Barkley should start and lose or keep the job. Nuance, emotion, morale are important.

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

WTH?!? None of this makes a bit of sense.  The fans who have any sense at all are rooting for Allen to succeed and understand he's the future.  The team isn't factoring any of this into the decision and they should be gone if they do. 

 

What part of what I said do you not understand?

 

What % of an NFL stadium nowadays would you say consists of fans with sense?

 

Why are you turning green?

Edited November 18, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

What part of what I said do you not understand?

 

What % of an NFL stadium nowadays would you say consists of fans with sense?

 

Why are you turning green?

 

You're bringing up things that have no bearing on the team's decision of who will start at QB.  It's meaningless.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You're bringing up things that have no bearing on the team's decision of who will start at QB.  It's meaningless.

 

I think you're being naive if you don't think McDermott is heavily weighing all options and considering reasons for them here.

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think you're being naive if you don't think McDermott is heavily weighing all options and considering reasons for them here.

 

Allen will be the starter as he already said.  Nothing to weigh or ponder. 

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

While it is true that the brain is still developing into early adulthood, there is no scientific evidence indicating a specific point of maturity, from cognitive or behavioral perspectives at the general population level, much less applied to any given individual. Also, what sources to you have to substantiate it is the "biggest underlying reason" for the argument that rookies should sit? 

 

No sources, just logic, and an understanding of cognitive development based on professional research and the experience of 15+ years of experience working with teens and young adults 7 or 8 hours a day every day of the week.

 

That's why I prefaced what I said with "probably," which you conveniently left out.

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Allen will be the starter as he already said.  Nothing to weigh or ponder. 

 

At some point in the very near future, absolutely.

 

Might be this week.

 

Might not be.

 

Got things to ponder... maybe the most relevant and important thing is what happened today to another QB

 

[26CornerBlitz]

6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No sources, just logic, and an understanding of cognitive development based on professional research and the experience of 15+ years of experience working with teens and young adults 7 or 8 hours a day every day of the week.

 

That's why I prefaced what I said with "probably," which you conveniently left out.

 

At some point in the very near future, absolutely.

 

Might be this week.

 

Might not be.

 

Got things to ponder... maybe the most relevant and important thing is what happened today to another QB

 

 

The team already took precautions by holding him out in week 10. 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

So #1 he almost came back against the Jets seems fairly certain he'll be healthy for the Jags. Other than that it's kind of hard to debate something we don't actually know the specifics of.

 

#2 he only got injured off a pretty bad hit and like you said the line has been improving as the year goes on. If they were willing to put him out there with how it was before I can't see how they wouldn't be willing to do that now.

 

#3 They're not going to wait for them to have a better roster for him to play. He has to play with what's around him this year and all the years that follow to be a franchise QB.

 

#4 He's got both of them their to give him advice and he's got to go out there and try it himself and when's a better time to learn than the last games of a bad season.

 

#5 It doesn't matter who the QB is if they lose 1 more game they're completely eliminated and have to play the rest of the games knowing that. Also I don't think it's really all the clear that Barkley gives them a much better chance than Allen, they'll be fine. Hell McDermott didn't lose the locker room and he put Peterman out there I doubt putting Allen out there would be worse than that.

 

#1- Look at what happened to Marcus Mariota today

 

#2- The line hasn't been improving throughout the whole year, mainly the last couple weeks. They were willing to put him out there because their jobs wouldn't have survived keeping Peterman in for the whole season.

 

#3- Again, look at ALL of their actions leading up to the season. They didn't want Allen to start right away. Even Beane acknowledged publicly he mismanaged the QB position. 

 

#4- I don't entirely disagree. I think you believe I want Allen to sit the rest of the year. Look at my very first post in this thread.

 

#5- You're right. One more loss and we're completely eliminated. Whoever plays QB when we get that loss will wind up shouldering a ton of blame; as the old adage that "QBs get too much credit and too much blame" goes.

2 hours ago, Skins Malone said:

I still see you just talking about boos.  J/k. The injury did worry me also.  Simply because the thing about Allen is his arm strength and arm talent.  Hopefully all is well tho.

 

I'm just not sure about the players thinking that.  I think they understand getting Allen playing time is important for the future.

 

And I doubt Kyle and Lorax were convinced to come back for one more season in order to lose games and help a young QB grow.

 

And then there's the ever-moody Shady.

 

Those are 3 guys McDermott considers as part of his "leadership counsel" or whatever. 

[transplantbillsfan]

14 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The team already took precautions by holding him out in week 10. 

 

That doesn't mean it is fully healed or that he won't risk further injury.

 

Allen is our future. His injury is to the same ligament that, if made worse, could require a surgery that would take more than a year to recover from. If he's listed as "full participant" tomorrow, I'll expect the team doctor's said there's absolutely no risk of making that injury worse.

 

If that risk still exists, Allen will be limited and him starting in one week is very much rightfully in doubt.

[Skins Malone]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

#1- Look at what happened to Marcus Mariota today

 

#2- The line hasn't been improving throughout the whole year, mainly the last couple weeks. They were willing to put him out there because their jobs wouldn't have survived keeping Peterman in for the whole season.

 

#3- Again, look at ALL of their actions leading up to the season. They didn't want Allen to start right away. Even Beane acknowledged publicly he mismanaged the QB position. 

 

#4- I don't entirely disagree. I think you believe I want Allen to sit the rest of the year. Look at my very first post in this thread.

 

#5- You're right. One more loss and we're completely eliminated. Whoever plays QB when we get that loss will wind up shouldering a ton of blame; as the old adage that "QBs get too much credit and too much blame" goes.

 

And I doubt Kyle and Lorax were convinced to come back for one more season in order to lose games and help a young QB grow.

 

And then there's the ever-moody Shady.

 

Those are 3 guys McDermott considers as part of his "leadership counsel" or whatever. 

U maybe right but that's the business of football.  You draft a QB high and hes your future.  That's who you are invested in.  And we do have to remember Allen was the starter when he got hurt.  Barkley only played one game.  I just think people are really overreacting to one game.  Dont get wrong it was exciting.  But there was alot more then just Barkley...the o line played well...Foster and the rest of the recievers were getting seperation... that opened up the run game...it all wasnt just Matt Barkley.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Skins Malone

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

That doesn't mean it is fully healed or that he won't risk further injury.

 

Allen is our future. His injury is to the same ligament that, if made worse, could require a surgery that would take more than a year to recover from. If he's listed as "full participant" tomorrow, I'll expect the team doctor's said there's absolutely no risk of making that injury worse.

 

If that risk still exists, Allen will be limited and him starting in one week is very much rightfully in doubt.

 

They know the situation very well with plenty of discussion with the medical staff. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

They know the situation very well with plenty of discussion with the medical staff. 

 

Right, which is the reason McDermott's "if healthy" add-on at the end of Monday's PC was noteworthy.

1 hour ago, Skins Malone said:

U maybe right but that's the business of football.  You draft a QB high and hes your future.  That's who you are invested in.  And we do have to remember Allen was the starter when he got hurt.  Barkley only played one game.  I just think people are really overreacting to one game.  Dont get wrong it was exciting.  But there was alot more then just Barkley...the o line played well...Foster and the rest of the recievers were getting seperation... that opened up the run game...it all wasnt just Matt Barkley.

 

Very true.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Right, which is the reason McDermott's "if healthy" add-on at the end of Monday's PC was noteworthy.

 

That's a given and the only reason why he would not start.

[Skins Malone]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Right, which is the reason McDermott's "if healthy" add-on at the end of Monday's PC was noteworthy.

 

Very true.

I think you have already answered this but...so do you think Barkley should start cause he gives you a better chance to win or because your worried about the health and well being of Allen? And I apologize if I was a little rude in my earlier posts...I guess all the Barkley talk got to me.

 

And if we sit Allen and Barkley plays decent what do we then do next year?  Eventually you have to get this kid on the field imo.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Skins Malone

[Domdab99]

and another Bills fan who doesn't have a clue...it's like you guys breed 'em on this site

[billsfan1959]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No sources, just logic, and an understanding of cognitive development based on professional research and the experience of 15+ years of experience working with teens and young adults 7 or 8 hours a day every day of the week.

 

That's why I prefaced what I said with "probably," which you conveniently left out.

 

At some point in the very near future, absolutely.

 

Might be this week.

 

Might not be.

 

Got things to ponder... maybe the most relevant and important thing is what happened today to another QB

 

Quite a bit of experience in the area of cognitive development myself, as well as human behavior. I stand by what I said. There is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, that says Allen isn't cognitively mature enough to be on the field - and I seriously doubt that is the primary reason coaches sit rookies. 

[transplantbillsfan]

23 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

 

I think you have already answered this but...so do you think Barkley should start cause he gives you a better chance to win or because your worried about the health and well being of Allen? And I apologize if I was a little rude in my earlier posts...I guess all the Barkley talk got to me.

 

And if we sit Allen and Barkley plays decent what do we then do next year?  Eventually you have to get this kid on the field imo.

 

Okay, just to clear things up, this was my very 1st post in this thread 

On 11/17/2018 at 1:01 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

I generally agree with you while understanding and being fine with the route of Allen starting.

 

I still think Barkley is pretty likely to start against the Jags, anyway. Remember that McDermott said "if healthy." That elbow injury is a tricky and unique injury for a QB and I could absolutely see us erring on the side of caution... or even using the injury as an excuse for 1 more game for all the reasons you stated.

 

But then what happens if Barkley lights it up 1 more week?

 

He gets another week?

 

And then another?

 

And then another?

 

And what happens if he has 3 really good games after the bye and 1 absolute stinker?

 

Do we stick with him again?

 

If so, what if he has another stinker?

 

I like Barkley. I wanted to draft him out of college. But the simple fact is that we're too invested in Allen, so allowing Barkley to go out there and have a series of good to great games might be a bad idea for the simple reason that it's incredibly short-sighted--and it feels awkward for me to say that because I'm all about "best chance to win" and everything. We cut Peterman, so while perhaps Barkley is our best chance to win RIGHT NOW (and possibly not... gotta wonder the impact of the fact that the Jets preparation was entirely for Allen), trotting Allen onto the field won't give the appearance us us actively trying to lose the way it did with Peterman.

 

And I think Allen's development happens best and quickest on the field, anyway.

 

Stow Barkley away on the team as a long term backup ASAP. If Allen turns into a bust, give Barkley his shot then. Not now. There's almost no point in doing it now and it might even be detrimental to our efforts to retain him as a long term backup.

 

The primary reason Allen wouldn't start is because of worry about his injury. But Allen's injury risk is compounded by his inexperience, which so far this season has caused him to hold onto the football longer than he should and take more unnecessary hits than he should have.

 

I want to see Allen play and get experience, but I don't want to see him get hurt. And I'm quite sure McDermott is very aware of that injury, as well.

 

But if Barkley just sucked against the Jets, the pressure to put Allen in quickly would be even greater. This year has been one big experiment for the coach and GM at the QB position. Allen maybe could have played against the Jets, but the QB experiment continued with Barkley and, for the first time this season, it was successful.

 

That, in conjunction with the injury, is, I'm sure, being weighed heavily here, despite what some here might think.

[Skins Malone]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Okay, just to clear things up, this was my very 1st post in this thread 

 

The primary reason Allen wouldn't start is because of worry about his injury. But Allen's injury risk is compounded by his inexperience, which so far this season has caused him to hold onto the football longer than he should and take more unnecessary hits than he should have.

 

I want to see Allen play and get experience, but I don't want to see him get hurt. And I'm quite sure McDermott is very aware of that injury, as well.

 

But if Barkley just sucked against the Jets, the pressure to put Allen in quickly would be even greater. This year has been one big experiment for the coach and GM at the QB position. Allen maybe could have played against the Jets, but the QB experiment continued with Barkley and, for the first time this season, it was successful.

 

That, in conjunction with the injury, is, I'm sure, being weighed heavily here, despite what some here might think.

Okay I see where your coming from.  I agree he had a better game numbers wise then Allen but Allen in the Vikings game also was great.  My issue with Barkley is yes he will give you numbers but his TD to INT ratio is terrible.  That's my hang up with him.  Because our QB situation has been so horrible over the years I think Bill's fans sometimes want to turn somebody into something there not.  Barkley has been given chances but hasn't capitalized on them long term.

[Luka]

These guys play for Allen. Allen is the future, that much is established and you have to treat this like he's the starter. That's what he was drafted for.

[Dadonkadonk]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:07 PM, BadLandsMeanie said:

This is a weakness for McDermott that shows up repeatedly. 

 

He should start Barkely because the Bills kicked butt behind Barkely. It is that simple.

 

Barkely should be able to prove it was either a fluke, or not. The team deserves that.

 

Instead they will start Allen for no other reason other than they drafted him.

 

How is the team supposed to be positive and stoked when they know they finally had a tremendous victory and in response the coaches pulled the starting QB?

 

What if Allen does the most likely thing, and struggles? What if it is so bad they have to pull him? Then he is behind the 8 ball if you ask me. They are risking that for no good enough reason.

 

This staff paints themselves into corners where the only possible non-disaster outcome is that their plan goes exactly the way they envision.

 

So lets hope Allen does great because if he doesn't we will have a better playing QB sitting on the bench just because the coach says so.

 

And the team and us fans will never know for sure if Barkley was a fluke or not.

 

If Barkely starts and does great, then there is no down side. If he starts and flops, then we have Allen and we put him in next time. The only down side this way is that Allen loses a game of practice.

 

If Allen starts and does great it will be the first time, and it will be great. But it is unlikely. And if he starts and flops badly then you have all kinds of trouble. 

 

The decision is easy and as usual with the QB spot  the coaching staff  made the wrong one.

 

 

 

Sorry but you are wrong about everything.  The team knows what the future is.  They know who is the most talented QB on the roster.  They know every snap is on film and if they want a future in the NFL they have to play every snap.  The future is Allen.  Barkley is a journeyman QB just like Fitz. He might give you a game or two of adequate play.  And that is all he did - play adequately.  The Jets dropped two INTs which would have made the game decidedly different.

The decision is easy. Once they moved on from TT and lost Wood/Incgonito, this season win/loss record was immaterial.  It was and is all about Allen and to a lesser extent the other young players. 

Sit back and watch the future unfold. Allen will either play well or he won't and we won't know until the end of 2019 if he is the real deal or not.

[simpleman]

14 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Yeah sure.  That should be the priority over your franchise QB. 

Just because a player is drafted so high,  and costs an obscene amount of draft and player capital to possibly be a franchise QB, does not automatically make him a franchise QB.

He was admittedly considered a project QB by the team. And according to the "process" was suppose to sit and learn, practice and keep learning more and more until he was actually "ready" to start.

 

 Because of the team's mismanagement he was started much earlier because Peterman crashed and burned in a historically bad way. There was no "Plan B". They were forced to start him. Not because he was suddenly ready, or he "earned" the start by his astounding progress.

He showed occasional flashes, but still looked exactly like the raw rookie he was when he was drafted. His faults were not corrected and he did not show great progress in his starts.  Maybe he can be a franchise QB in time. But maybe he will never be.

 

 Throwing a QB into the game before he is ready is not in any way historically proven to make him better. More starts before he is truly ready does not magically make him better. More polishing does not automatically make everything shinier.  If he is not ready to shine yet, he will not shine no matter how many times you polish him.  He needs to be ready first.

 

 No matter how badly you want him to be your savior, no matter how desperately McBeane wants him to be their savior does not make him THE savior.

 

 The fact is that Barkley made the Bills offense look the best they have in years in his first game with the Bills, with minimal practice and preparation. They just clicked. Allen did not do that. There are plenty of games left this year to give the Bills and Barkley another game to see if it was just a fluke, or if it was real chemistry. If Allen truly is the true savior everyone wants to believe he is, one less game among many in an otherwise meaningless season will not suddenly evaporate his savior-hood.

 

If you truly are a believer in "the process" that a player earns his starts by his actions and his play, how has Barkley not earned the right to show whether his play with this Bills team in a live game that counts was just a fluke, or  that he actually has the chemistry and the skills to continue to start and win?