ESPN: Spygate, Did it Really Matter?

[RK_BillsFan]

Oh brother Giselle, get a clue. Fact- when BB didn't know what plays the other team was going to run, he hasn't won the SB. The Pats should have been treated like Lance and stripped of their titles.

 

Yes, lets strip the Pats of their titles and not every other team that has cheated since , oh idk, they first started recording games back in the 50s and 60s. Get out of here troll. This wasn't anything new. Every team did it. As a matter of fact, some teams used it against opponents. Hell Farve did it to the Bears, knowing dam well that they knew his audible signals. He called out the audible after telling his team to ignore it in the huddle, knowing the bears would shift. They won because of that play. If you are going to sit there and say the Pats are the only team that did it, you are delusional.

[JohnC]

 

And in related news, Barry Bonds thanks you for making excuses for him as well.

 

Winners win and losers make excuses. You get nowhere by being a crybaby.

[BADOLBILZ]

Some of you guys act like the teams totally disintegrated since then.... Even with the two losses in the SB he's been coach of one of the most winning franchises in the league, and maintained it for a decade (ie he's had to totally turn over the roster 3-4 times due to salary cap, and really most of his coaching staff and front office too).

 

I don't like him, but he's very good at coaching nfl football.

 

IMO BB is the greatest football coach of this generation and since the game is far more complex now than long ago......maybe ever.

 

However, IMO he did cheat his way to a GREAT extent to those SB wins.

 

I remember being in awe of his ability to take guys who had not talent and plug them in and get dominating results.

 

The bottom line is they knew where the ball was going on D and where the openings were going to be on O.

 

And it made for what appeared to be some amazingly intuitive football. It was a great story at the time. It was kind of a triumph for "thinking man's" football.

 

Unfortunately, it was a sham.

 

The success beyond that era is a product of four things:

 

1)BB is still a great coach. He still doesn't get outcoached. Ever.

 

2)Brady is a better QB and the passing rules are more in favor of his ability than ever.

 

3)NE has had better rosters....the SB teams were not their most talented teams of the past 14 years

 

4)There is a culture of winning that allows them to win several games every season before they get off the bus. The annual Bills game at Gillette is one of them.

[MattM]

The Patriot* defenders here also assume that they didn't continue to cheat in others ways when there were reports at the time accusing them of all kinds of other sketchy crap. In fact, not one but two members of the NFL competition committee said then that it was one team being brought before them over and over. You guessed it-- your NE Patriots*.

 

Personally, I think they are run from the very top down by like- minded men who believe if you aren't cheating you aren't trying. They just stopped doing what they got caught doing and we've seen the result of that. No Super Bowls since then.

 

BTW, on the stat stuff, I advise all to read the book cited above. I personally found a lot of the stat stuff in that book persuasive in showing the likelihood of cheating. The author basically had a stat PhD student look at the issue and come to some conclusions.

 

I also recall seeing in the PFT comments section of all places someone claiming to be a stat grad student with too much time on his hands who said he analyzed some relevant data that indicated to him that the Cheats* may have actually used the signals data in game in the form of unreal halftime adjustments and not just for future use against the opponent. With savant Ernie Adams involved, that wouldn't overly shock me if true.

[RK_BillsFan]

Really the point I'm trying to make here is that, yes they cheated, but so did everyone else. If you think the bills didn't do similar things would be blind faith. It's the pros. Everyone cheats in some way. Welcome to reality.

 

The Spygate event had no bearing on the pats ability to win nor win superbowls. If you think the Giants won because the pats didn't get to film them, you didn't watch the games and are simply letting your hatred get the best of you.

 

I hate the success the Pats have had in the last 15 years but it is not because they cheated. It's because for the most part they have simply lucked out on personnel and experiments that have yielded amazing results. It's all luck. Everything lined up for them and has done so for a while. Everything comes to an end and we can all see it. bb and Brady retire together and the afc east becomes one of the weakest divisions in the sport with no clear cut leader

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

When did The League go "wireless" with its tech?

[Doc]

Winners win and losers make excuses. You get nowhere by being a crybaby.

LOL! But apparently you get far by cheating.

 

Really the point I'm trying to make here is that, yes they cheated, but so did everyone else. If you think the bills didn't do similar things would be blind faith. It's the pros. Everyone cheats in some way. Welcome to reality.

 

The Spygate event had no bearing on the pats ability to win nor win superbowls. If you think the Giants won because the pats didn't get to film them, you didn't watch the games and are simply letting your hatred get the best of you.

 

I hate the success the Pats have had in the last 15 years but it is not because they cheated. It's because for the most part they have simply lucked out on personnel and experiments that have yielded amazing results. It's all luck. Everything lined up for them and has done so for a while. Everything comes to an end and we can all see it. bb and Brady retire together and the afc east becomes one of the weakest divisions in the sport with no clear cut leader

If everyone else was also cheating, why didn't Belichick say so? Last year when the Pats got flagged on a FG attempt and ultimately lost the game, Belichick had no problem saying that another team did it to them earlier in the season. So that allegation doesn't wash. Add in the fact that the NFL hurriedly destroyed the evidence and there's more to suggest there was some damning stuff on there.

[Green Lightning]

 

 

Yes, lets strip the Pats of their titles and not every other team that has cheated since , oh idk, they first started recording games back in the 50s and 60s. Get out of here troll. This wasn't anything new. Every team did it. As a matter of fact, some teams used it against opponents. Hell Farve did it to the Bears, knowing dam well that they knew his audible signals. He called out the audible after telling his team to ignore it in the huddle, knowing the bears would shift. They won because of that play. If you are going to sit there and say the Pats are the only team that did it, you are delusional.

 

Apparently your hero took it to new and sordid heights that was deemed so severe that the Commish had the evidence destroyed before the public could see it. And if everybody did it, it ain't the Commish's way to single out BB. Hey, great team and a HOF coach, but he cheated, got caught and only received a slap on the wrist. Deal with it and accept that to many other fans and ex-players, those SB wins deserve an * in the books.

[NoSaint]

If tyree bobbled that catch, it's amazing how many of the arguments would fall apart. The guys consistently had his team within inches of championships for a decade. Different personnel, coaches, front office ---- some of you are hanging far too much of his legacy on a freak catch. Even without Brady, he lead them to double digit wins.

 

If you want to say he wouldn't have the first couple rings - it's possible. But even if they lose those games and he had no rings, he's still got a stellar résumé.

[MattM]

Really the point I'm trying to make here is that, yes they cheated, but so did everyone else. If you think the bills didn't do similar things would be blind faith. It's the pros. Everyone cheats in some way. Welcome to reality.

 

The Spygate event had no bearing on the pats ability to win nor win superbowls. If you think the Giants won because the pats didn't get to film them, you didn't watch the games and are simply letting your hatred get the best of you.

 

I hate the success the Pats have had in the last 15 years but it is not because they cheated. It's because for the most part they have simply lucked out on personnel and experiments that have yielded amazing results. It's all luck. Everything lined up for them and has done so for a while. Everything comes to an end and we can all see it. bb and Brady retire together and the afc east becomes one of the weakest divisions in the sport with no clear cut leader

 

You can't throw out there something like "all teams cheat" without backing it up with facts. I've gotten really sick of that ridiculous argument from Pats* fans over the years.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Apparently your hero took it to new and sordid heights that was deemed so severe that the Commish had the evidence destroyed before the public could see it. And if everybody did it, it ain't the Commish's way to single out BB. Hey, great team and a HOF coach, but he cheated, got caught and only received a slap on the wrist. Deal with it and accept that to many other fans and ex-players, those SB wins deserve an * in the books.

 

If the saints fiasco showed us anything - it's that the nfl will hit a favorite team with huge punishments for something relatively league wide practiced, and do whatever they can do to keep evidence bundled up to contain the story.

 

It's weird how the two teams that I've recently heard the nfl fixed things for (pats post 9/11 and saints post Katrina) are the only two to suffer HUGE penalties at the hands of the nfl.

[ExiledInIllinois]

If tyree bobbled that catch, it's amazing how many of the arguments would fall apart. The guys consistently had his team within inches of championships for a decade. Different personnel, coaches, front office ---- some of you are hanging far too much of his legacy on a freak catch. Even without Brady, he lead them to double digit wins.

 

If you want to say he wouldn't have the first couple rings - it's possible. But even if they lose those games and he had no rings, he's still got a stellar résumé.

 

He didn't bobble it. End of story. Coughlin did just enough to cut the cheater off @ the pass.

 

If the saints fiasco showed us anything - it's that the nfl will hit a favorite team with huge punishments for something relatively league wide practiced, and do whatever they can do to keep evidence bundled up to contain the story.

 

It's weird how the two teams that I've recently heard the nfl fixed things for (pats post 9/11 and saints post Katrina) are the only two to suffer HUGE penalties at the hands of the nfl.

 

There you go using the word if again.

[NoSaint]

 

 

You can't throw out there something like "all teams cheat" without backing it up with facts. I've gotten really sick of that ridiculous argument from Pats* fans over the years.

 

Is it any worse than the opposite argument that no one else is?

 

Depending on how broadly you apply the word I'd guess that ALL teams bend the rules, and probably most teams will do something this season that would make their fans cringe. Not all, but a large number. Would you disagree with that?

[Doc]

If tyree bobbled that catch, it's amazing how many of the arguments would fall apart. The guys consistently had his team within inches of championships for a decade. Different personnel, coaches, front office ---- some of you are hanging far too much of his legacy on a freak catch. Even without Brady, he lead them to double digit wins.

 

If you want to say he wouldn't have the first couple rings - it's possible. But even if they lose those games and he had no rings, he's still got a stellar résumé.

And if the refs had called the tuck correctly, we likely never hear of the dynasty.

[NoSaint]

 

And if the refs had called the tuck correctly, we likely never hear of the dynasty.

 

Without the tuck, the pats aren't around the top of the pile for the next decade?

[ExiledInIllinois]

This whole matter is like speeding. Pats* get caught and say: "Well everybody else cheats." Then the judge says: "Well nobody else got caught, only you did." "But judge, I was going with the flow."

 

One is innocent until proven guilty in this country. Pats* got caught, they are guilty. Nobody else got caught, they are all innocent.

 

And, anyway... Where did this whole business of "everybody doing it" start... Nobody else was doing it or they would have been caught too.

[MattM]

Is it any worse than the opposite argument that no one else is?

 

Depending on how broadly you apply the word I'd guess that ALL teams bend the rules, and probably most teams will do something this season that would make their fans cringe. Not all, but a large number. Would you disagree with that?

 

Yes--as in life itself, some cheat more than others. To argue that "they all do it" as a justification without proof usually says more to me about the person saying it than anything else--that that's how they justify being a cheater to themselves, often with little or no evidence to the contrary, even if if the real world shows little likeness to the fantasy they've constructed to tell themselves that they're ok and not a cheater.

 

Do any of you honestly think for one minute that Ralph Wilson would have countenanced the kind of cheating that Kraft and the Pats* did? Remember how Big Bob gave Belicheat a new extension right after the Spygate fine and how rumors leaked out that in that extension he effectively paid Belicheat's fine? Remember how pretty much League-wide this was the team that folks in the League pointed to as pushing the envelope on every form of cheating? How Peyton Manning believed the opposing locker room was bugged? How Doug Flutie told a radio interviewer that as a Pat* he once picked up a QB helmet with the radio on and could hear the booth talking to the QB well past the cutoff time (Flutie shut up quickly about that one afterward, apparently). How an extra radio frequency was found on the Patriots* system? How at least two NFL coaches (Del Rio and Marinelli) complained to the League about their QB headsets going out at odd times playing in Gillette? How a team known as a place that aging vets went to seemingly regain a step had Rodney Harrison get caught using HGH, something the League doesn't test for and only got caught because he was dumb enough to use his own name and address to order it online? How many awful game changing calls went their way over the years?

 

Here's a link to one story about the NFL Competition Committee member--interestingly (as I've linked to it many times over the years) it seems to have been edited from its original form, which included at one time a litany of charges, but it still gets the idea across:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/football/11nfl.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C{%222%22%3A%22RI%3A12%22}&_r=0

[first_and_ten]

To answer the OP, of course it mattered. If cheating doesn't benefit you, what is the point in cheating? I feel that Belecheat got off easy too. What he did compromised the integrity of the game. The league punishes Sean Payton and Gregg Wilaims with lengthy suspensions for bountygate, justifiably so, but Belecheat doesn't do a day on the beach for compromising the integrity of the NFL? Ridiculous!! The league wanted the whole mess to go away, so they did their best to basically sweep it under the rug. And it's laughable to hear the Patriot apologists say "they all do it" as is if they can justify the actions of a cheater with this flimsy excuse. I wonder if these people had kids in school who were caught cheating on their exams if they would give their kids the same out? "Don't worry about it son, all your classmates do it"

Edited August 9, 2014 by first_and_ten

[RK_BillsFan]

You can't throw out there something like "all teams cheat" without backing it up with facts. I've gotten really sick of that ridiculous argument from Pats* fans over the years.

 

Farve vs Bears, Fave states that he knew the Bears had stolen their audible signals .... I stated this before. Also lets see where do I begin. Every coach covers their mouths with their play sheet so they won't be Lip Read (because people with camera's were zoomed in and teams would be able to get plays that way.)

 

Teams are constantly coming up with new ways to hide plays and signals in an attempt to throw off the enemy team that somehow, magically (cheating) have their calls and signals or even their snap count on a certain play or formation.

 

Stolen and missing playbooks (ipads in this generation)

 

Signing players from opposing teams, just to ask them questions about the team they came from and ultimately cut them because the roster spot isn't there (yes this happens).

 

The league also chose to destroy all records regarding the matter, because it was a league wide issue and would have tarnished the sport much like the PED scandal did for Baseball.

 

All the crap that happened between the Raiders and the Steelers?

 

Do I need to go on?

 

And i'm no Pats fan. I'm simply pointing out that the majority of you guys are being overboard with your conclusion.

This whole matter is like speeding. Pats* get caught and say: "Well everybody else cheats." Then the judge says: "Well nobody else got caught, only you did." "But judge, I was going with the flow."

 

One is innocent until proven guilty in this country. Pats* got caught, they are guilty. Nobody else got caught, they are all innocent.

 

And, anyway... Where did this whole business of "everybody doing it" start... Nobody else was doing it or they would have been caught too.

 

The first part of your statement is correct. It's just like a speeding ticket. Everyone speeds, you just happened to get caught doing it. Moving to the last part, others were doing it, several players have come out and said it was the norm, it was especially easy to find people commenting on it at the time.

 

And if the refs had called the tuck correctly, we likely never hear of the dynasty.

 

Lets go one step deeper shall we? Bledsoe never gets injured. Brady never starts. The pats probably get to 1 more Superbowl, but Bledsoe is no Brady. He lives out his carrier and Brady loiters in backup limbo, maybe gets traded, who know's if he starts.

 

 

Back to other teams doing so. The Bronco's has a scandal surrounding it as well, or did we all forget about that? And it was after spygate. What was the teams defense? Oh we didn't ask the guy to do it and we didn't watch the tapes..........

 

 

 

moving on to some more interesting facts:

 

Prior to Goodell taking over as commissioner of the NFL in August of 2006 there was NO rule in place regarding videotaping.

 

The rules about taping have been added and edited since the event. But then, what about all the footage that teams watch as game film. Are you tell me, that teams don't have someone watching coaches for patterns or signals. Or that players aren't telling assistants to take note after a play when they come off the field. How many times do you hear a player say something like, "oh o saw him do this and it was the same as in a tape I watched, so I knew what to do" But hey, that's not cheating. Or, "I saw him call and audible in the first game of the year, and when we checked it out over all the games, we found a pattern and knew exactly where he was going to throw"....... Eagles after they raped Romo and the Boys.

 

 

This means video taping was essentially like PEDs. Is it cheating? Sure it is. Was it illegal before rules stated they were? NOPE. How many times have players been caught using new and strange methods to give themselves the edge. Look at the Tour de France. Blood doping has been out of control until recently. Hell it's technically good for you. But until you put it in the rule book, after 1 person gets caught, everyone and their mother is doing it. I mean look at the Dear Antler Spray crap with Ray Lewis.

 

While we're on the same note of cheating and PEDs, what about the all the players that take them, and either never get caught out get out on a technicality. Guess the Seahawk's are tarnished forever. Need to put an * or ~ next to their superbowl win, because not every player was clean.

 

Ending my little rant here, with this:

 

1)The patriots cheated. No denying it. They were not the only ones doing it, they were simply the first ones to get caught. Other teams use other methods to get an upper hand on teams and stealing plays and signals are still common place but simply much better hidden.

 

2) The Pats dynasty is built on a string of lucky events.

 

3) The Pats loses to the Giants in both games can be narrowed down to single plays in each game. The first being a miracle and the second being possibly the worst throw of Brady's career

 

4) Cheating will be a major part of sports from here until the end of time. It's just the way it is.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Yes--as in life itself, some cheat more than others. To argue that "they all do it" as a justification without proof usually says more to me about the person saying it than anything else--that that's how they justify being a cheater to themselves, often with little or no evidence to the contrary, even if if the real world shows little likeness to the fantasy they've constructed to tell themselves that they're ok and not a cheater.

 

Do any of you honestly think for one minute that Ralph Wilson would have countenanced the kind of cheating that Kraft and the Pats* did? Remember how Big Bob gave Belicheat a new extension right after the Spygate fine and how rumors leaked out that in that extension he effectively paid Belicheat's fine? Remember how pretty much League-wide this was the team that folks in the League pointed to as pushing the envelope on every form of cheating? How Peyton Manning believed the opposing locker room was bugged? How Doug Flutie told a radio interviewer that as a Pat* he once picked up a QB helmet with the radio on and could hear the booth talking to the QB well past the cutoff time (Flutie shut up quickly about that one afterward, apparently). How an extra radio frequency was found on the Patriots* system? How at least two NFL coaches (Del Rio and Marinelli) complained to the League about their QB headsets going out at odd times playing in Gillette? How a team known as a place that aging vets went to seemingly regain a step had Rodney Harrison get caught using HGH, something the League doesn't test for and only got caught because he was dumb enough to use his own name and address to order it online? How many awful game changing calls went their way over the years?

 

Here's a link to one story about the NFL Competition Committee member--interestingly (as I've linked to it many times over the years) it seems to have been edited from its original form, which included at one time a litany of charges, but it still gets the idea across:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/football/11nfl.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C{%222%22%3A%22RI%3A12%22}&_r=0

 

Sure, frame it so anyone that disagrees is probably a morally bankrupt cheater themselves.

 

As I said, I think it depends where you draw the lines. Are the pats the only team operating outside the letter of the law? No. Are they pushing further than the rest? Maybe.

 

Would you call lying on an injury report cheating? Or coaching players on how to break a rule without getting caught? I'd venture 32 teams do those.

 

Bounty gate? By my count tracing player comments - I believe I got up to 23 franchises with a player admission, or coached by Gregg (including us)

 

Do you think for a decade all these players, coaches, and front office employees came to the pats and saw these ideas in action for the first time and silently went on their lives after the pats without bringing them to other teams? Think the pats guys came up with them all on their own or saw it in other locker rooms before?

 

Think mangini was possibly out of the league because no one wanted to hire a guy that couldn't keep their secrets when he left?

 

Pumping in extra noise during home games?

 

The Seahawks have quite a few drug suspensions, players coached to push the boundaries and a coach that's shown he will break rules to win..... I don't like them either, but if pete Carroll is still a contender annually in 2023 ill say he's had a heck of a run.

Edited August 9, 2014 by NoSaint