Poloncarz confirms there are suitors who want to move the team

[GG]

This is the real essence of the situation, & why I've gone from confident the Bills would remain in WNY to very concerned, in the wake of the Clippers sale.

 

There is reason for that concern, but it is balanced on the other hand by the Bills lease agreement, penalties for moving, NFL's desire and very vocal political support to keep the team in Buffalo. I see the chances of Bills staying in WNY as greater than 65%

[thebandit27]

Re: Toronto, I was replying to Wayne Cubed's implication that the Toronto metro area and suburbs were realistically in play in terms of factoring in the market for the team to remain in Buffalo. Couldn't you figure that out?

 

Clearly that isn't the case. The same people thinking that were the same people arguing about how we were going to finally make the playoffs over the last 10 years.

 

I know exactly what you were saying, and you're incorrect. The Toronto market is absolutely in play, for both corporate dollars and individual ticket holders.

 

I also like how, in every single discussion of the team staying here, you run out of supporting facts so quickly that you revert to bringing up the team's record over the last 14 years as though it has any relevance in a business discussion.

 

Re: the latter, first of all you need to reread that.

 

Um, you said this:

 

I'm just curious how many fans still view Ralph as some great guy that really did what he could, or even a small amount besides throwing an anchor on the team, while it still sucks, to stick around for a few more seasons.

 

That's a fact, Wilson could have arranged, perhaps even posthumously, to have sold the team to someone willing to keep it here. The other fact is that he did not do that. At this point, every dime that the estate makes is pure profit off of his original purchase price of $25K, which in today's NFL terms is about a penny. I guess $800M, even after taxes, isn't enough for his family to live on.

 

And then you said this:

 

They're not saying. Isn't that nice of them. My guess is that yes, they do. Otherwise they would come out and say it. Seems like every day now we're hearing about one more thing that screws us over. Just get it all out already. Why these stupid games with the fans. I'm so pissed at Wilson.

 

And I explained it to you quite clearly here:

 

First off, I don't make bets with random strangers on the internet.

 

Second, why do you think any trust would openly distribute the restrictive terms of a billion-dollar sale prior to bidding? You claim to understand business, and then assume they'd give away any leverage they could possibly have in the sale of the team by doing that?

 

No offense Mr. Ghost, but you don't seem to be very transaction-savvy.

 

If Wilson wanted that the only way to have secured it would be to have sold it himself, and then trusted that the person he sold it to, was being honest. No one can determine where a business owner locates his business for the long-term future. That's absurd.

 

You guys on the side of this argument that says that the team remains in Buffalo chances are 90% are dreaming. I'd say that it's more like 10%. If Buffalo didn't already have a team those chances dwindle to 0%.

 

You're right...that could never happen:

 

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/30/report-language-in-purchase-agreement-states-steve-ballmer-will-not-move-clippers-from-los-angeles/

[Pondslider]

San Diego, Jacksonville, St. Louis.

 

But as far as I know those teams aren't for sale, which is why billionaires are starting to line up to bid on the Bills regardless of how difficult it may be to move them. That's what lawyers are for. And I don't think the Bills are so "storied" as to make them untouchable. The Browns have a history that goes back further than the Bills and history has been pretty kind to Art Modell outside of Cleveland. I'm sure an owner moving the Bills would love to leave behind the history of the team like Modell did and get to start over in whatever city he wants without having to pay expansion fees.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Pondslider

[thebandit27]

Can we see some documentation that it isnt' so?

 

Common sense, reason, and reading between the lines go far in situations like this.

 

I'll side with myself, who argued two months ago that this nonsense about the team taking years to sell was simply that, nonsense. Meanwhile, everyone rejoiced because they thought that bought us more time too, and that shortly thereafter fell flat too.

 

Honestly, the writing's on the wall. I want the team to stay as much as you or the next Bills fan, it's not like I want to see the leave the city. Unless of course Brandon and Littmann and Overdorf would continue to run the team for 20 more years, in which case I don't care, but presumably a new owner would change that.

 

Pretending that Wilson has done something that realistically makes no sense, pretending that Buffalo's bigger than it is financially, pretending that NYS is even among the top few states that isn't broke, pretending that Erie County has any leverage whatsoever, etc., is a fool's game. If you want to temporarily believe that, then feel free.

 

As everyone said earlier, Wilson's "big gift" to us was this lease that supposedly keeps the team here thru 2020. But I wouldn't even put a confederate dollar on that happening.

 

I will ask you again (in the hopes that this time you'll actually answer):

 

Why would publicizing the terms of the trust gain anything for the sellers' side?

[dollars 2 donuts]

The league would not want to see a scenario like this play out. Teams generally move for two reasons, lack of a facility and lack of fan support. Neither appear to be an issue with the Bills going forward. Given that moving for the sake of higher revenues while an obvious objective of any team might be too blantant obvious for the league to consider. And the bid process is not a auction, but rather an evaluation of many factors one of which is price. Along with this several owners have already gone on record as saying their preference to keep the team in WNY given great fan support and concrete plans for a new stadium in place. The votes to support relocation might not be there. I suspect much of what is happening with the new stadium proposals is designed to have a plan in place prior to the bid reviews, making support for relocation harder to come by with the owners.

 

The other thing is I am just weary of the LA story and if that happens it would be a major shock to me. If the decision process was solely dollars and cents then one of the 30 teams not playing in the NYC market would have jumped at the chance to move to LA since they could surely make more money playing there. What's it been about 20 years without a team? Nobody rushing out to the west coast to pluck the gem of markets? How about the Packers, Steelers, Bengals? Hey, even the Cowboys should be able to make more in Los Angeles than Dallas. More viewers, more people, right?

 

From a football perspective I've never liked the LA market upon examination of the demographics. Teams have left there in the past and not much has changed. The region has lots of transplants from elsewhere that are fans of other teams with large Asian and Latin communities that don't put American football at the top of their sports preferences. You probably have a bigger group of hardcore fans in Buffalo. The only attraction is the corporate sector but that doesn't fill the stadium. And with the amount of noise and support the corporate box occupants produce you can hear a pin drop at the 50 yard line.

 

APB, thank you for your well thought out response and for pulling me off the the bridge!

 

 

I guess what does bother me is what I stated later on in the post. If ("If" mind you) this did happen, I do see the league taking measures to not let it happen like this again (too late the heroes...Thanks!), and someone in power finally saying, "ya know, there are a number of people within a reasonable radius of Buffalo."

[thebandit27]

But as far as I know those teams aren't for sale, which is why billionaires are starting to line up to bid on the Bills regardless. And I don't think the Bills are so "storied" as to make them untouchable. The Browns have a history that goes back further than the Bills and history has been pretty kind to Art Modell outside of Cleveland. I'm sure an owner moving the Bills would love to leave behind the history of the team like Modell did and get to start over in whatever city he wants without having to pay expansion fees.

 

He'd have to pay relocation fees instead. Make no mistake: the cost of moving this team is astronomical.

[Wayne Cubed]

So what's your point? That we can avail ourselves of a market that has never been considered part of Buffalo's market?

 

Why are you arguing the points that I made? If you simply want to hear yourself argue, please pick another target.

 

If Toronto's a market in that way, the team will be in Toronto. People that think that we can tap that market with a team here in Buffalo, to the extent that it makes a difference in this scenario anyway, are the same types of people that thought that with the Fast Ferry in Rochester Torontoans would flock to Rochester to shop at the malls.

 

Wow. You are all over the place.

 

First, you questioned another poster that there were 7-10 million people within 100 miles of Buffalo. I showed you that in fact, there are that many, in Toronto.

 

Second, you made a point that Toronto has been near Buffalo for ages and alluded to the fact that the Bills haven't tapped that market so they never will. To which I again showed you that Buffalo is not allowed to and only recently has been allowed to advertise there.

 

Bringing back to the original point that a poster, who you responded to, was trying to make is there are 7-10 million people within 100 miles of Buffalo that the NFL won't consider to be part of Buffalo's market. If they would, it would put the Bills as the 4th highest TV market in the NFL. And the Bills have got the ball rolling in trying to market towards Toronto, uh hello Toronto series.

[Ronin]

Why can't they buy it now? Team wasn't for sale years ago but it is now and it's not necessarily going to highest bidder. 4 person committee that votes plus NFL owners have to approve.

 

They can buy it now. Who said they can't besides a roomful of people here about a month ago talking about how the sale would take years. I was about the only one I saw that disagreed and said that the sale would happen much more quickly than the several years that were splashed all over the news. In fact, amidst a slew of whining, pretty much everything that I pointed out made sense has happened.

 

Next up, we'll start hearing about the varying "problems" with the four (or was it three?) chosen sites for the stadium survey.

 

After that, perhaps even later this summer, talk about how keeping the team in the region is unlikely after 2020 with the team perhaps even moving sooner than that.

 

Am I mystical? Do I have a crystal ball? No. I just have common sense and understand that it's the filthy rich and corrupt politicians that run this world. You guys all sit here and talk as if you rub shoulders with billionaires and corrupt politicians and know the innerworkings of the money world. Sorry to break to you, but they don't give a crap about you. It's all about the new next owner of the team, that's it. If you think that the Wilsons care about you, lol, then I don't even know what to say. If Ralph didn't care enough to take care of this business while he was alive, certainly no one in his estate does. Thinking otherwise is foolish.

 

But you guys will think what you want to. You won't submit yourselves to reason. The same way that people think that Watson is going to somehow achieve the status that no other rookie WR ever has this season and propel us into the playoffs.

 

Message boards, the stuff that fairy tales are made of.

[thewildrabbit]

How does Polancarz acknowledging there are bidders looking to move the team turn into "OMG THE TEAM IS GONE!"

sheer panic

 

Like I stated earlier in this thread, we already knew of several potential buyers that want to move the team to Toronto.

[Ronin]

This is the real essence of the situation, & why I've gone from confident the Bills would remain in WNY to very concerned, in the wake of the Clippers sale.

 

Exactly. But keep in mind, it's your opinion that's changed, not the circumstances. The circumstances have been in play for decades.

[Wayne Cubed]

But as far as I know those teams aren't for sale, which is why billionaires are starting to line up to bid on the Bills regardless of how difficult it may be to move them. That's what lawyers are for. And I don't think the Bills are so "storied" as to make them untouchable. The Browns have a history that goes back further than the Bills and history has been pretty kind to Art Modell outside of Cleveland. I'm sure an owner moving the Bills would love to leave behind the history of the team like Modell did and get to start over in whatever city he wants without having to pay expansion fees.

 

And the NFL was left with egg on it's face after the Cleveland debacle. Why do you think they awarded Cleveland and Houston teams, both who were relocated, when a Los Angeles team was put forward at the same time? They chose Cleveland and Houston over a Los Angeles.

[thewildrabbit]

There is reason for that concern, but it is balanced on the other hand by the Bills lease agreement, penalties for moving, NFL's desire and very vocal political support to keep the team in Buffalo. I see the chances of Bills staying in WNY as greater than 65%

As do I, as do I.

 

Si far I haven't heard of one mega billionaire who would be willing to step up and buy the team, move them and build a new stadium in LA. The biggest drawback that I see is getting that stadium built, as many many groups have wanted to build one and have gotten nowhere with the city.

[Ronin]

Wow. You are all over the place.

 

...

 

Bringing back to the original point that a poster, who you responded to, was trying to make is there are 7-10 million people within 100 miles of Buffalo that the NFL won't consider to be part of Buffalo's market. If they would, it would put the Bills as the 4th highest TV market in the NFL. And the Bills have got the ball rolling in trying to market towards Toronto, uh hello Toronto series.

 

LOL This couldn't be any funnier. I'm all over the place?

 

You speak as if you've lived under a rock for the last four seasons.

 

Here, I'll clue you in, that "Toronto Series" was an epic failure, so much so that they're backing out of it.

 

Trying to reason with people here is beyond the pale. Sadly, the realities are going to begin unfolding and you nor any other Bills fans, including me since we all want the same thing, aren't going to be happy.

 

The difference between me and you, and others, is that I'm calling a spade a spade and not going to be shy about labeling Wilson what he really was, which was hardly a friend of the fans as he built up a legend for. He was an idiot in terms of building a good football organization and outside of Polian's influence has the most futile NFL franchise in history. When we consider that Polian wa not hired by design, but was fired [by Wilson directly] by design, that merely adds fuel to that fire.

 

Now this, for years, and without any evidence whatsoever we can add, all we heard about is that Wilson did all that he could do to keep the team in Buffalo. Now we find out that we're a roll of the dice and "lucky snake-eyes" away from not even having a team when "doing everything he could to keep the team here" was quite easily achieveable while he was alive.

 

Let's face facts, Wilson, being from Detroit, cared about Wilson and Wilsons, not about you or I. Posthumously, if you or anyone else thinks that's going to change, and that Mary Wilson or anyone else in the trust cares about us as fans more than Ralph did, then you're nuts.

 

It really is that simple apart from Buffalo simply not cutting it in terms of being an NFL caliber city any longer, the struggles of which have been detailed over the last decade. No need to get into that again since apparently you and others seem to think that luxury suites sell just fine when the team has documented its struggles in doing so.

 

I'm just curious when others are going to be calling that proverbial spade a spade and coming clean on the notion that Wilson didn't do anything for us besides some lease that buys a few more seasons, of what, horrid play under the same group of lemmings that run the team now.

[CodeMonkey]

Does the team have to be bought by the highest bidder? Does the Wilson family have any say in who buys the team?

Mrs. Wilson is one of the Trustees is my understanding. No one here knows the details of the trust, and the only people that do know are not talking.

So everyone here and in the press is just speculating. Typically the trustees have the responsibility to get the maximum money they can for any asset attached to a trust. So for example if you were the trustee of a trust worth a billion dollars, you could not sell it to your brother for $1. But who knows what wiggle room Mr. Wilson may have had written into this trust.

 

He'd have to pay relocation fees instead. Make no mistake: the cost of moving this team is astronomical.

Not astronomical to multi-billionaires who deal with large corporation financials every day. To them it is simply a cost of doing business that is one factor into their decision of whether or not to buy an asset and how much to offer. But it would be pretty astronomical to any group that was struggling just to put together enough cash to purchase the team.

Edited June 2, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[KDIGGZ]

if the team is sold to someone that is going to move them then i will boycott all future games and picket in front of the stadium and throw eggs at all of the traitors that try and enter. i don't think any owner could handle a stadium that's completely empty for 5+ seasons. not to mention the black eye it will give the NFL if the news shows the protesters in a sympathetic light every sunday. we can make a difference if we stick together, i really believe that. i wouldn't be surprised if some of the anti bon jovi stuff that is out there already has slightly disuaded him from bidding. they will still bid but maybe they won't fight for it as much as they would have. i still think we need to do more. anti bon jovi cd burning party at the stadium would fun

Edited June 2, 2014 by kdiggz

[zonabb]

Brandon's silence on the "fiduciary duty" question speaks volumes. He doesn't want to publicly state that this is the obvious requirement and potentially quell bidding. I would argue this spells out the reality. Now, the bigger question is what role does the NFL play in this, or can they? Do they want it where every time a team needs/demands a new stadium in a smaller market (there are lot of small market on the context of the CHI/LA/NYC markets BTW) that relocation is an open option so that they can basically chase the top 32 markets all the time. If that's the case, they've turned unmistakably from an entertainment entity to a money machine not unlike GM or any corpoation seeking maximum profits over all else.

[Pondslider]

He'd have to pay relocation fees instead. Make no mistake: the cost of moving this team is astronomical.

Based on what the NFL said the relocation fee would be for LA in 2011: http://www.footballphds.com/2011/12/19/nfl-in-la-relocation-fees-for-los-angeles-currently-at-275-million/ and the estimated expansion fee in 2012 http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2012/02/04/nfl-owners-to-split-over-2-billion-when-league-adds-two-teams/ a potential owner looking to relocate would be paying a slightly more most likely, but if they are that rich it's worth it to have the guarantee of getting the team now whereas who knows when the league might be expanding again.

[CodeMonkey]

if the team is sold to someone that is going to move them then i will boycott all future games and picket in front of the stadium and throw eggs at all of the traitors that try and enter. i don't think any owner could handle a stadium that's completely empty for 5+ seasons. not to mention the black eye it will give the NFL if the news shows the protesters in a sympathetic light every sunday. we can make a difference if we stick together, i really believe that. i wouldn't be surprised if some of the anti bon jovi stuff that is out there already has slightly disuaded him from bidding. they will still bid but maybe they won't fight for it as much as they would have. i still think we need to do more. anti bon jovi cd burning party at the stadium would fun

It would not be empty. Plenty of people would go and enjoy the last few seasons. And even if they did not, the amount lost due to ticket non sales is nominal compared to the TV revenue. That few million dollars a year would not hurt someone like a Larry Page for example enough to deter him from his long term goal.

[thebandit27]

Not astronomical to multi-billionaires who deal with large corporation financials every day. To them it is simply a cost of doing business that is one factor into their decision of whether or not to buy an asset and how much to offer. But it would be pretty astronomical to any group that was struggling just to put together enough cash to purchase the team.

 

I think we differ only on the semantics, as "astronomical" doesn't mean "not affordable". A billionaire still views billions as an astronomical price.

 

One of the misconceptions about the uber wealthy is that they do not value money the same way that average folks do; vis-a-vis "to them, a million dollars is like a dollar to you or I" (I should note that, I'm not saying you believe this, just using it as a commonly stated example). That's simply not true: to a billionaire, $1,000 is still worth $1,000...in fact, I once had a multi-milionaire business partner of mine tell me "to be perfectly honest, $1,000 is worth more to me than it is to some folks, if only because I have it to lose".

 

I say all that to say that even a person with billions in the bank still views a multi-billion dollar purchase as an enormous, ridiculous amount of money. Remember, you and I don't truly understand what that amount of money is worth--a person that has it does, and so to them the expense is real.

 

Know what I mean?

[Wayne Cubed]

LOL This couldn't be any funnier. I'm all over the place?

 

You speak as if you've lived under a rock for the last four seasons.

 

Here, I'll clue you in, that "Toronto Series" was an epic failure, so much so that they're backing out of it.

 

Yes, and you are still all over the place.

 

Did I say anywhere in my post whether the Toronto series was a success or failure? Nope. I wasn't even talking about it's merits.

 

I'll repeat it one last time, then I give up:

 

You denied that there was 7-10 million people within 100 miles of Buffalo. You are wrong.

 

You then jumped on Buffalo saying there was no way Buffalo could tap that market if they already hadn't. Again, your premise was wrong. Buffalo was not able to even advertise there until recently, so there was no way they could tap that market.

 

As you can see no where in my post have I said whether that marketing has been successful or not. That's a debatable point. What isn't is that there are 7-10 million people within 100 miles of Buffalo AND the Bills until recently weren't allowed to advertise in Toronto.