Storm Front Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The amount of variables, nuances, and outside factors that you are ignoring in your statements is almost unbelievable. Such as? I suppose you are another who thinks Goodwin is a great pass catcher, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 The amount of variables, nuances, and outside factors that you are ignoring in your statements is almost unbelievable. One of the most underrated variables in Goodwin's game is the ability to get defenders away from the LOS. You have to play a safety over the top and the corners off the line. This opens up running lanes and underneath routes. Offense in the NFL today is very similar to what is happening in the NBA right now. It is all about spacing and operating in space. I hope that the Bills know what they are doing with acquisitions like Connor and Felton that clog up space. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Wow, you think those are good stats? They are both terrible WR's who catch less than 50% of passes thrown to them. Goodwin caught one pass all of last year. That is just plain terrible. My point was that Goodwin can't catch well. By the way you are defending him, I guess you think he is a great pass catcher or something? You surely would be guessing, since I've never said anything even close to that. I never said that his stats were good, or even above-average. I refuted that the guy was a TJ Graham clone, which was what you said. I have no idea why you took that so personally. As a matter of house-cleaning, catching 17 of 32 passes isn't catching fewer than 50%. I can only assume you're referring to his career number there. Just for a barometer, here's a list of players that caught fewer than 50% of the targets they were credited with in 2014: Kelvin Benjamin Vincent Jackson Cecil Shorts Michael Floyd Hakeem Nicks Justin Hunter Cordarelle Patterson Point is, there's context to the numbers, and comparing Graham to Goodwin feels like a comparison that lacks any type of relevant context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Such as? I suppose you are another who thinks Goodwin is a great pass catcher, too? I think that Scott Chandler caught the ball pretty well. Steve Smith, Demaryius Thomas and Kelvin Benjamin tied for the league lead in drops last year. I am not sure that I am following the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Such as? I suppose you are another who thinks Goodwin is a great pass catcher, too? Such as those pointed out above. Your suppositions aren't really placed well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Goodwin has much better hands than TJ Graham, it isnt even close. I understand that isnt saying much, but I didnt come up with the comparison. Also, I believe there is a huge misconception on Completion %. I think fans believe that the good WRs catch 90-100% of their targets. That simply isnt true. Even the top WRs only average about a 65% catch to target ratio, some are even in the 50%s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I think that Scott Chandler caught the ball pretty well. Steve Smith, Demaryius Thomas and Kelvin Benjamin tied for the league lead in drops last year. I am not sure that I am following the point? My point is that Goodwin can't catch well and is more on the bubble than Hogan. I also feel that he is the same mold of WR as TJ Graham. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174208-time-to-label-marquise-goodwin-a-bust/They are both similarly fast, but can't catch well. Graham had better stats over the first two years of their careers, but they both stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 My point is that Goodwin can't catch well and is more on the bubble than Hogan. I also feel that he is the same mold of WR as TJ Graham. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174208-time-to-label-marquise-goodwin-a-bust/They are both similarly fast, but can't catch well. Graham had better stats over the first two years of their careers, but they both stink. Respectfully: - They are not similarly fast. Graham ran a 4.41; Goodwin ran a 4.27. That means that Goodwin is a significantly faster person. - Goodwin catches a higher percentage of his targets than Graham. - Goodwin made more impact plays as a rookie than Graham made as a second-year man Graham stinks. Goodwin is a weapon that needs to stay healthy. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 My point is that Goodwin can't catch well and is more on the bubble than Hogan. I also feel that he is the same mold of WR as TJ Graham. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174208-time-to-label-marquise-goodwin-a-bust/They are both similarly fast, but can't catch well. Graham had better stats over the first two years of their careers, but they both stink. Goodwin had a 3.1 drop % in his rookie year (when he actually played), Hogan had a 3.3 drop % last year, and Graham had a 5.3 in 2013 and a 12.1 in 2012 . The data just doesn't support your feelings. It really indicates that Hogan and Goodwin catch the ball pretty well and Graham doesn't. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 My point is that Goodwin can't catch well and is more on the bubble than Hogan. I also feel that he is the same mold of WR as TJ Graham. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174208-time-to-label-marquise-goodwin-a-bust/They are both similarly fast, but can't catch well. Graham had better stats over the first two years of their careers, but they both stink. We understand the point you are attempting to make. It's just that none of us agree with it, and can cite stats and logic why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Respectfully: - They are not similarly fast. Graham ran a 4.41; Goodwin ran a 4.27. That means that Goodwin is a significantly faster person. - Goodwin catches a higher percentage of his targets than Graham. - Goodwin made more impact plays as a rookie than Graham made as a second-year man Graham stinks. Goodwin is a weapon that needs to stay healthy. Big difference. Graham, who stinks, clocked a 4.1 40-time during his combine workouts. Goodwin, who stinks, has also been clocked under 4.20. They are both track stars who cannot catch a football well. Whether they are weapons is highly debatable and remains to be seen. They are players with similar skill sets, and more than likely both are on the bubble to make an NFL roster this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Graham, who stinks, clocked a 4.1 40-time during his combine workouts. Goodwin, who stinks, has also been clocked under 4.20. They are both track stars who cannot catch a football well. Whether they are weapons is highly debatable and remains to be seen. They are players with similar skill sets, and more than likely both are on the bubble to make an NFL roster this season. Graham ran a 4.41 and Goodwin ran a 4.27 http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/T%20J-Graham?id=2532850 http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/story/_/id/8981277/2013-nfl-draft-combine-marquise-goodwin-runs-40-yard-dash-427-seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Graham ran a 4.41 and Goodwin ran a 4.27 http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/T%20J-Graham?id=2532850 http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/story/_/id/8981277/2013-nfl-draft-combine-marquise-goodwin-runs-40-yard-dash-427-seconds Those are the official stats. During workouts Graham clocked a 4.1. That's part of the reason the Bills traded up for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Those are the official stats. During workouts Graham clocked a 4.1. That's part of the reason the Bills traded up for him. link? because that would be by far the fastest 40 time clocked. Edited May 14, 2015 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) Those are the official stats. During workouts Graham clocked a 4.1. That's part of the reason the Bills traded up for him.pro day? If so add a couple tenths of a second and that's his time. Edited May 14, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Graham, who stinks, clocked a 4.1 40-time during his combine workouts. Goodwin, who stinks, has also been clocked under 4.20. They are both track stars who cannot catch a football well. Whether they are weapons is highly debatable and remains to be seen. They are players with similar skill sets, and more than likely both are on the bubble to make an NFL roster this season. None of the numbers you toss out here can be substantiated by any searching around the web that I've performed, would you mind posting a link to support your statement? As to who's a weapon, I'd call a guy that produces 13 first downs on 17 receptions, and scores 3 TDs (each over 40-yards) a weapon. He doesn't need to be an every-down player to be classified as one IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 None of the numbers you toss out here can be substantiated by any searching around the web that I've performed, would you mind posting a link to support your statement? As to who's a weapon, I'd call a guy that produces 13 first downs on 17 receptions, and scores 3 TDs (each over 40-yards) a weapon. He doesn't need to be an every-down player to be classified as one IMO. I heard Graham ran a 2.7 40 from his Grandma. I also heard that they really call Hogan 7-11 because that is his most likely place of future employment. I also heard Goodwin dropped 5 passes out of every 4 that were thrown his way. I made up all of these. What is real is that the Hogan fanboys will keep rooting against Goodwin in hopes that CH will make the team. The superior Goodwin, if hurt, can be replaced by Hogan who will be a street free agent anyway. Why not root for the Bills to get better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Goodwin had a 3.1 drop % in his rookie year (when he actually played), Hogan had a 3.3 drop % last year, and Graham had a 5.3 in 2013 and a 12.1 in 2012 . The data just doesn't support your feelings. It really indicates that Hogan and Goodwin catch the ball pretty well and Graham doesn't. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2014/ If Goodwin can stay healthy, he's damned talented. Not sure how to prove that in pre-season though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I have to say I disagree with a lot of posters I respect on this issue. I'm taking a swiss army knife over a corkscrew every time. Hogan might just be be kind of "ok" at everything but that makes him a versatile guy who can fill any of the three wideout slots. I don't agree with comparing Goodwin to TJ Graham, he clearly has better hands, but he still isn't the greatest route runner in the world, I'm not convinced by his vision in terms of where the space opens on the field and his injury record worries me greatly. Whilst it wouldn't surprise me to see Goodwin get hot in camp and for everything to suddenly click into place for him (because he has the talent no question) if you told me today I had to pick one of Hogan and Goodwin for the roster I'm picking Hogan. That could change... but Goodwin will have to show me enough to prove he isn't a corkscrew... because whilst a corkscrew is great when I want wine.... with a swiss army knife there isn't an alcoholic drink in the world I can't get into. Ok enough of the analogy already..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000283521/Goodwin-shows-off-his-speed Remember when Goodwin did something productive, and EJ hit a deep throw? Nah, neither of those things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts