Guest NeckBeard Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 How is this not a rebuild? I'll tell you, but you have to promise to use the word "rebuild" in the way that it is typically used in reference to sports franchises. A rebuild is when the leadership of the team actively releases players, including good players who have multiple years left in their careers and who will play someplace else. It's an active decision to turn over the roster more rapidly that it would ordinarily turn over from the draft, free agency, cuts and retirements. It's a drastic change in personnel because the decision has been made to start over. The word also implies that management is consciously making the team worse in the short-run because they've decided the fastest way to get good is to start over. Yes, using the the word "rebuild" in the generic, general English language sense, the front office has been rebuilt. But when sports fans talk about rebuilding a team, they're talking about the roster, not the front office. There has been nothing, at least not yet, that is anything like a roster rebuild in Buffalo. Woods, Goodwin and Brown were pretty normal free agency departures - the Bills would have like to keep them, just not at the prices they were asking. They didn't leave because there was a conscious decision to start over. This isn't a rebuild. Doesn't mean that there won't be one. A new GM and a new coach could decide in January that a thorough roster housecleaning is the best way to go forward, but they certainly aren't going to do that yet. You aren't going to cut talent at this time of year, because your opportunity to get talent is very small. All the good talent has been drafted or signed already. For example, a rebuild could result in guys like Incognito, Dareus and Hughes being cut. Imagine the headlines on ESPN and imagine the free agency frenzy that would start if those guys were cut. The league would be frantic to sign those guys. But the Bills would have no opportunity to replace them, because no other teams are releasing talent. It's very unlikely that a coach or GM would cut a bunch of guys like that at this time of year. Now, I could imagine McDermott deciding in August he's fed up with a player, like a Dareus or a Hughes and just cut him, but that's not a rebuild. That's just a coach getting rid of someone he considers a bad apple. So if there's going to be a rebuild, it'll be a 2018 rebuild. I don't know why you have dug in so deeply with this, but the Bills are rebuilding from the inside->out. No NFL team can afford a roster housecleaning unless they have a long-term plan for losing a lot, one where coaching and the FO lasts longer than its abilities to acquire and to coach up talent). Look at how that's going for Cleveland, assuming that it was a recent plan more than just being totally inept (I believe the latter more than the former). You keep coming back to a very specific meaning of rebuilding, but I think it's lunacy. Short of getting into Salary Cap Jail, like they did in 2000, I don't think the Bills are going to purge talent to rebuild the team. I think they are going to take new approaches to evaluating talent, that a lot of dead weight from the existing roster disappears over time, and that they will hope to be more judicious with the salary cap. Now I am sure you are going to throw out the case of "NE must always be rebuilding then," but they aren't. They are replacing one set of talent with another, and don't have the FO or coaching churn that we have with this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 You have avoided the simple question that Shaw66 has put to you: What recent front office and coaching hire has bothered you so much that you are out of hand rejecting it as a bad transaction? What recent player transaction has bothered you so much that you have already rejected it as being bad? None of the people responding to your post has denied you the right to be skeptical. But when asked by Shaw66 and others what specific decision/s do you find so offensive that you out of hand reject it you vaguely respond about the history contaminating the present. That is a very thin response. There is nothing wrong with you being skeptical because I am to a lesser degree wary of the immediate empowering of the wrestling coach over the football operation. But even on that issue I am a little less troubled because the staff assembled in the front office seem to be high quality. In my view this team is a few years away from being a serious team. So you are going to have plenty of time and opportunities to express your displeasure as to what is unfolding. However, it seems to me that the ground work that is being laid down in the beginning stage of this takeover is being down properly and smartly. Only time will tell. How many times do I have to repeat this in this thread?.........McDermott and company are "meh" hires with no exceptional track record of success in their previous jobs.....new blood who haven't even won at their assistant jobs....then Pegs basically took all the other tough decisions out of his own hands and gave them to the unproven new nobody coach to hire whoever he wants in the front office..........this is the follow up to Marrone quitting rather than work for him and the subsequent Rex hiring........not exactly Bob Kraft going from Parcells quitting on him to hiring Pete Carroll to hiring Belichick, IMO. Pegs basically has no f*cking idea whatsoever to do with these two organizations, that's why he embarrassingly hot-potatoed the whole football operation over to McDermott. Maybe he will get lucky......Ralph got lucky once when Polian and the circumstances of the USFL helped him build a super roster..........but Pegs is pushing 70 so those expecting him to get BETTER at this might be a tad unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 As a former, and long-standing member of the BBMB, I had always thought it was the same 8-10 posters who couldn't get enough of needling one another. But I do agree with the holier than thou aspect you have mentioned. As to Shaw's points, earlier in this thread, Shaw agreed with me that rebuilding in the NFL might have a different context now, but now Shaw has changed their mind. Odd. I never once was on that site and didn't mean to slight every poster. Sorry, it does seem to read as if I did. Badol is a long time respected member of this community and irked me to see him referred to as ignorant. He has strong opinions but they make sense and he backs them up. Any new poster coming to this board would be well served to read and consider his takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I never once was on that site and didn't mean to slight every poster. Sorry, it does seem to read as if I did. Badol is a long time respected member of this community and irked me to see him referred to as ignorant. He has strong opinions but they make sense and he backs them up. Any new poster coming to this board would be well served to read and consider his takes. In all honest.....I could not stand Bado when I first started corresponding with him. but...one thing I do pride myself on is being honest.....and as time went on I found myself agreeing with him on subjects more and more. Dude knows his stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Few years? If they aren't showing progress by the end of year two then the pressure will be immense on McDermott and company. You don't last long in this league without some what immediate results. Exactly. This is a veteran team........they've lost some good young talent but playoffs should ABSOLUTELY be their goal this year........and if it weren't they should have gotten rid of guys like Eric Wood, Shady and Kyle Williams who are basically one-and-dones here. I don't buy the 3 year climb to respectability nonsense......McDermott won't survive that long.......Pegula ensured the blame of losing would heap on McDermott quickly by putting him in charge of EVERYTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) I'm mostly in agreement. I'm willing to wait and see. For those who were/are opposed to the McDermott hire, who would you have gone with instead? I wanted a top X's and O's coach who could install a modern NFL offense and also was a QB guru (so that we could land our franchise QB). Kyle Shanahan and Jim Bob Cooter were the top guys for me. I see McDermott as a Marrone/Jauron hybrid. Marrone made the trains run on time and I expect Mcdermott will do the same. This sort of coach can work but he will need to get a very good QB. Since McDermott decided to go with Tyrod this year he is putting his entire coaching career on the line next draft in 2018. If McD and Beane do not acquire a credible QB prospect who can be a franchise guy I expect their stay in Buffalo to be very short. Edited May 22, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Hard to answer this question without the exact definition of "rebuild". My interpretation, or yours? That could be two very different things. Yes, new staff and FO, but we didn't kick players like Kyle to the curb to clean house. Rebuilt the FO more than the team. So yes and no (or at least not so much). Hope the new guys do as well as my optimistic side hopes they can to change the way we look as a team. ....agree Augie.....two distinctly different arenas in which to rebuild.....FO/Administration/Coaching versus player personnel.......FO/Administration/Coaching was in dire need of a rebuild, dating back to the Polian firing.....been nothing short of patchwork with non-football people in positions not qualified for or those past their prime...... and if the FO/Administration/Coaching personnel hired in the rebuild do demonstrate a finely tuned FOOTBALL organization, it should trickle down to your player personnel who have confidence in that leadership....... Edited May 22, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Creating a paradigm of optimists vs pessimists is not only foolish, it is childish. Pointing out bad coaching hires is not being pessimistic, it is pointing out the obvious. Pointing out bad picks or bad contracts is not being pessimistic it is pointing out the facts. The Bills have been bad for more than a generation. Your response is to blame the critical observers. That's not only childish but it is simply weird. You criticize Sullivan for not accurately getting the reasons right why this woebegone franchise continues to lose year after year, and then act as if not being precise in one's criticism is a justification for historical failure. That not only makes no sense but it is odd reasoning. Losing is losing. Especially when it rises to historical failure why be bothered by the precision of the complaints when the problems are so pervasive. The blame the fans mentality for such institutional failure is simply dumb. It makes no sense. It's like blaming the owners of a burglarized house because their locks were inadequate. Let's get real here! I've seen you toss this around. It sounds bad. But what are you basing it on exactly? I'm not trying to get All Religious here, but if you use the biblical 40 years, it's not even close. Miriam Webster defines it (among other definitions) as the age between a mother and child. Technically, I guess 12 or 13 years could be a generation. We've been bad since what, 2000? But we had 2 winning seasons on there. Were we bad those years too? 2000 - 2016 is 17 years if you're not counting the 2 winning seasons. I guess technically it's more than a generation. I guess I'm just glad my daughter didn't choose to start a new generation at 17 . Edited May 22, 2017 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 A team that has changed coach's regularly and is still paying 2 of them big bucks is not changing anytime soon. Anyone see Pegula at the PC say he hoped he didn't have to do it again for 15 years. This crew will be here for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NeckBeard Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I never once was on that site and didn't mean to slight every poster. Sorry, it does seem to read as if I did. Badol is a long time respected member of this community and irked me to see him referred to as ignorant. He has strong opinions but they make sense and he backs them up. Any new poster coming to this board would be well served to read and consider his takes. Didn't #BADOL start TBD? I remember checking out the missive, maybe their's, before I had joined. Anybody who starts a board like this, for talking about the game, talking about our favorite team, is super awesome in the Book of NeckBeard. :-) I wanted a top X's and O's coach who could install a modern NFL offense and also was a QB guru (so that we could land our franchise QB). Kyle Shanahan and Jim Bob Cooter were the top guys for me. I see McDermott as a Marrone/Jauron hybrid. Marrone made the trains run on time and I expect Mcdermott will do the same. This sort of coach can work but he will need to get a very good QB. Since McDermott decided to go with Tyrod this year he is putting his entire coaching career on the line next draft in 2018. If McD and Beane do not acquire a credible QB prospect who can be a franchise guy I expect their stay in Buffalo to be very short. Neither Kyle or JBC were those guys. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that they are / were. There were rumors of Kyle being "done" last year, and it was shocked that a resurgent Falcons squad caused his ascent. JBC, I don't know, but it's not like people fell all over themselves to hire JBC as HC either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Didn't #BADOL start TBD? I remember checking out the missive, maybe their's, before I had joined. Anybody who starts a board like this, for talking about the game, talking about our favorite team, is super awesome in the Book of NeckBeard. :-) No, but I and a bunch of others came over when Scott Sarama started this site after the Democrat and Chronicle "HyperBills" board was shut down in 1998, I believe. He is the boss and he is the guy that welcomed all the BBMB people in those first few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Didn't #BADOL start TBD? I remember checking out the missive, maybe their's, before I had joined. Anybody who starts a board like this, for talking about the game, talking about our favorite team, is super awesome in the Book of NeckBeard. :-) Neither Kyle or JBC were those guys. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that they are / were. There were rumors of Kyle being "done" last year, and it was shocked that a resurgent Falcons squad caused his ascent. JBC, I don't know, but it's not like people fell all over themselves to hire JBC as HC either. Because most NFL teams are run the same way. There is a lot of group think which is why the Patriots roll over the rest of the NFL. Jim Bob Cooter will be a head coach and a very good one. His skills are in short supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NeckBeard Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Because most NFL teams are run the same way. There is a lot of group think which is why the Patriots roll over the rest of the NFL. Jim Bob Cooter will be a head coach and a very good one. His skills are in short supply. I don't know how your argument holds true when the Bills rebuilt the talent acquisition part of their FO, and also hired a new HC. JBC could be good, but who knows? He wasn't hired in a league that's starving of HC and QB talent. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I don't know how your argument holds true when the Bills rebuilt the talent acquisition part of their FO, and also hired a new HC. JBC could be good, but who knows? He wasn't hired in a league that's starving of HC and QB talent. Time will tell. Because most NFL teams are not run very well. They call on guys like Casserly and Polian. Sure, these guys were good but new ideas are in short supply. It's an old boys network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NeckBeard Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 No, but I and a bunch of others came over when Scott Sarama started this site after the Democrat and Chronicle "HyperBills" board was shut down in 1998, I believe. He is the boss and he is the guy that welcomed all the BBMB people in those first few days. Interesting! Thanks for the info! Because most NFL teams are not run very well. They call on guys like Casserly and Polian. Sure, these guys were good but new ideas are in short supply. It's an old boys network. So, by your standard, isn't it a new idea to reboot a franchise by hiring a "wrestling coach", and to completely remake the talent acqiuisition of a team? That's a new idea, and a totally un-Billsy one. Let's see how it goes. I'm 50/50 as to its success, TBH, but I love the concept of what is happening now, JBC, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Interesting! Thanks for the info! So, by your standard, isn't it a new idea to reboot a franchise by hiring a "wrestling coach", and to completely remake the talent acqiuisition of a team? That's a new idea, and a totally un-Billsy one. Let's see how it goes. I'm 50/50 as to its success, TBH, but I love the concept of what is happening now, JBC, or not. You brought up two different points, the coaching and the GM/personnel department. Sean McDermott doesn't look like a really new idea at all. Most NFL teams cycle through personalities. You have a players' coach, next guy is a disciplinarian. Remember when we went with Gregg Williams after Wade? He is another defensive coach who will be playing a scheme based on zone defense where the front 4 attack the line of scrimmage. We had that in Jauron/Fewell. I don't think he is a top end X's and O's guy. He seems to want to be an admin/CEO. As does his GM who came with him. The guys we hire are just names. Until they start drafting top talent it means nothing. Edited May 22, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Because most NFL teams are not run very well. They call on guys like Casserly and Polian. Sure, these guys were good but new ideas are in short supply. It's an old boys network. Says who? You? You state opinions as fact.....BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Says who? You? You state opinions as fact.....BS Bears Bills Jets Browns Dolphins etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Bears Bills Jets Browns Dolphins etc A new meaning of (most) majority is listing 5 teams (including a playoff team) and adding etc at the end. What a piece of work! Well run teams Patriots Packers Broncos Steelers Ravens etc Edited May 22, 2017 by horned dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 A new meaning of (most) majority is listing 5 teams (including a playoff team) and adding etc at the end. What a piece of work! Well run teams Patriots Packers Broncos Steelers Ravens etc You could name 20 teams as poorly run. If you are not sure who they are ask someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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