Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Okay. let's assume Chandler was off the field and was gassed, or whatever. KC is showing a look that you gameplanned a very specific play for. A play that you are convinced will result in an open field for your TE. Do you not run it because Lee Smith is that TE? Even though all he has to do is catch the ball, and he's getting 6-7 easy? I'm thinking you'll say yes, but I don't think ol' Lee had a single drop this year before KC. He has a TD, though. That was also designed for him and worked. He does have that play where he tripped over the goal line (I think that was last year). To answer your question though I would have run it to Gragg. He is not very good either but has some athletic ability and could have potentially turned it up the field. I'm not saying that it would have ever been a huge play but why throw it to a guy that would make less yards with all things being equal? Edited November 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Unless it was a particularly egregious defiant act by Williams, and I am betting that it is not from my question to Whaley about him last Sunday where Whaley specifically said that MW has never been a problem, and loves being on the team, there is no justification IMO to not have him play. He does one thing great and a lot of things well. He's done it dozens of times in regular season NFL games. We got him specifically to do that thing. We are clearly having specific trouble with the one thing he does great. There is no question in my mind it's an enormous coaching mistake. The whole thing compounds when you assume marrone knew more or less what he was signing up for with him. Lots of talent but rough around the edges off the field. Unless it's some major stuff going on, you find a way to at least get him some reps near the end zone in packages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 It's also a CLEAR indication that the coach and GM aren't on the same page. Whaley acquired MW to do that one thing. Marrone won't use him. The signs of discord continue, and are troubling. There's some truth to this I think. I suspect that if a power struggle ensues Whaley will be the one that wins out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 He does have that play where he tripped over the goal line (I think that was last year). To answer your question though I would have run it to Gragg. He is not very good either but has some athletic ability and could have potentially turned it up the field. I'm not saying that it would have ever been a huge play but why throw it to a guy that would make less yards with all things being equal? He had that Jets TD two weeks ago. The play action goalline one. To answer your question, I'll have to guess, only because I don't know the percentages of snaps or anything like that. I think Gragg being in that position would be a clear indicator that it was a passing play. The defense would ask "why put in your worst blocking TE for an apparent run play, oh wait, it's probably play action!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 He had that Jets TD two weeks ago. The play action goalline one. To answer your question, I'll have to guess, only because I don't know the percentages of snaps or anything like that. I think Gragg being in that position would be a clear indicator that it was a passing play. The defense would ask "why put in your worst blocking TE for an apparent run play, oh wait, it's probably play action!" The real answer is that all of the TEs are bad. They tried to fix that last year and didn't have a chance. I expect that position to improve this offseason. Chandler is a #2 (and a decent one) but Smith and Gragg are arena league players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is the only guy who matters in punt coverage the guy who makes the tackle? No, but is there not another guy on the active roster who could make the same contribution that Larry Dean is making, AND not cause them to sit a guy who has scored plenty of TDs and had 1000 yard seasons? It just seems like shooting yourself in the foot to not put the most talented players in the field. They can't lie and call it a "numbers" thing like they were a few weeks ago, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 He had that Jets TD two weeks ago. The play action goalline one. To answer your question, I'll have to guess, only because I don't know the percentages of snaps or anything like that. I think Gragg being in that position would be a clear indicator that it was a passing play. The defense would ask "why put in your worst blocking TE for an apparent run play, oh wait, it's probably play action!" I think you're overthinking it. Putting your worst players in a position to execute their weaknesses isn't creative or deceptive - it results in drops, fumbles, penalties, and all those things you say aren't the coaches fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 He had that Jets TD two weeks ago. The play action goalline one. To answer your question, I'll have to guess, only because I don't know the percentages of snaps or anything like that. I think Gragg being in that position would be a clear indicator that it was a passing play. The defense would ask "why put in your worst blocking TE for an apparent run play, oh wait, it's probably play action!" Not necessarily. I believe that a game or two ago, Gragg had the most or second most snaps of all the TEs. He dropped one too on sunday right in his hands. The three TE sets are stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think you're overthinking it. Putting your worst players in a position to execute their weaknesses isn't creative or deceptive - it results in drops, fumbles, penalties, and all those things you say aren't the coaches fault. Exactly!! It goes back to Hackett being 1 step ahead of common sense. I am just waiting for him to try one of those plays where someone fakes dead or barks like a dog because the defense won't see it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 a It's not really a question of whether Dean is generally more valuable than Williams, but rather whether he's more valuable to the Bills than Williams. If Williams doesn't represent an improvement over the other WRs on the roster, but Dean is a substantial improvement over whoever else would man his spot on ST then it's conceivable that he could be more valuable even if he has less overall value in the league. It just seems like a marginal improvement at best, no? Couldn't Preston Brown fill that role? Powell? Searcy? I'll buy that the results have been better on ST, but it seems to me that they are better led with Graham and Dixon in the fold and this is a greater reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I don't want to have to quote all of you, so let me ask you all this. Was Chandler on the field for that play? You know, when some of the most knowledgeable posters on this board, who all disapprove of Hackett, have come out and said, "playcalling looked much better, and didn't provide too much impact on us losing," it's time to slow down. I would generally agree. I will say it is the timing of the poor decisions though. I agree for most of the game play calling was better, but it was a crucial moments it failed us. I don't think that's debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The real answer is that all of the TEs are bad. They tried to fix that last year and didn't have a chance. I expect that position to improve this offseason. Chandler is a #2 (and a decent one) but Smith and Gragg are arena league players. If that;s your stance on our TE talent, then Hackett getting the production he has out of that squad has to be a positive, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Not necessarily. I believe that a game or two ago, Gragg had the most or second most snaps of all the TEs. He dropped one too on sunday right in his hands. The three TE sets are stupid. But we have a guy we picked off the practice squad that we were willing to let walk but no one wanted him, a guy that was cut by the pats following his first training camp and a 7th round project.... Clearly we've prioritized this package. Edited November 11, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Also concerning ST, Marrone has used starters all over ST this season, something he didn't do much last year. Spikes plays. Hogan. Hughes. Bradham. etc. If he really wanted to he could use more and still play Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 If that;s your stance on our TE talent, then Hackett getting the production he has out of that squad has to be a positive, right? The combined 6 catches for 40 yards for smith and Gragg isn't impressive, and if they don't belong getting targets because we have better options I'm not sure more production from them would be a big positive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) The combined 6 catches for 40 yards for smith and Gragg isn't impressive, and if they don't belong getting targets because we have better options I'm not sure more production from them would be a big positive That's the point. How many TEs would have less production with the same amount of snaps that they have? To take it from another angle if that is the production that you are getting from those guys why are they playing so many snaps? It's not like the Bills have a good running game and they are contributing there. The Bills are playing bad players way too many snaps. Edited November 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Exactly!! It goes back to Hackett being 1 step ahead of common sense. I am just waiting for him to try one of those plays where someone fakes dead or barks like a dog because the defense won't see it coming. And it happens - even to the good ones. McCarthy having peppers run a slant in the redzone against the Saints a few weeks ago comes to mind. But man Hackett/marrone have a knack for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Bills fans defending the idiocy of this coaching staff, always amusing. Sitting a possible top 15 WR all year in order to help out his best bud the ST coach. Two kickers on the roster when the O line grades as the worst in the league. Its a darn shame Marrone isn't best buds with Hackett too, or maybe the offense would be better then 23rd. Better then 27th in in the league in three downs, and out percentage. 30th in first downs. 19th in 3rd down conversion, 26th in 4th down conversions. The Bills QB's with 24 sacks and 55 hits. Last in the league in red zone production. Last night I watched Chip Kelly & his coaching staff make Mr Butt Fumble look brilliant with 300 yards passing, 2 TD's. If only.... Edited November 11, 2014 by FeartheLosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Bills fans defending the idiocy of this coaching staff, always amusing. Sitting a possible top 15 WR all year in order to help out his best bud the ST coach. Two kickers on the roster when the O line grades as the worst in the league. Its a darn shame Marrone isn't best buds with Hackett too, or maybe the offense would be better then 23rd. Better then 27th in in the league in three downs, and out percentage. 30th in first downs. 19th in 3rd down conversion, 26th in 4th down conversions. The Bills QB's with 24 sacks and 55 hits. Last in the league in red zone production. Last night I watched Chip Kelly & his coaching staff make Mr Butt Fumble look brilliant with 300 yards passing, 2 TD's. If only.... Yes yes. Chip Kelly the greatest genius ever as a coach. Except when they sucked last year with Vick. And yes, let's crown Sanchez after one game without throwing two horrific picks. That's his first time doing that since 09, right? And he did it a week ago against the Texans. Sanchez, so hot right now. Mike Williams, a possible top 15 WR? Hmmm, what would you say if we traded a possible top 15 WR for a 6th round pick? Sounds like two professional NFL teams don't think too highly of the legend of Mike Williams post injury and stabbing. But, of course, Mike Williams ranks as a 2.1 on the "Jake Matthews" scale. And of course, no FTL post would be complete without somehow claiming our kickoff specialist is holding back the All-Pro Levitre replacement just sitting in the wings. Even Evel Knieval couldn't jump that gap in logic. Edited November 11, 2014 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 4 consecutive passed in the Red Zone, with 1st and 10, from the 14, are NOT the right calls. You basically KNOW you were going to 4 down territory, and then forced to throw because you gained not a single yard on three attempts. If he were a high school OC, he gets fired. Yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts