all star at a position that, ultimately didn't matter.  In other words, had they went with any other LT, the results would have been the same.

 

Again (and again), my "position" is not that LT "is not important".  It's one piece of an ensemble that collectively protects the QB (and run blocks)....or it does not. 

 

I'm not sure how else to explain it to you and others--especially since you keep mischaracterizing what I have actually said (over and over...).

Edited January 14, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[BillsMafia13]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Wow!  Talk about a reach!! 

 

Of course O-line matters.  If you have at all been paying attention, I've said that you don't blow a top 10 pick on O-line when you need to stock your team with playmakers. 

 

Yes, when you top draftee "of the century" is a LT, then you have a history of really bad drafts--including the one where you took that LT instead of the greatest and most durable RB of the century.

 

And nowhere did I "knock" Thomas (at least make up better arguments, can't you?).  I'm knocking the pick.  HOF LT....but, in the end, so what?  That's nice for Thomas.  Didn't work out as well for all of the QBs behind that line as the years went by (19 to 66 sacks, ouch).

No I was genuinely asking what your point was, not taking a shot at you.  You basically are saying JT added no value to the team, even though he was the only good player on an awful team for decades. This is even more impressive considering the browns were trash for 20 years, and all those other skill position impact players accounted for 0 impact in any way. At least Thomas moved the needle and gave the fans something to cheer for.  Im so flabbergasted by this because, even though you say you're not knocking JT, you choose HIM as an example why not to draft OL high.  Like his "lack of impact" was the reason the browns were terrible.  Awful take and awful reasoning, credibility just plummeted to 0

   If you're hypothetical point is that AP would have been more valuable you're hitting negative credibility.  Fantasy hindsight to support a terrible take 

Edited January 14, 2019 by BillsMafia13

[formerlyofCtown]

19 hours ago, hemma said:

Look through the list of FAs on Spotrac and Beane could probably fix the OL just from FAs, but he’d need to be willing to spend and brace for whining about ‘overspending’.  

I’d be ok with overspend.  Just get the OL mess behind us and move forward, quickly.

Our problem with FAs is going to be Indy.  They are already good and have a ton of cap space.  Where would you want to go.

Edited January 14, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, BillsMafia13 said:

No I was genuinely asking what your point was, not taking a shot at you.  You basically are saying JT added no value to the team, even though he was the only good player on an awful team for decades. This is even more impressive considering the browns were trash for 20 years, and all those other skill position impact players accounted for 0 impact in any way. At least Thomas moved the needle and gave the fans something to cheer for.  Im so flabbergasted by this because, even though you say you're not knocking JT, you choose HIM as an example why not to draft OL high.  Like his "lack of impact" was the reason the browns were terrible.  Awful take and awful reasoning, credibility just plummeted to 0

 

 

Ok there you go!  They could cheer for that LT.  You could hear them in the stands I bet:  "go Joe!  Cover that blind side and force the D to sack the QB from the other side!".

 

And I've given other examples of this in the past (Dolphins picked Jake Long over Matt Ryan!).

 

The last sentence I bolded: no, I'm not saying that either (you're struggling with this I can see!).  The reason the Browns were terrible is that they drafted poorly.  No LT can have the impact that a guy like AP can have.  Or Matt Ryan.  It's just that simple. 

 

So, before you make up another opinion of mine to argue against, I'll say this:  Joe Thomas was the greatest LT of all time and will forever remain so, as far as anyone can actually tell.

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

An all star at a position that, ultimately didn't matter.  In other words, had they went with any other LT, the results would have been the same.

 

Again (and again), my "position" is not that LT "is not important".  It's one piece of an ensemble that collectively protects the QB (and run blocks)....or it does not. 

 

I'm not sure how else to explain it to you and others--especially since you keep mischaracterizing what I have actually said (over and over...).

I'm not mischaracterizing your position. I know exactly what it is. It is your position that I strenuously disagree with. If you want to characterize the LT position as part of being an ensemble I'm not going to argue with that although there are blockers who are good enough to go one on one against the best rushers without aid from other blockers. That makes a big difference. And Thomas was that type of player. The fallacy of your position is that all positions are part of an ensemble in that if the other parts don't fulfill their roles they are diminished as players. This is football, a team sport,  and not boxing. 

 

The core of my disagreement here is that I believe the LT position is an important position. You think much less so. There are others who think it is a waste of time to highly draft CBs. I also believe that it is an important position.  We simply have a fundamental disagreement on this issue that won't be reconciled. What I can tell you is that if the Bills were fortunate enough to draft a LT almost as good as Thomas I would be ecstatic while you would probably be morose. 

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not mischaracterizing your position. I know exactly what it is. It is your position that I strenuously disagree with. If you want to characterize the LT position as part of being an ensemble I'm not going to argue with that although there are blockers who are good enough to go one on one against the best rushers without aid from other blockers. That makes a big difference. And Thomas was that type of player. The fallacy of your position is that all positions are part of an ensemble in that if the other parts don't fulfill their roles they are diminished as players. This is football, a team sport,  and not boxing. 

 

The core of my disagreement here is that I believe the LT position is an important position. You think much less so. There are others who think it is a waste of time to highly draft CBs. I also believe that it is an important position.  We simply have a fundamental disagreement on this issue that won't be reconciled. What I can tell you is that if the Bills were fortunate enough to draft a LT almost as good as Thomas I would be ecstatic while you would probably be morose. 

 

 

Would you this Spring draft an LT almost as good as Thomas over a RB almost as good as AP?  I need an honest answer.

 

If you say Thomas then you believe that the best LT ever is more valuable and has a greater impact on an offense than perhaps the greatest RB has on that same offense.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[JohnC]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Would you draft an LT as good as Thomas over a RB almost as good as AP?  I need an honest answer.

For the Bills with the current decrepit state of our OL? Of course I would take a premier LT with the ability to get a good back with another pick. Whether you are talking about AP in his prime or decline having a good line allows his talents to be exhibited. 

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

For the Bills with the current decrepit state of our OL? Of course I would take a premier LT with the ability to get a good back with another pick. Whether you are talking about AP in his prime or decline having a good line allows his talents to be exhibited. 

 

 

I'm talking about drafting players. Not about players in "decline". 

 

Which player would have a greater impact on a struggling Offense, drafting the best LT ever or the best RB perhaps ever?

 

For most of his time in Mniiy, AP WAS the offense.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

AP has been in the league for 11 seasons.  He's made the post-season 4 times (all others were non-winning seasons), all with the Vikings, and they lost in the first game 3 times.  Never mind that he's a child beater, eh WEO? 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm talking about drafting players. Not about players in "decline". 

 

Which player would have a greater impact on a struggling Offense, drafting the best LT ever or the best RB perhaps ever?

I suggest you more carefully reread what I wrote. I said considering how bad our current OL is I would take the elite LT over the elite running back prospect. Whether the back is at his prime or not his talents won't be actualized playing behind such a mediocre line that we had last year. In addition,  if you want your qb to thrive and survive you need to have a quality line.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I suggest you more carefully reread what I wrote. I said considering how bad our current OL is I would take the elite LT over the elite running back prospect. Whether the back is at his prime or not his talents won't be actualized playing behind such a mediocre line that we had last year. In addition,  if you want your qb to thrive and survive you need to have a quality line.  

 

 

AP didn't have the best line in the NFL in Minn.  He made that team relevant the whole time he was there.  Check the roster of QBs he ran past every week, every year. 

 

A guy like AP, unlike other backs on the roster, doesn't need "elite LTs" to rack up the yards.  He's far more unique in what he brings at RB than the best LTs compared to others at their position.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

AP didn't have the best line in the NFL in Minn.  He made that team relevant the whole time he was there.  Check the roster of QBs he ran past every week, every year. 

 

A guy like AP, unlike other backs on the roster, doesn't need "elite LTs" to rack up the yards.  He's far more unique in what he brings at RB than the best LTs compared to others at their position.

Our most valuable asset is our young qb. The state of our line is untenable. We can get a good RB with another pick. The priority for this offseason is to dramatically upgrade the line. 

 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, JohnC said:

Our most valuable asset is our young qb. The state of our line is untenable. We can get a good RB with another pick. The priority for this offseason is to dramatically upgrade the line. 

 

 

 

I haven't seen anyone post otherwise.