Royale with Cheese Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: He is going to get a big deal though. This is the perfect storm for Sammy. It is a terrible WR draft and there are teams with tons of cap space and a WR need. I think he ends up getting around $14M annually. If I had to guess he goes to SF. Very true. I'm also thinking coming off of the year he had, it might be better for him to sign that 1 year prove it deal. If he has that great year, then his stock soars. He then could be looking at a much better deal the year after. It all depends if he's willing to bet on himself. Jeffrey signed a 1 year $14 million last year with the Eagles before his extension. Do you think Watkins value is at Jeffrey's level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: Deandre Hopkins disagrees with your sentiment. How many first round picks were used on Hopkins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: So does Josh Gordon How many first round picks were used on Hopkins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, JohnC said: How many first round picks were used on Hopkins? 1, and that is completely irrelevant to the statement I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said: 1, and that is completely irrelevant to the statement I disagree with. No, it is very relevant to the discussion that I was involved with over Watkins i.e. the cost for the player under the circumstances. Your response failed to note the cost of the player. That is the relevant point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: Very true. I'm also thinking coming off of the year he had, it might be better for him to sign that 1 year prove it deal. If he has that great year, then his stock soars. He then could be looking at a much better deal the year after. It all depends if he's willing to bet on himself. Jeffrey signed a 1 year $14 million last year with the Eagles before his extension. Do you think Watkins value is at Jeffrey's level? I will bet his value is higher. There just aren’t receivers out there and the teams with the money need them. I think that he is looking at 4 years $56M with $32M guarantee (something like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 22 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: "To all the people that have a problem with me being injured you guys go out there and play this sport it’s a 100% injury rate,” Watkins wrote. “I’m not first or last person that’s gone be injured difference from me and you guys y’all mad and I’m not get a life and goto work stop worrying about my job because I’m good on this end and forever will be losers most of you just wish to be in this position so continue working y’all little jobs for the rest of y’all lives since everyone once a response here go one have a blessed day.” Watkins later posted, then deleted, a clarification on Twitter: “Message wasn’t for fans for whomever have a problem with athletes being injured.” https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/oct/28/bills-watkins-to-fans-continue-working-yall-little-jobs-for-the-rest-of-yall-lives When you cut out that part it looks far worse than it was. Not a great look. Awkward, looked small, should never have been posted. But also not a big deal. I'd bring him back solely for his eloquence and grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JohnC said: How many first round picks were used on Hopkins? A 1st on Hopkins and a 2nd on Gordon. What does that have to do with “It doesn't matter how great a receiver is when his talents can't be fulfilled because of the caliber of qb/s he is playing with?” How many 1sts were used and a wr can’t succeed with a QB are 2 different things. Edited March 7, 2018 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, JohnC said: No, it is very relevant to the discussion that I was involved with over Watkins i.e. the cost for the player under the circumstances. Your response failed to note the cost of the player. That is the relevant point. 6 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: 1, and that is completely irrelevant to the statement I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Playoffs? said: Would really like Sammy, Kelvin and Zay as our starters. Agree. Sammy and Kelvin could teach Zay how to catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I will bet his value is higher. There just aren’t receivers out there and the teams with the money need them. I think that he is looking at 4 years $56M with $32M guarantee (something like that). I'm really interested what types of offer(s) he gets on the market. I can't see the big multi year deal yet but could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: I don't want to quibble because it is a waste of time. You are isolating a statement that was made in a wider context. The discussion related to Watkins and the price paid for him. My position is if the Bills would have had a credible qb then the Watkins deal would have made more sense. The Hopkins situation is clearly different from the Watkins situation. If Houston would have given up two first round picks for Hopkins that would not have been a good deal. Edited March 7, 2018 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, JohnC said: I don't want to quibble because it is a waste of time. You are isolating a statement that was made in a wider context. The discussion related to Watkins and the price paid for him. If Houston would have given up two first round picks for Hopkins that would not have been a good deal. If they gave up 6 1sts or signed him as an UDFA how does that relate to, “it doesn't matter how great a receiver is when his talents can't be fulfilled because of the caliber of qb/s he is playing with?” That statement says that a QB will ultimately propel or hold back a WR. That isn’t the case with Hopkins and Gordon. They excelled with horrendous QBs (not even average ones). Josh Gordon had over 1,600 yards with Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer. Hopkins had Osweiler and Savage. Great WRs are great regardless of the QB. 4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I'm really interested what types of offer(s) he gets on the market. I can't see the big multi year deal yet but could be wrong. I just think with the Bears, 49ers, Browns, Jets, Rams and others in on him he will be getting a score. I think that the Rams set the bar with a strong offer and then he gets a massive offer on the market. I think Sammy is taking the absolute maximum in guaranteed dollars regardless of situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said: If they gave up 6 1sts or signed him as an UDFA how does that relate to, “it doesn't matter how great a receiver is when his talents can't be fulfilled because of the caliber of qb/s he is playing with?” That statement says that a QB will ultimately propel or hold back a WR. That isn’t the case with Hopkins and Gordon. They excelled with horrendous QBs (not even average ones). Josh Gordon had over 1,600 yards with Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer. Hopkins had Osweiler and Savage. Great WRs are great regardless of the QB. Good point. Fitzpatrick and the entire Jets receiving corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Just now, Kirby Jackson said: If they gave up 6 1sts or signed him as an UDFA how does that relate to, “it doesn't matter how great a receiver is when his talents can't be fulfilled because of the caliber of qb/s he is playing with?” That statement says that a QB will ultimately propel or hold back a WR. That isn’t the case with Hopkins and Gordon. They excelled with horrendous QBs (not even average ones). Josh Gordon had over 1,600 yards with Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer. Hopkins had Osweiler and Savage. Great WRs are great regardless of the QB. Again, how many first round picks were used for Gordon and Hopkins? In addition, if talented receivers perform well with mediocre qbing it stands to reason that they will perform even better with good qbing. Or another way of looking at it is maximizing the talent with a better qb. That's the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I just think with the Bears, 49ers, Browns, Jets, Rams and others in on him he will be getting a score. I think that the Rams set the bar with a strong offer and then he gets a massive offer on the market. I think Sammy is taking the absolute maximum in guaranteed dollars regardless of situation. I wonder if his agent will tell him not to do that. His case is very interesting; he could choose to take the most guaranteed money right now regardless of situation, and hope that it is his de facto big payday. Or--and this is what I would tell him to do--he could bet on himself by taking a 1-year deal with a team like SF, Baltimore, Tennessee, or Indy that has an established veteran at QB and go for the big payday next offseason. We shall see I suppose. I'll tell you what would be the craziest move, IMO: he signs a 1-year deal with New Orleans. They already have $18M in dead cap space committed to Brees, so a new deal for him shouldn't push his 2018 cap number up too much, which means that the $31M the team has in cap space right now is available for loading up. If they did nothing offensively in FA other than sign Watkins and keep Brees, they'd easily have the most potent offense in the NFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: I wonder if his agent will tell him not to do that. His case is very interesting; he could choose to take the most guaranteed money right now regardless of situation, and hope that it is his de facto big payday. Or--and this is what I would tell him to do--he could bet on himself by taking a 1-year deal with a team like SF, Baltimore, Tennessee, or Indy that has an established veteran at QB and go for the big payday next offseason. We shall see I suppose. I'll tell you what would be the craziest move, IMO: he signs a 1-year deal with New Orleans. They already have $18M in dead cap space committed to Brees, so a new deal for him shouldn't push his 2018 cap number up too much, which means that the $31M the team has in cap space right now is available for loading up. If they did nothing offensively in FA other than sign Watkins and keep Brees, they'd easily have the most potent offense in the NFC. I thought about that. I think that they go after Graham and/or maybe Landry. Their offense will be ridiculous is 2018. 15 minutes ago, JohnC said: Again, how many first round picks were used for Gordon and Hopkins? In addition, if talented receivers perform well with mediocre qbing it stands to reason that they will perform even better with good qbing. Or another way of looking at it is maximizing the talent with a better qb. That's the point! Those guys led the league in yards with those scrubs throwing them the ball. If we should expect a big jump with great QBs we should be offering both 1sts yesterday for those guys. If we think that they are 2,000 yard receivers with great QBs and will lead the league with scrubs we need them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFFacet Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 16 hours ago, thebandit27 said: No. He lead the team in receiving TDs and had the highest YPC of any of their WRs; that does not relegate him to their 4th most important RB/WR just because you think it does. He drew the opponent's coverage focus all season--he gets less cushion than all but 4 other WRs in the NFL; the WR that caught the most passes gets the most cushion--that's not a coincidence (especially not when the team has a QB with an average intended air yards figure that ranks 22nd in the NFL--behind the likes of Tyrod Taylor and Trevor Siemien). It's also worth noting that Goff is a pretty timid QB in terms of throwing into coverage; NextGenStats indicates that he ranks 37th out of 41 qualifying QBs in % of passing attempts thrown into tight coverage (so defined as having a defender within 1 yard of the target at the time of the attempt). Watkins was both the team's best deep threat and the team's best red zone receiver. You seem to believe that big plays and TDs are of less value to them than chain-movers, which is fine, but definitely debatable. Also, no, both players are not free agents. Right now, both players are property of their respective teams until March 14th (absent a new deal). All we know at the moment is that one team has signed a guy (V. Davis) that appears to be one of their replacements. What we've been told, however, is that the other team will try to keep the other player. Dead wrong. You can always cherry pick a few stats that Watkins led his team in. He was not a significant player on their team this year. I'm not saying he played bad, but he was not some critical cog that unlocked everything else in the offense, as you seem to believe. That doesn't change just because you think it does. I didn't go into the season believing that Woods and Kupp would be more important. But rational people take into account new information. The past season speaks for itself. You are having a great deal of difficulty isolating the trade from irrelevant tangential issues. The trade was 1 guaranteed year of Watkins for 1 guaranteed year of Gaines + a 2nd round pick. Both players are about to become free agents, so their value to their teams is close to zero atm. The most valuable piece of the deal on either side, today, is the 2nd round pick, by far. It's that simple. Anyway, signing Gaines just to try to win the trade more (in some fans minds) is a sunk cost fallacy. Finding a better option than re-signing our own player does not decrease the grade of the trade in any way. And even if Watkins signs with the Rams as a FA, that doesn't affect the trade either. It's outside the scope of the trade, and it's not even necessarily a great thing for the Rams depending on what the contract is and on what they actually get out of Watkins going forward. Even if somehow Watkins signs with the Bills, that doesn't affect the grade of the trade either, for the exact same reasons. Outside the scope. Not necessarily great for the team. Totally unrelated to the events that came before it. As a matter of fact, there's basically nothing that can happen henceforth that affects the grade of the trade. The Watkins and Gaines free agencies are up to the contracts that the entire league can offer, and are ultimately their own decision. The 2nd round pick is a matter of proper scouting and coaching development. So the trade is a wrap and we're holding the only asset that has any value. Easy evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I thought about that. I think that they go after Graham and/or maybe Landry. Their offense will be ridiculous is 2018. Those guys led the league in yards with those scrubs throwing them the ball. If we should expect a big jump with great QBs we should be offering both 1sts yesterday for those guys. If we think that they are 2,000 yard receivers with great QBs and will lead the league with scrubs we need them now. Kirby, With all due respect you missed the point regarding the Watkins discussion. The discussion has turned into a dog chasing it's tail. With respect to the receivers you mentioned I would not give up two first round picks for either one of them. That's not how you build up and balance out a roster. However I would give up two first round picks for a qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: Kirby, With all due respect you missed the point regarding the Watkins discussion. The discussion has turned into a dog chasing it's tail. With respect to the receivers you mentioned I would not give up two first round picks for either one of them. That's not how you build up and balance out a roster. However I would give up two first round picks for a qb. That has nothing to do with the comment that I am taking issue with. These are your EXACT words, “It doesn't matter how great a receiver is when his talents can't be fulfilled because of the caliber of qb/s he is playing with.” You either believe that to be the case or you don’t. If you believe that Gordon and Hopkins were derailed by bad QB play (while leading the league in receiving) than you should give anything for those guys. I think deep down you would admit that they excelled despite poor QB play. That flies right in the face of your quote though which is why we keep going round and round. I would say that “their talents were fulfilled” despite having atrocious QBs. Therefore I disagree with your quote. A great player is a great player regardless of the players around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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