FBI Raids Office of Trump Lawyer Michael Cohen

[TakeYouToTasker]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Are you aware of the concept of admissible evidence? Are you aware that attorney-client communications can be made admissible evidence if they are discussing crimes the attorney is committing? Surprisingly the justice system doesn't leave an easy loophole wherein every attorney can make themselves immune from any and all criminal investigation.

 

Again, this raid wasn't part of the Trump/Russia investigation. It wasn't even related to Trump himself, as Mueller found it to be outside the scope of his investigation.  Also, admissible evidence applies to situations in which a lawyer conspires with his client to commit a crime.  (using the term "conspire" colloquially, not legally speaking)

 

What was achieved was to provide the FBI with decades worth of legal documents surrounding conversations between Cohen and the President, otherwise protected by attorney-client privilege.  These documents are now in the hands of those being investigated for widespread criminal malfeasance rising to the level of actual treason.  This is incredibly problematic.

11 minutes ago, garybusey said:

 

This did not happen so I will not play your stupid games in this thread. Enjoy talking about this with DR or Buffalo Gal (assuming they're not the same person).

 

It absolutely did happen.

 

You can deny it if you'd like, but that just makes you wrong.

Edited April 10, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[Buffalo_Gal]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I see that you're very eager to jump to conclusions on this. Sorry but we don't know everything yet. We don't know the exact charges being brought against Cohen, we don't know the reasoning for executing a search warrant over a subpoena, we don't know which - if any - communications between Trump and Cohen will be privileged, etc.

You seem to have missed the second half of my post that you quoted.

[Cugalabanza]

It remains to be seen whether the warrants were obtained fairly.  We simply don't know what evidence was presented.  I understand the skepticism, but it's premature to state that the intelligence apparatus/legal system is collapsing our system of justice.

 

[Warren Zevon]

Fact: The search warrant came from a US attorney appointment by President Trump

 

Fact: The search warrant was approved by a judge

 

To opine that the warrants were obtained unfairly is blatant propaganda as you do not know what evidence led to the warrant.

 

1 minute ago, Cugalabanza said:

It remains to be seen whether the warrants were obtained fairly.  We simply don't know what evidence was presented.  I understand the skepticism, but it's premature to state that the intelligence apparatus/legal system is collapsing our system of justice.

 

 

This dude gets it

Edited April 10, 2018 by garybusey

[Buffalo_Gal]

19 minutes ago, garybusey said:

 

This did not happen so I will not play your stupid games in this thread. Enjoy talking about this with DR or Buffalo Gal (assuming they're not the same person).

Ooooooh I get to have two identities here!? Awesome!

Note: I barely have time to be one profile here. I have quasi-enjoyed this thread though - some of it is out and out stupid, some of it is intelligent discussion,  and some is clear frustration on how little we know about the situation, and how it eventually impacts the state of our country, and our civil rights.

I did watch Alan Dershowitz say yesterday that they (Cohen and Trump) should be in front of a judge this morning asking the judge to take possession of all materials and have the judge decide what is attorney-client privileged information.  IOW have a judge be the layer, and not a (tainted) FBI.
 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Buffalo_Gal

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, Cugalabanza said:

It remains to be seen whether the warrants were obtained fairly.  We simply don't know what evidence was presented.  I understand the skepticism, but it's premature to state that the intelligence apparatus/legal system is collapsing our system of justice.

 

 

In light of the incredible amount of criminality and malfeasance undertaken to weaponize the US intelligence apparatus against the President in the run up to the election, something which has already been demonstrated, this development is an absolutely horrifying continuation of that trend.

 

This is not politics as usual.  This is the weaponization of the government against individuals who have set themselves, through legal processes, to rein that government in.  This is the throwing away of all pretexts of a free society and the rule of law.

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

has to be a very strong reason to break that confidentiality

 

partisan suckybaby whiny politics isn't a reason

 

 

Yes I'm sure the Republican DA who was personally interviewed and appointed by Trump authorized this search because he's a partisan hack. The Republican Director of the FBI is also in cahoots with the Democrats. Every person is secretly out to get your side, and everyone on your side is innocent of all crimes, is that how it works?

[TakeYouToTasker]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Ooooooh I get to have two identities here!? Awesome!

Note: I barely have time to be one profile here. I have quasi-enjoyed this thread though - some of it is out and out stupid, some of it is intelligent discussion,  and some is clear frustration on how little we know about the situation, and how it eventually impacts the state of our country, and our civil rights.

I did watch Alan Dershowitz say yesterday that they (Cohen and Trump) should be in front of a judge this morning asking the judge to take possession of all materials and have the judge decide what is attorney-client privileged information.  IOW have a judge be the layer, and not a (tainted) FBI.
 

Those materials have already been in the hands of bad actors for hours, and the FBI has already demonstrated that it does not feel it needs to comply with the law.  Even if ordered to turn over all materials, they would not do so, or at least would not do so in a timely manner.  All material will be copied for the purpose of being disseminated via leaks.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yes I'm sure the Republican DA who was personally interviewed and appointed by Trump authorized this search because he's a partisan hack. The Republican Director of the FBI is also in cahoots with the Democrats. Every person is secretly out to get your side, and everyone on your side is innocent of all crimes, is that how it works?

Oh come on... you have heard of Never Trumpers, right? There are several factions of the RNC and the "elites" that were "horrified" to have Trump elected have actively worked against his agenda since day 1.

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes I'm sure the Republican DA who was personally interviewed and appointed by Trump authorized this search because he's a partisan hack. The Republican Director of the FBI is also in cahoots with the Democrats. Every person is secretly out to get your side, and everyone on your side is innocent of all crimes, is that how it works?

 

row is another one who was put on ignore long ago. Much better forum without his/her/it's schtick.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

Those materials have already been in the hands of bad actors for hours, and the FBI has already demonstrated that it does not feel it needs to comply with the law.  Even if ordered to turn over all materials, they would not do so, or at least would not do so in a timely manner.  All material will be copied for the purpose of being disseminated via leaks.

I agree with this.

[TakeYouToTasker]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes I'm sure the Republican DA who was personally interviewed and appointed by Trump authorized this search because he's a partisan hack. The Republican Director of the FBI is also in cahoots with the Democrats. Every person is secretly out to get your side, and everyone on your side is innocent of all crimes, is that how it works?

This is not about Republicans and Democrats.

 

This is about a system rigged to the benefit of global elites across both parties and internationally who are all part of the same club, and use political division as a tool to enrich themselves.

[Cugalabanza]

3 minutes ago, garybusey said:

 

row is another one who was put on ignore long ago. Much better forum without his/her/it's schtick.

 

He does tend to advocate for the Coco Puffs with excessive zeal.

 

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

This is about a system rigged to the benefit of global elites across both parties and internationally who are all part of the same club, and use political division as a tool to enrich themselves.

 

This did not happen. You're either living in La La land or Trump is your Mom.

[Tiberius]

36 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Again, I ask you, is it problematic that the FBI has performed an end run around attorney-client privilege, a necessary hallmark of our entire system of jurisprudence, in order to gain access to information about a person investigating/prosecuting wide spread malfeasance and corruption in that agency?

 

Is this something the intelligence apparatus of a free country should be doing?

 

This answer is why there will be an actual shooting war in this country.

 

You are, quite literally, dismissing people posing legitimate concerns about the intelligence apparatus/legal system of our nation launching end runs around the basic legal protections that the entire notion of a free country rests upon as cry babies.

 

This cannot stand, Gary.  This is not clever.  This is the collapse of our system.  This is where desperation sets in.

Between who and who? 

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, garybusey said:

 

This did not happen. You're either living in La La land or Trump is your Mom.

You don't believe we have a system of neo-mercantilist cronyism designed to extract the wealth of the 99% to the benefit of the global elite through their ownership of the global financing mechanism and the military industrial complex?

[Deranged Rhino]

28 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said:

 I understand the skepticism, but it's premature to state that the intelligence apparatus/legal system is collapsing our system of justice.

 

 

Premature is probably the wrong word.  

 

We have 70 years of evidence of the IC doing exactly that... Thinking they're above it now, or have somehow evolved beyond it, is ... dangerously naive.

25 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes I'm sure the Republican DA who was personally interviewed and appointed by Trump authorized this search because he's a partisan hack. The Republican Director of the FBI is also in cahoots with the Democrats. Every person is secretly out to get your side, and everyone on your side is innocent of all crimes, is that how it works?

 

You're behind in this conversation because you're hung up thinking this is about left versus right, dem versus republican. 

 

It's not and never has been. 

18 minutes ago, garybusey said:

 

This did not happen. You're either living in La La land or Trump is your Mom.

 

Ignorance on full display. Living up to his avatar.

[Warren Zevon]

 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

So what is your take on this raid? 

[outsidethebox]

58 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Those materials have already been in the hands of bad actors for hours, and the FBI has already demonstrated that it does not feel it needs to comply with the law.  Even if ordered to turn over all materials, they would not do so, or at least would not do so in a timely manner.  All material will be copied for the purpose of being disseminated via leaks.

How can anyone not see this is bad? Political parties aside, how can the accused (fbi) gain confidential information from the accusser? 

This could easily lead to blackmail. Are we now supposed to trust the fbi after all the illegal things they've done/doing?

This is not good, not good at all.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, westside said:

How can anyone not see this is bad? Political parties aside, how can the accused (fbi) gain confidential information from the accusser? 

This could easily lead to blackmail. Are we now supposed to trust the fbi after all the illegal things they've done/doing?

This is not good, not good at all.

Checks, that's how. It is not just the FBI but officials at the DOJ and judge that was presented facts to show it was necessary. 

 

That's how the system works. Political parties had nothing at all to do with this 

[outsidethebox]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Checks, that's how. It is not just the FBI but officials at the DOJ and judge that was presented facts to show it was necessary. 

 

That's how the system works. Political parties had nothing at all to do with this 

You actually think this isn't politically motivated? Seriously?

 

I wish peoplewould put politics aside and put the country first.  I could easily see how this can be used to blackmail or bribe someone for political gain.

When will this stop? What's going to happen to the next elected Democratic President. This tit for tat only snowballs into something that could potentially become the downfall of this great nation.

Or is that your goal in the end? Take this country down?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[row_33]

There's about 125 Michael Cohens listed as lawyers in NYC, hopefully they have the correct one this time before making huge assertions again.

 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Why the eye roll?

[Deranged Rhino]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

Why the eye roll?

 

Notice the language used... the warrant was "requested" for taxi medallions (ie - nothing to do with Trump), but CNN's sources state the warrant "also asked" for Stormy Daniels info. 

 

Words matter. They're being duplicitous in trying to make the latter statement seem like the actual reason for the raid.

 

It's not. 

 

But they're not interested in truth, nor is their audience. They're interested in pushing the narrative they've been breathlessly pushing (and losing) since last November. 

[Warren Zevon]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

So what is your take on this raid? 

 

See the below post. The post echoes DR's thoughts and even uses the same format DR's posts do.

 

5 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Reading this thread is incredible. I honestly would like to know what President Trump did to some of you that you want to see a sitting president gone in a soft coup. Schumer said it best when he said, "Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you" ... and people cheer this behavior by our "intelligence community" on!? I've never understood the vitriol toward Trump by people who are not members of the unelected-political swap.

 

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Notice the language used... the warrant was "requested" for taxi medallions (ie - nothing to do with Trump), but CNN's sources state the warrant "also asked" for Stormy Daniels info. 

 

Words matter. They're being duplicitous in trying to make the latter statement seem like the actual reason for the raid.

 

It's not. 

 

But they're not interested in truth, nor is their audience. They're interested in pushing the narrative they've been breathlessly pushing (and losing) since last November. 

Well that part is understandable

 

But we need to see the link between NYC Taxi cabs and Russia. I'm thinking that Russia spies drove the taxis to collude with big time Trump powers to scheme

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, garybusey said:

 

See the below post. The post echoes DR's thoughts and even uses the same format DR's posts do.

 

English isn't a format. It's a language you continually demonstrate you struggle with comprehending.  

[Tiberius]

33 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Notice the language used... the warrant was "requested" for taxi medallions (ie - nothing to do with Trump), but CNN's sources state the warrant "also asked" for Stormy Daniels info. 

 

Words matter. They're being duplicitous in trying to make the latter statement seem like the actual reason for the raid.

 

It's not. 

 

But they're not interested in truth, nor is their audience. They're interested in pushing the narrative they've been breathlessly pushing (and losing) since last November. 

And the FBI, Mueller, DOJ and a judge are all just Hillary crusaders? That's really far fetched 

[Deranged Rhino]

Of course it's far fetched. You said it - and you've proven your grasp on the truth, or reality, is tenuous at best. 

[LA Grant]

Shout out to Alan Dershowitz for providing conservatives with their talking points on this. How many times have you seen "this is a very dangerous day for lawyer-client relationships" today?

 

From defending OJ to defending Trump, Dershy is the morally upright citizen we should all look to emulate. ?

 

That defense only works if you (a) assume we already know everything about this case when we obviously only have a limited amount of information; (b) assume Cohen himself is not guilty of crimes as an individual bad actor, and he's only being targeted for his documents on Trump, despite Mueller decidedly not investigating Cohen as part of his case; (c) really really really really reaaaaaaally want the alternate reality you've already decided to be true ... to actually be true.

 

Here's some broader context on why shouting "ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE" at the moon does not apply. Thanks for trying though.

 

Quote

 

Privileged communication in the context of the law goes something like this: An attorney and his or her client can't be forced to disclose those communications where the client is seeking or receiving legal advice from the attorney. They are "privileged" or protected so that a client is free to be totally honest with his legal representatives -- without fear of exposure.

But, there is a limitation to the attorney-client privilege -- exceptions that Trump doesn't seem to understand. And the specific limit here is something called the crime-fraud exception.

That exception does what its name suggests. If communications typically covered by attorney-client privilege are deemed to be "in furtherance of a current or a planned crime or fraud" then the privilege does not apply. In other words, if attorney-client privilege is being invoked to cover up an ongoing criminal act or a planned criminal act, that privilege is suspended over those communications. 

Quote

 

Take all of that out of legal terminology and you get this: Cohen is in very deep trouble.

Josh Campbell, a former FBI special agent and now a CNN contributor, tweeted this on Monday night from one of his former colleagues: "I've been an FBI special agent for 20 years and have only seen a handful of searches executed on attorneys. All of those attorneys went to prison."

Now for some context.

We know that Cohen set up a limited liability corporation -- "Essential Consultants" -- in Delaware three weeks before the 2016 election. Ten days after he established the company -- and 11 days before the election -- Cohen paid porn star Stormy Daniels $130,000 through Essential Consultants as part of a hush agreement to ensure her silence about an alleged affair between she and Trump in the mid 2000s.

Cohen has said he made the payment from his own pocket, taking out a home equity line of credit to do so. He said he had no contact with Trump or anyone else in the Trump orbit and had no expectation he would be paid back in any way, shape or form for the six-figure pay out. Cohen has also insisted he didn't believe Daniels allegations, that he made the payment to her solely out of a desire to protect Trump from the airing of these scurrilous allegations. The timing of the payout -- so close to the 2016 election -- was purely coincidental, Cohen has said.

Here's an important note: If Cohen didn't tell Trump about the hush agreement -- as the two of them have claimed -- then the communications between them about it may not be privileged.

We also know that in the raid on Cohen on Monday, the FBI seized documents related to the Daniels case. (She has filed suit, alleging that the hush agreement is unenforceable because Trump never signed it.)

Tweeted Daniels lawyer Michael Avenatti on Tuesday morning: "I use the attorney-client privilege. I know the attorney-client privilege. The attorney-client privilege is a friend of mine. And the attorney-client privilege is not dead. What is dead is using the privilege to hide illegal acts. And that has been dead for a long time."

 

 

Of course... now the TakeYouToTrumper/DelusionalRINO types will need to find some other way to disguise their true message: "This is either an investigation into Hillary Pizzagate Deep State, or it's a witch hunt with no merit -- either way Trump good, Hillary bad! Trump good! Hillary bad! <tears swell> T-T-Trump g-g-g-good!!! <tears are just streaming down their bulbous cheeks at this point> H-H-H-Hill-Hillary.... b-bad! <full nervous breakdown>"

 

LET'S BE REAL — There is not a "both sides are equally guilty" to everything. Republicans/Conservatives are frauds, liars, hypocrites -- they only want to see "their team" win, and would happily sacrifice the rest of us to get that. Now you're seeing them (Tasker included) threaten violence because they don't personally like this criminal investigation.

 

Did Tasker threaten "civil war" when the FBI was investigating Hillary's emails? Did he threaten civil war when Congress demanded public release for virtually every email Hillary sent during her time as Secretary of State? 

 

These people are FULL OF IT, and they haven't been consistent on anything since AT LEAST the 1980s. 

 

There are no Republican intellectuals anymore. That's why they have no identity, no soul, no ideas. They are in it for vanity. Trump might as well be a tackier Kardashian (which is saying something). John Bolton is a goofy idiot from TV, and he's only one of SEVEN people Trump has put into power simply because they were pundits on Fox News.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by LA Grant

[Deranged Rhino]

Projection is HILARIOUS when it's presented without the projector even being aware of the hypocrisy.  

[LA Grant]

18 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Of course it's far fetched. You said it - and you've proven your grasp on the truth, or reality, is tenuous at best. 

 

??

Fun Fact: This is actually what Rhino says to himself in the mirror every morning.

 

Then he slaps himself repeatedly, NO!! Trump is innocent!! It must be true!! It IS true!!! ...<deep breath> It IS true. <deep breath> It is true.

[Deranged Rhino]

Proving my point yet again, LA Asshat.

[Tiberius]

23 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Of course it's far fetched. You said it - and you've proven your grasp on the truth, or reality, is tenuous at best. 

So you are just down to throwing out insults now. It looks more like your grasp of the truth is whats in question 

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, Tiberius said:

So you are just down to throwing out insults now. It looks more like your grasp of the truth is whats in question 

 

Don't forget this part of DR's bullsheeeeeeeet manifesto...

 

This is as much of a spiritual battle as it is a physical one which is why bullets won't win this war, only love and truth shall prevail. Sounds cheesy and hippy-dippy, I know. But it doesn't make it any less accurate. You simply cannot get a positive from a negative.

[LA Grant]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Proving my point yet again, LA Asshat.

 

I'm sure you think it does.  ?

 

But then again, I'm not the one who's spent the last year or so insisting 2 plus 2 equals 9.  ?

 

"Oh yeah, you're just gonna believe what the liberal mainstream education system tells you about arithmetic? <pulls out folder with 2,000 scribbled napkins spilling out> WELL LOOK AT THIS!!!"

[Deranged Rhino]

Some can't be reached. Others must be mocked for their own good. And a few are not interested in honest discussions, just insults - which are repaid in full.

 

You know which one you are, Garbear. 

Just now, LA Grant said:

 

I'm sure you think it does.  ?

 

But then again, I'm not the one who's spent the last year or so insisting 2 plus 2 equals 9.  ?

 

"Oh yeah, you're just gonna believe what the liberal mainstream education system tells you about arithmetic? <pulls out folder with 2,000 scribbled napkins spilling out> WELL LOOK AT THIS!!!"

 

You couldn't summarize my position if you had all day to do so. 

 

So forgive me for not giving a flip what you think of a position you admit you don't understand or haven't bothered to read. 

 

But please, LA Asshat, keep going. You're proving yourself to be a giant intellectual.