Marrone in 2015

[boyst]

I think the benefits of continuity outweigh the so-called simplicity of finding a new OC--which I also don't believe is as easy as you're suggesting.

This is very much true. Still, bringing in someone like a Jake Locker tier QB (sorry he's the only one I ever remember other then Mallet) could be important. It could allow us to count Manuel as expendable. I don't like the idea of carrying 3 QB's on the roster next year but I don't like the idea of handcuffing ourselves to Orton/Manuel, either, so long as Hackett is the one holding he key.

 

and that might beg the question, is it easier to upgrade our OC? (i think options that are bigger upgrades than we likely see at QB will be available)

and will that upgrade atleast help put a bandaid on the QB problem? (i think it would be hard to argue that hackett is getting 100% out of orton, even if you accept ortons not very good)

 

i wouldnt advocate blindly firing hackett on the flight home from the final game and not having a guy in line, but i do think that the team would be well served to have whaley discretely investigating what options would be available and willing to accept the job

It has not been done often or easily, but bringing in an Offensive Guru as a Quality coach or assistant may pay off. I do not know Hackett enough to know but Marrone I do. Marrone is a Czar type of coach, IMO. Hackett may be more humble and willing to get assistance from outside sources. He is still very young, very green and raw. There may be a good opportunity for him to expand his knowledge with some mentoring. Summoning the likes of the ghost of Bill Walsh to the organization or who knows who might be worthwhile. Maybe getting Jay Gruden to come in and help out at QB coach or assistant. I know that is a big step down but he was not ready for the big time and it'd be a good chance for him to let people forget about the Redskins fiasco.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Anyone see the Tweets about Brandon giving Marrone a vote of confidence saying he may not like all the play calls but he is doing a good job?

 

I dont remember them all word for word but maybe 26 or Yolo can post them

 

 

CBF

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I think the benefits of continuity outweigh the so-called simplicity of finding a new OC--which I also don't believe is as easy as you're suggesting.

I'm fine with continuity if it's working. They changed d coordinators (and a large part of the defensive staff) last year after a good year and improved quite a bit. The offensive coaching is bad and it's really hard to argue otherwise. I think that Marrone stays, Schwartz hopefully stays (but may have some head coaching chances) and Hackett goes.

 

There are lots and lots of talented offensive minds out there now; it's an offensive game. I may get flamed for this but I'd have no issue whatsoever with Chan coming back as the OC. He moved the football with lousy talent. I'd be open to other options as well but think that he'd do well with the group (middle of the league anyways).

 

On the defensive side I would promote from within if Schwartz left. Donnie Henderson or Pepper Johnson would probably be the guy. There is something special with this group and the attitude with which they play. I don't want a different philosophy even if someone like Rex hit the market.

[The Big Cat]

I'm fine with continuity if it's working. They changed d coordinators (and a large part of the defensive staff) last year after a good year and improved quite a bit. The offensive coaching is bad and it's really hard to argue otherwise. I think that Marrone stays, Schwartz hopefully stays (but may have some head coaching chances) and Hackett goes.

 

There are lots and lots of talented offensive minds out there now; it's an offensive game. I may get flamed for this but I'd have no issue whatsoever with Chan coming back as the OC. He moved the football with lousy talent. I'd be open to other options as well but think that he'd do well with the group (middle of the league anyways).

 

On the defensive side I would promote from within if Schwartz left. Donnie Henderson or Pepper Johnson would probably be the guy. There is something special with this group and the attitude with which they play. I don't want a different philosophy even if someone like Rex hit the market.

 

I think we all remember Chan with misplaced fondness and then oversell the talent we have on offense to make that point.

 

That said, I wouldn't kick him out of an OC role in Buffalo, that's for sure.

 

But food for thought, here is a side by side, Chan's best year (2011)/This year:

 

PPG:

23.3 (14th)/21.5 (19th)

--keep in mind that our PPG has been pretty steady, whereas the 2011 Bills had a PPG in the last 8 games of 18.75

 

YPP:

5.7/5.0

 

Chan Gailey's offense benefited from coming on the heels of some SERIOUSLY poor units, the likes of which make even this year's look like the Greatest Show on Turf.

 

But we've definitely leveled off since then. As I said, I think the perceived regression is oversold.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I think we all remember Chan with misplaced fondness and then oversell the talent we have on offense to make that point.

 

That said, I wouldn't kick him out of an OC role in Buffalo, that's for sure.

 

But food for thought, here is a side by side, Chan's best year (2011)/This year:

 

PPG:

23.3 (14th)/21.5 (19th)

--keep in mind that our PPG has been pretty steady, whereas the 2011 Bills had a PPG in the last 8 games of 18.75

 

YPP:

5.7/5.0

 

Chan Gailey's offense benefited from coming on the heels of some SERIOUSLY poor units, the likes of which make even this year's look like the Greatest Show on Turf.

 

But we've definitely leveled off since then. As I said, I think the perceived regression is oversold.

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

[The Big Cat]

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

 

Well, Chan's 2011 team and its vaunted offense dropped seven in a row. They started out white hot then regressed BIG TIME. According to many here, the coaches, and only the coaches, are to blame for that.

 

But you're right, they lacked talent, which is what I've been saying up and down this board about every team since 2006.

 

So what happened in 2011? They started out 5-2, teams picked up on our limitations and forced us to do things we couldn't. It's exactly what happened to the 2014 Kyle Orton. There's one consistency here: talent.

Edited December 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[BmarvB]

I certainly don't think that we are loaded on the offensive side. We need a guard or 2 and at least a TE. We are still in search of a QB as well. With that being said this offense has more talent than 2011 for sure.

 

To an extent, yes the offense is more talented, but like you said, we're missing a quality QB, better guards, and a TE that can stretch the field deep. I have faith Whaley will fix most of it in the off season. Then the question will be how well can Hackett design the offense to get the most out of that talent once he has everything he needs to be successful?

 

2015 will be Marrone & Hackett's make it or break it year.

[NoSaint]

According to many here, the coaches, and only the coaches, are to blame for that.

 

i think at this point, outside a handful of the crazy fringe that you get on the internet with any topic - none of us are arguing that its ONLY the coaches. really, i think you are one of few thats arguing its totally one thing or the other.

[section122]

i think at this point, outside a handful of the crazy fringe that you get on the internet with any topic - none of us are arguing that its ONLY the coaches. really, i think you are one of few thats arguing its totally one thing or the other.

 

I just want to put some stats about other teams and coaches here....

 

I think we all think Andy Reid is a good offensive mind right? He and the Chiefs are averaging 1.1 more ypg and 1.4 more points per game

 

I think we all think that Jim Harbaugh is a good offensive mind right? He and the Niners are averaging 7.8 less ypg and 3.7 less points per game

 

I think we all think Bruce Arians is a good offensive mind right? He and the Cardinals are averaging .3 less ypg and 1.0 less points per game

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

Here are a few more items:

 

The top 6 offenses in points for are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Luck led teams with Philly being the outlier.

 

The top 6 offenses in ypg are led by Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Philly.

 

So of the top 6 offenses in the NFL 5 are doing it with talent and 1 is doing it with coaching.

 

Some more interesting tidbits:

 

Of the top 5 defenses by ypg (Seattle, Detroit, SF, Denver, and Buffalo) only Denver led by Manning is in the top 10 for offensive ypg.

 

Of the top 5 defenses in ppg (Detroit, Seattle, Arizona, Buffalo, and KC) none of them are in the top 10 in offensive ppg.

 

This speaks to just how difficult it is to field 2 top units barring having a stud qb (and sometimes even with one)

[NoSaint]

 

 

I just want to put some stats about other teams and coaches here....

 

I think we all think Andy Reid is a good offensive mind right? He and the Chiefs are averaging 1.1 more ypg and 1.4 more points per game

 

I think we all think that Jim Harbaugh is a good offensive mind right? He and the Niners are averaging 7.8 less ypg and 3.7 less points per game

 

I think we all think Bruce Arians is a good offensive mind right? He and the Cardinals are averaging .3 less ypg and 1.0 less points per game

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

Here are a few more items:

 

The top 6 offenses in points for are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Luck led teams with Philly being the outlier.

 

The top 6 offenses in ypg are led by Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Philly.

 

So of the top 6 offenses in the NFL 5 are doing it with talent and 1 is doing it with coaching.

 

Some more interesting tidbits:

 

Of the top 5 defenses by ypg (Seattle, Detroit, SF, Denver, and Buffalo) only Denver led by Manning is in the top 10 for offensive ypg.

 

Of the top 5 defenses in ppg (Detroit, Seattle, Arizona, Buffalo, and KC) none of them are in the top 10 in offensive ppg.

 

This speaks to just how difficult it is to field 2 top units barring having a stud qb (and sometimes even with one)

 

 

so your argument is that we could add any offensive coordinator out there, and they wouldnt do any better?

 

or is it fair to say that our qb is flawed, but our OC may also be a weak point? If memory serves the gaps used to be wider but we are still a top 5 team in average starting field position too, which is a nice gift from our d and special teams.

 

a team like san fran as a comp is interesting as they are getting more yards per drive, essentially the same points per drive, a better drive success rate (football outsiders number that is percentage of drives with a first down or ending in points), holding the ball longer per drive -- but we have them beat with fewer turnovers per drive and better field position (and more overall drives)

 

while their D is good (above average to top 5 in most of the following), we are top 2 in the league in yards per drive allowed, points per drive allowed, defensive drive success rate, 3rd in turnovers forced per drive

[section122]

so your argument is that we could add any offensive coordinator out there, and they wouldnt do any better?

 

or is it fair to say that our qb is flawed, but our OC may also be a weak point? If memory serves the gaps used to be wider but we are still a top 5 team in average starting field position too, which is a nice gift from our d and special teams.

 

a team like san fran as a comp is interesting as they are getting more yards per drive, essentially the same points per drive, a better drive success rate (football outsiders number that is percentage of drives with a first down or ending in points), holding the ball longer per drive -- but we have them beat with fewer turnovers per drive and better field position (and more overall drives)

 

while their D is good (above average to top 5 in most of the following), we are top 2 in the league in yards per drive allowed, points per drive allowed, defensive drive success rate, 3rd in turnovers forced per drive

 

Well this was in the post you quoted:

 

I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching.

 

 

My argument is that sometimes people are prisoners of what they see without comparison. Of course the 22nd rated offense could use improvement. My question is where does that improvement need to happen. I listed examples of "great offensive minds" that are hamstrung by lack of talent. I also listed talent that elevates what we think of the coaching (NE Coordinators is a perfect example of this). The point is we don't really know what we have in regards to coaching because the talent is not there. Of the 4 qbs that Hackett has had to work with would you rank any of them above the 22nd best starting qb? It is the rare case (Philly being the only one) that a coach can boost the talent he has to a top unit without much of the talent being top level.

[BmarvB]

"The Bills are legit, and Doug Marrone has done a fantastic job this year. Imagine if they had a quarterback ..."

- Adam Schein NFL Media columnist.

[rumblefish]

Why is it that people don't remember that Marv, didn't get to the top of the mountain right away, look at all that has been on this teams plate over the last two seasons, old adage applies "no pain, no gain", can Marone do better, that's the hope,

[paupmvp1995]

Adam Schein sums it up pretty well. We NEED an NFL QB on our roster. Right now, I am not sure we have one. Orton looked horrible this week. And seems to have lost any feel for giving our receivers even a chance at catching the deep ball. The last throw to Sammy wasn't even close. I honestly think that we would be a better offense at this point if we brought EJ in next week at Oakland. At least he can run. Orton missed Fred on those two screens early in the game. And than Woods over the middle late when noone was around him. My 11 yr old can make that throw everytime. Orton stinks, and plays w absolutely no passion. Whaley and Marrone's job in the offseason is to find two guys who can throw to compete for the starting job. Draft someone like Bryce Petty, and bring in a veteran. Heck, I think Charlie Whitehurst was throwing the ball better for Tennessee yesterday than Orton has in the past month.

 

We need to improve the O line also. What a regression for Cordy Glenn. He plays w zero passion and looks completely disinterested. Put Seantrel at LT and bring in another tackle or maybe Kuanjuo will be ready at rt tackle. And bring in two guards. We have an owner w bucks now. Upgrade the O line, (Pears and Urbik syanora. And take Cordy w you) bring in a QB who is at least average to above. And this team will be in the mix for a championship next year.

 

And as an aside. Noone brings in guys who contribute at the bottom of the roster like Whaley. How sweet have Maquise Gray, Bacari Rambo and Marcus Thigpen looked? Wow!! way to go DW...

[Kirby Jackson]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[VanCity]

 

 

 

clearly, you just dont see lee smiths high upside. hes a dynamic player. i was inspired when i saw him beating his chest after a play. he didnt even have to block anyone, as the defender was probably scared to engage him. on another play, i saw him spring a runner while behind the runner. #thelegendofleesmith

Beauty post. Good for a solid chuckle.

[The Big Cat]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

 

I agree that we're--at best--only making minimal progress toward the center as far as debating go.

 

So let's look forward, which is less of a gamble in 2015: continuity, or something new?

[BmarvB]

He is back for 2015 and unless someone hires Jim Schwartz the staff will remain the same. Marrone did a nice job of hiring Schwartz, but also the other Defensive assistants as a result of the Pettine departure.

We need an upgrade at two positions Guard and QB. That alone will make a huge difference. There are no great options at QB unless we draft a lesser commodity who turns out to be GOLD. Not likely. So we must improve our offensive line - PERIOD!!! Now the next question - is it Kyle, EJ or someone else?

 

I believe Kyle gives us no better chance of winning than EJ - I would rather see EJ in there because of his athletic ability - Kyle can not get out of his own way. I am not sure this coaching staff sees it that way - but we question accuracy with both EJ and Kyle. Why not go with the better athlete next year? Give them the full offseason and training camp - then equal reps with equal talent and see who can take us to the next level. We can talk about QB free agents all we want but tell me who is any better than what we currently have and at an affordable price? I just do not see anyone out there. Let go Bills - and as always wait til Next Year.

I would also suggest bringing in another veteran or two to compete as well, either by free agency or by trade. May the best man win the starting QB job (hopefully an improved EJ). All they have to do is provide an upgrade over what we have now while EJ continues to develop. I'd give EJ one more year to show us something, or draft another QB in 2016.

Edited December 15, 2014 by BmarvB

[Augie]

I like Marrone and what he's done for the most part. They play a physical style which I love. We have a few holes that need to be filled, but Hackett is not getting the most out of what he's got to work with. It's more than just play calling, it also seems to be philosophy. CJ up the middle on first and second does not play to his strengths. I'd like to see Hackett replaced, but what concerns me the most is he's really just an extension of Maronne, who I like. So, I'm a bit confused....

[NoSaint]

 

 

I agree that we're--at best--only making minimal progress toward the center as far as debating go.

 

So let's look forward, which is less of a gamble in 2015: continuity, or something new?

 

depends on the plan for each. id like something new, but not without assurances before pulling the trigger. i dont want to fire hackett for any warm body possible, but i do think we can upgrade. if those upgrades dont shake loose, or have interest than lets stick with what weve got. i dont think we fire him just for the sake of firing though.