MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) So we are deciding that the stats when he carries the ball don't count even though that it a central part of what he does? Why should we exclude fumbles and TD runs when he is asked to be a ball carrier? No one holds that against Cam....Because I want to see how he is as a FREAKING Passer comparing APPLES to APPLES. I KNOW he can run. Yep I give him that but as a Passer he is serverly lacking and I have been consistent on that all year. Now when he runs the Ball he doesn't fumble, good neither do a lot of RBs Edited November 30, 2016 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Because I want to see how he is as a FREAKING Passer comparing APPLES to APPLES. I KNOW he can run. Yep I give him that but as a Passer he is serverly lacking and I have been consistent on that all year. Now when he runs the Ball he doesn't fumble, good neither do a lot of RBs So why should we take out an aspect of his game that he excels at when judging apples to apples? That's illogical. Of course he isn't conventional but he (personally) has accounted for 40 TDs and 12 turnovers (assuming the Truthhurts numbers are right). There is no reason to manipulate the gross numbers to pass through a story that supports our narrative. When people analyzed Mike Vick in his prime and compared him to contemporaries like Drew Bledsoe they didn't exclude the rushing stats from the equation. They are a part of the equation. They are quarterbacks, not passers. They take the ball on every snap (excluding wildcat) and are asked to move the ball. They are asked to score points. You can't analyze a portion of their job and make determinations of their effectiveness off of that. You need to factor in the ENTIRETY of what they do to make that judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Running is a huge part of his game. Why DISCREDIT that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Running is a huge part of his game. Why DISCREDIT that???Again I am looking at his passing abilities Jesus is it so hard to think I can look at a guys passing abilities and say they are good, or not. I don't care about his legs. Why because the NFL has proven time and time again that is not a sustainable plan for long term success Take his legs away you have a very limited passer how has very bad pocket presence. Again I know he can run. I knew RG3 could as wel until his knee got destroyed. I also love how we ignore his 12 fumbles (2 lost) as well. When we want to talk up his running Edited November 30, 2016 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Again I am looking at his passing abilities Jesus is it so hard to think I can look at a guys passing abilities and say they are good, or not. I don't care about his legs. Why because the NFL has proven time and time again that is not a sustainable plan for long term success Take his legs away you have a very limited passer how has very bad pocket presence. Again I know he can run. I knew RG3 could as wel until his knee got destroyed. I also love how we ignore his 7 fumbles as well. When we want to talk up his running We should be talking about fumbles. That's a part of it (someone cleary googled how many times he fumbled). We shouldn't take a portion of anybody's game and judge their performance. That's beyond foolish. John Miller, as an example, is asked to pass protect AND to open holes in the running game. His performance is based on how he does in BOTH of those categories. It is no different. Everyone is asked to execute on each play not just the passing or running plays. Judge the SUM of the parts, not the parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Again. Why take away his running? It's hard to attempt a pass when you are running for a 1st down. You are never going to like Tyrod, I get it, EVERYONE GETS IT. It's too bad for you I guess since you're a fan and have to root for someone you can't stand. Kinda like when Trump won & people rioted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 We should be talking about fumbles. That's a part of it (someone cleary googled how many times he fumbled). We shouldn't take a portion of anybody's game and judge their performance. That's beyond foolish. John Miller, as an example, is asked to pass protect AND to open holes in the running game. His performance is based on how he does in BOTH of those categories. It is no different. Everyone is asked to execute on each play not just the passing or running plays. Judge the SUM of the parts, not the parts. Nope didn't google lately those were from a couple weeks ago when I wanted to look at this career numbers I don't remember and fumbles from him the last two weeks so I doubt they changed. Again. Why take away his running? It's hard to attempt a pass when you are running for a 1st down. You are never going to like Tyrod, I get it, EVERYONE GETS IT. It's too bad for you I guess since you're a fan and have to root for someone you can't stand. Kinda like when Trump won & people rioted. Ok fine 41 TDs 14 turnovers for a turn over ratio still at 2.92 under 3. Add another 10 fumbles in there that were his fault Then add the NFL worst 3 and out % to the scoring mix and horrible passing stats of sub 7.0 YPA and 62% competition percentage and you have an AVG at best QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 He lost 10 fumbles this year? Wow, don't know how I missed that. Was it all from one game??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 He lost 10 fumbles this year? Wow, don't know how I missed that. Was it all from one game??? Wow didn't know I wrote lost 10 fumbles. Oooo I didn't Lost 2 had 10 more = 12 total fumbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Nope didn't google lately those were from a couple weeks ago when I wanted to look at this career numbers I don't remember and fumbles from him the last two weeks so I doubt they changed. Ok fine 41 TDs 14 turnovers for a turn over ratio still at 2.92 under 3. Add another 10 fumbles in there that were his fault Then add the NFL worst 3 and out % to the scoring mix and horrible passing stats of sub 7.0 YPA and 62% competition percentage and you have an AVG at best QB. 1. His YPA from 2015-present is above 7.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 1. His YPA from 2015-present is above 7.0. Your right mixed stats used his career scoring and his regressed 2016 stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Wow didn't know I wrote lost 10 fumbles. Oooo I didn't Lost 2 had 10 more = 12 total fumbles You continue to demonstrate you have no objective clue what youre talking about. I actually thought you knew more than you do. Either that or youre so jaded by your view that you dont even realize what the F youre talking about. How many fumbles does russel wilson have? 13. Cam had a period where he had 14. RG3 had so many i lost count. Aaron Rodgers 15. Mariota 17. Etc etc etc I stopped counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Nope didn't google lately those were from a couple weeks ago when I wanted to look at this career numbers I don't remember and fumbles from him the last two weeks so I doubt they changed. Ok fine 41 TDs 14 turnovers for a turn over ratio still at 2.92 under 3. Add another 10 fumbles in there that were his fault Then add the NFL worst 3 and out % to the scoring mix and horrible passing stats of sub 7.0 YPA and 62% competition percentage and you have an AVG at best QB. I think that's fair. They have had far too many 3 and outs, good red zone scoring, not a good enough 3rd down conversion percentage and have scored a lot of points. There has been some good and some bad. I'm in agreement that it's been fairly average QB play. It just hasn't been the tire fire that some (not you, you've been pretty fair) have tried to portray. This hasn't been EJ/Trent/Losman. It can certainly be improved (not sure that there is a realistic candidate to do that) but it could be worse. It has been okay. That's all that I am trying to illustrate. An objective look will show that's it's been middle of the league production (even if its unconventional). Ideally we would see the flaws (accuracy, anticipation, etc..) improve but I'm not holding my breath. At the same time, hopefully the good (ball security, red zone scoring, etc...) doesn't regress. This may be what we are looking at for the next few years but we've had much, much worse. That's the whole point that I am trying to make. Edited November 30, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 You continue to demonstrate you have no objective clue what youre talking about. I actually thought you knew more than you do. Either that or youre so jaded by your view that you dont even realize what the F youre talking about. How many fumbles does russel wilson have? 13. Cam had a period where he had 14. RG3 had so many i lost count. Aaron Rodgers 15. Mariota 17. Etc etc etc I stopped counting. No I do people want to talk his Running all the time to show he is good. They love including the TDs don't mention the 12 (2 lost) fumbles one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Your right mixed stats used his career scoring and his regressed 2016 stats But isnt that what was being discussed? Mixed stats? Im trying to follow along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Wow didn't know I wrote lost 10 fumbles. Oooo I didn't Lost 2 had 10 more = 12 total fumbles Do those 8 fumbles that he DIDNT lose really bother you? And were they his fault? Blindside sacks happen to every QB. Wow I've never heard someone reach like this. I think it's funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 No I do people want to talk his Running all the time to show he is good. They love including the TDs don't mention the 12 (2 lost) fumbles one bit. I get what youre saying man but acting like 12 fumbles is a lot its below avg compared to scrambling QBs. I get it though, it should be considered. We all know tyrod doesnt have a fumbling problem. We can debate pocket awareness but fumbling has not been a problem (knocking on all kinds of wood right now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I think that's fair. They have had far too many 3 and outs, good red zone scoring, not a good enough 3rd down conversion percentage and have scored a lot of points. There has been some good and some bad. I'm in agreement that it's been fairly average QB play. It just hasn't been the tire fire that some (not you, you've been pretty fair) have tried to portray. This hasn't been EJ/Trent/Losman. It can certainly be improved (not sure that there is a realistic candidate to do that) but it could be worse. It has been okay. That's all that I am trying to illustrate. An objective look will show that's it's been middle of the league production (even if its unconventional). Ideally we would see the flaws (accuracy, anticipation, etc..) improve but I'm not holding my breath. At the same time, hopefully the good (ball security, red zone scoring, etc...) doesn't regress. This may be what we are looking at for the next few years but we've had much, much worse. That's the whole point that I am trying to make. I understand the point your making and essentially agree with you he is a middle of the road QB. Now it really comes to the issue is if that's all he is going to be (i.e. At his ceiling then I am of the opinion move on because it is not good enough). Now if you think there is still room for growth then I understand wanting to pick up his option. Though from last year to this year I see regression in key areas, accuracy, getting rid of all on time, etc. That regression in year two worries me that this is the TT that we have. The occasional good game followed by stinkers. People here think I want him to fail I really don't he impressed me in Seattle I just want to see him do that over and over again, instead he reverts to the ultra conservative care taker. Do those 8 fumbles that he DIDNT lose really bother you? And were they his fault? Blindside sacks happen to every QB. Wow I've never heard someone reach like this. I think it's funny.10 non lost fumbles 2 lost fumbles End of they day they are fumbles are they not. Like lining up behind the OG fumble not lost and yeah that kind of bothers me because it puts the team in a hole does it not? Again point made if you want to include his running include his fumbles but no cherry pick stats the way you want to make it look better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Wow didn't know I wrote lost 10 fumbles. Oooo I didn't Lost 2 had 10 more = 12 total fumbles you don't count dropped INts so you don't count fumbles he doesn't lose. A turnover is a turnover. A TD is a TD. The Bills offense scores. Taylor can be better. The Bills can be better at QB. Keep drafting QBs. But Taylor is our starter. Edited November 30, 2016 by TheTruthHurts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I get what youre saying man but acting like 12 fumbles is a lot its below avg compared to scrambling QBs. I get it though, it should be considered. We all know tyrod doesnt have a fumbling problem. We can debate pocket awareness but fumbling has not been a problem (knocking on all kinds of wood right now). Not saying he does. If you go back to my post when I split up stats I even said he doesn't fumble a lot. But my point and think we agree is they should be included Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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