Bills Fan since '64 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Orton was planning to retire but didn't tell anyone. Marrone was planning to opt out and kept it to himself. How does the decision to start Orton against the Patriots look in that light? On the one hand, with Orton secretly hanging it up, the Bills might have thought playing him would be an extra look at him before next year's battle for the starting QB position. If the team had known he was done, they might have wanted to give EJ the chance to end the season on a high note like Geno did. On the other hand, if it was known that Marrone was planning to opt out, might management have instructed him to start EJ? His motivation in starting Orton is now suspect, because the W was more important to him for short term reasons (had a winning record in Buffalo, makes him more interesting to other teams) than for long term reasons (help remove the cloud around the future of the QB position). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Clearly, winning hurts the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Orton was planning to retire but didn't tell anyone. Marrone was planning to opt out and kept it to himself. How does the decision to start Orton against the Patriots look in that light? On the one hand, with Orton secretly hanging it up, the Bills might have thought playing him would be an extra look at him before next year's battle for the starting QB position. If the team had known he was done, they might have wanted to give EJ the chance to end the season on a high note like Geno did. On the other hand, if it was known that Marrone was planning to opt out, might management have instructed him to start EJ? His motivation in starting Orton is now suspect, because the W was more important to him for short term reasons (had a winning record in Buffalo, makes him more interesting to other teams) than for long term reasons (help remove the cloud around the future of the QB position). We obviously can't know but it all looks like a dick move. That said I think he might not have known Orton was going to retire. KO definitely seems to have that lone wolf streak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan since '64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Clearly, winning hurts the team. Winning that game didn't help the team, it only helped Marrone. EJ with a smile on his face all winter helps the team next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 My view of the decision to start and stick with Orton in that game doesn't change in hindsight, but I did (and do) think it was a selfish decision. You could say that winning is the bottom line, and I think there's something to that, but there's also the long-term future of the team to consider, and the decision makers could have used more information on E.J. My perception is that both Marrone and Whaley have been looking out for themselves first all along. Mostly that priority has lined up with the team's interest, but the Watkins trade and playing Orton in the last game was an exception. A thought experiment: Imagine a front office and coach who were looking out for the long term. You think foundations, not quick hits and bandaids. You think keeping your best players, not signing for marketing value. You trade picks one year for higher picks the following year so you can land that elusive QB. In short, your name is not Whaley or Marrone. If I'm Polian/Pegula, I extend Whaley's contract so he isn't so jumpy and scared, and I find a low-risk coach so he (or she) isn't looking over his shoulder, either. (By the way, I favor promoting Schwartz.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 My view of the decision to start and stick with Orton in that game doesn't change in hindsight, but I did (and do) think it was a selfish decision. You could say that winning is the bottom line, and I think there's something to that, but there's also the long-term future of the team to consider, and the decision makers could have used more information on E.J. My perception is that both Marrone and Whaley have been looking out for themselves first all along. Mostly that priority has lined up with the team's interest, but the Watkins trade and playing Orton in the last game was an exception. A thought experiment: Imagine a front office and coach who were looking out for the long term. You think foundations, not quick hits and bandaids. You think keeping your best players, not signing for marketing value. You trade picks one year for higher picks the following year so you can land that elusive QB. In short, your name is not Whaley or Marrone. Tom Dimitroff traded up for Julio Jones. Belicheck has wheeled and dealt picks but his hit rate is still pretty low. He has Brady by luck, and that's what makes everything else work. I'm not mad at the job Whaley has done. Our pick is at #19. That is not where a clear cut difference making QB is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) If I'm Polian/Pegula, I extend Whaley's contract so he isn't so jumpy and scared, and I find a low-risk coach so he (or she) isn't looking over his shoulder, either. (By the way, I favor promoting Schwartz.) Why? I like what Schwartz has done with our D. Who wouldn't? Schwartz had a ton of talent in Detroit and couldn't get the bus turned around. Team was perennially undisciplined, on both sides of the ball. Edited January 1, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Tom Dimitroff traded up for Julio Jones. Belicheck has wheeled and dealt picks but his hit rate is still pretty low. He has Brady by luck, and that's what makes everything else work. I'm not mad at the job Whaley has done. Our pick is at #19. That is not where a clear cut difference making QB is coming from. Yea there is very slim chance the Bills would have found the QB of the future at 19 and even if they finished a bit worse by not picking Sammy, I still can't imagine, with the defense, they would be picking top 10 or even top 5. So, no shot at the best QBs in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan since '64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Our pick is at #19. That is not where a clear cut difference making QB is coming from. True, if you ignore these draft picks: Andy Dalton (35) Tony Romo (Undrafted) Aaron Rodgers (24) Tom Brady (199) Drew Brees (32) Colin Kaepernick (36) Russell Wilson (75) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Clearly, winning hurts the team. Because clearly it would be impossible to score 10 points, which is more than 9, with anyone but Orton. True, if you ignore these draft picks: Andy Dalton (35) Tony Romo (Undrafted) Aaron Rodgers (24) Tom Brady (199) Drew Brees (32) Colin Kaepernick (36) Russell Wilson (75) I would take Dalton off that list. Yes he makes a difference, but the difference he makes tends to help the opposing team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Marrone is a prick. He belongs with the Jets. Can't wait to see him and the NYC media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 True, if you ignore these draft picks: Andy Dalton (35) Tony Romo (Undrafted) Aaron Rodgers (24) Tom Brady (199) Drew Brees (32) Colin Kaepernick (36) Russell Wilson (75) 3/7 of your list would be available at 50. 6/7 of your list would be a pretty easy trade up away if it were necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 This was a smart business decision by Marrone. The odds of him having a winning record next year are slim to none. Now he gets to double dip and parlay his 9-7 with the Bills into another HC gig without the humiliation of getting fired to do so. Schwartz was the real X-factor in going 4-0 against the NFC north. Without his experience against those teams the Bills don't even make it to 8-8. No veteran QB to lean on and no first round pick going into a year that he is likely to be fired anyways. He made the right decision in my book. Loyalty is for suckers. Money talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 3/7 of your list would be available at 50. 6/7 of your list would be a pretty easy trade up away if it were necessary. But that's just it: by trading away this year's pick, Whaley threw away a chance to move up--or down for that matter. There will be all sorts of possibilities in play, and we'll be sitting on the sidelines. I'm not saying that trading up or down will always produce or good player, or that we could get definitely land a good QB at 19, but at least we would have had a chance to do so. Because Whaley fell in love with Watkins, we have only free agency to find a difference maker. Yes, Julio Jones is terrific, yes, we could have blown the 19th pick, and yes, Watkins is special. But we weren't one pick away from the playoffs, and Watkins was and is not a first-round pick better than the Beckham. Put it this way: I'd rather have Beckham and a chance at a Beluga or Bitonio or Beckham and a chance at a Tannehill or Kapernick than Watkins and a big nothing. That's not hindsight, either: the draft was widely recognized as the deepest for WR's in decades. Prudence is hard when you're a new, young GM eager to prove yourself. Whaley wanted to make a splash and persuaded himself it was best for the team. He didn't utterly blow it, but he could easily have had two studs instead of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Starting Orton was all about Marrone trying to get that 9th win to pad his resume. I said this before that game and its even more evident now. It's all about wins and losses for head coaches and Marrone cared more about that then seeing if EJ has in fact improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Orton was planning to retire but didn't tell anyone. Marrone was planning to opt out and kept it to himself. How does the decision to start Orton against the Patriots look in that light? On the one hand, with Orton secretly hanging it up, the Bills might have thought playing him would be an extra look at him before next year's battle for the starting QB position. If the team had known he was done, they might have wanted to give EJ the chance to end the season on a high note like Geno did. On the other hand, if it was known that Marrone was planning to opt out, might management have instructed him to start EJ? His motivation in starting Orton is now suspect, because the W was more important to him for short term reasons (had a winning record in Buffalo, makes him more interesting to other teams) than for long term reasons (help remove the cloud around the future of the QB position). What cloud gets removed with EJ playing in that game? If he plays well, are we still not signing or drafting QB's for next year? So, who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumblefish Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Fans only know what managements script them to know, will fans get the Marrone version, in a word NO, Marrone has repeated over and over he does not or will not talk about his contract, so the only side fans get is the ones the P's want, end of story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyto83TD Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Orton was planning to retire but didn't tell anyone. Marrone was planning to opt out and kept it to himself. How does the decision to start Orton against the Patriots look in that light? On the one hand, with Orton secretly hanging it up, the Bills might have thought playing him would be an extra look at him before next year's battle for the starting QB position. If the team had known he was done, they might have wanted to give EJ the chance to end the season on a high note like Geno did. On the other hand, if it was known that Marrone was planning to opt out, might management have instructed him to start EJ? His motivation in starting Orton is now suspect, because the W was more important to him for short term reasons (had a winning record in Buffalo, makes him more interesting to other teams) than for long term reasons (help remove the cloud around the future of the QB position). When will fans like you get it? EJ is NEVER going to be a franchise QB which is what we need. At best the kid will be a back up, period. He just doesn't have it between the ears, never has, never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Prudence is hard when you're a new, young GM eager to prove yourself. Whaley wanted to make a splash and persuaded himself it was best for the team. Sort of like Polian did in 1987, his second year as GM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY Nole Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 What cloud gets removed with EJ playing in that game? If he plays well, are we still not signing or drafting QB's for next year? So, who cares? If EJ plays that game - you get the benefit of putting 60 minutes of a question mark QB on film against live competition and one of the better defensive schemes in the National Football League -- so that coaches can analyze and diagnose what they have to work with in 2015. I think Reich or any next coach not named Schwartz would have highly valued such film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Heres the deal. If the Jets hire him then Marrone must suck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY Nole Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 When will fans like you get it? EJ is NEVER going to be a franchise QB which is what we need. At best the kid will be a back up, period. He just doesn't have it between the ears, never has, never will. Fans like you will never get that EJ has played 14 games that matter. In that limited time, he has produced as many moments that could project greatness (Carolina game and Baltimore game) as moments that could project bust (Houston game, San Diego game). Take your BS elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 If EJ plays that game - you get the benefit of putting 60 minutes of a question mark QB on film against live competition and one of the better defensive schemes in the National Football League -- so that coaches can analyze and diagnose what they have to work with in 2015. I think Reich or any next coach not named Schwartz would have highly valued such film. Of one more game? Sorry, I just don't think the benefits outweighing the risks. There's 14 games of tape, one more here or there isn't gonna make that much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Sort of like Polian did in 1987, his second year as GM... Touche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY Nole Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Of one more game? Sorry, I just don't think the benefits outweighing the risks. There's 14 games of tape, one more here or there isn't gonna make that much of a difference. FC - his last game on tape came in week four with a line that was a dumpster fire and his star receiver playing with injury. Not to mention all the time that he had to "learn" from our coaches and observe how a vet QB operates. I think it would have been a valuable option to see if/how much he has progressed. As it now stands - only Schwartz has any idea if the kid has progressed over the last 3/4 of his second NFL season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 FC - his last game on tape came in week four with a line that was a dumpster fire and his star receiver playing with injury. Not to mention all the time that he had to "learn" from our coaches and observe how a vet QB operates. I think it would have been a valuable option to see if/how much he has progressed. As it now stands - only Schwartz has any idea if the kid has progressed over the last 3/4 of his second NFL season. I get what you're saying. But we're going to sign or draft some more QB's either way. Long term, it's not gonna matter. The only thing that would change is the fans' hopes and dreams in the offseason if EJ played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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