Chef Jim Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I would cite Tasker's point about offenders leaving only to be back in the system again, simple because the skills they have coming out are only conducive to hustling again. I am not suggesting that you offer the program to everyone in prison, but I have to believe there are offenders that fit a profile that makes them more likely to be chnaged by education programs. Plus there could be a way to earn/ pay back your degree by picking up extra work cleaning up bathroom, or painting prison walls, or cleaning up roads.. something... It isn't just about feeling good, its about attempting programs that improve the goal of our prison system- rehabilitation... may it works maybe is doesn't, but that doesn't mean don't try. it would be very interesting to see how much money will be spent on criminals that just end up back in the system. People who make terrible decisions in their lives tend to repeat those decisions regardless of their education level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 it would be very interesting to see how much money will be spent on criminals that just end up back in the system. People who make terrible decisions in their lives tend to repeat those decisions regardless of their education level. You have data on recidivism rates among individuals who obtain a Master's degree after commiting a crime earlier in their lives? I'd be interested in seeing that. Can you provide it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You have data on recidivism rates among individuals who obtain a Master's degree after commiting a crime earlier in their lives? I'd be interested in seeing that. Can you provide it? Of course I was talking out my ass but here's the thing. If this saves the states money (which if probably will) I would love to see every damn dollar this plan saves used to provide scholarships to to deserving individuals and not wasted by the govenrment. Or to see the amount saved returned to the taxpayers. This will only give the government more money to work with and as a small government person I don't see this as a win/win situation. I see it as a "let's all feel good" story. Unless I'm completely missing something which is very possibly the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 So the degree itself will keep them from recidivating? Cause there ain't no jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Of course I was talking out my ass but here's the thing. If this saves the states money (which if probably will) I would love to see every damn dollar this plan saves used to provide scholarships to to deserving individuals and not wasted by the govenrment. Or to see the amount saved returned to the taxpayers. This will only give the government more money to work with and as a small government person I don't see this as a win/win situation. I see it as a "let's all feel good" story. Unless I'm completely missing something which is very possibly the case. Understood, and that's fine. However from my vantage, I certainly think it's a better idea to make the government that we're currently stuck with more efficient while at the same time working to reduce it's size and scope. I also think we likely agree that a prison system is one of the proper roles of government, correct? So the degree itself will keep them from recidivating? Cause there ain't no jobs! There are jobs for people with useful degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Understood, and that's fine. However from my vantage, I certainly think it's a better idea to make the government that we're currently stuck with more efficient while at the same time working to reduce it's size and scope. I also think we likely agree that a prison system is one of the proper roles of government, correct? There are jobs for people with useful degrees. How does giving free or virtually free college degrees to criminals accomplish this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) How does giving free or virtually free college degrees to criminals accomplish this? As I said, I believe that having a prison system is within the proper and just functions of government. With that established as the base premise, it then falls to us to have that system meet it's goals which in my mind are: removing criminals from the streets in order to protect law abiding citizens and to punish the offenders, to rehabilitate those offeners who can be rehabilitated in order to make them less likely to re-offend and become functional and productive members of society, and to accomplish those stated goals as cost efficiently as possible. I believe an MBA program has the potential to reduce incarceration costs, as it would decrease recidivism. Edited February 21, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 As I said, I believe that having a prison system is within the proper and just functions of government. With that established as the base premise, it then falls to us to have that system meet it's goals which in my mind are: removing criminals from the streets in order to protect law abiding citizens and to punish the offenders, to rehabilitate those offeners who can be rehabilitated in order to make them less likely to re-offend and become functional and productive members of society, and to accomplish those stated goals as cost efficiently as possible. I believe an MBA program has the potential to reduce incarceration costs, as it would decrease recidivism......but will never reduce the size of government. You missed that last bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 it would be very interesting to see how much money will be spent on criminals that just end up back in the system. People who make terrible decisions in their lives tend to repeat those decisions regardless of their education level. Its a good point. But you have to wonder if people who made bad decisions reflect poor modeling/ upbrining from parents and influencers, or if they are hardwired for stupid. I do generally believe some people are hardwired for tough, law breaking lives and no matter what intervention they will likely always be in and out. The question is, who is a good prospect, and how does one identify them? In gut I am tending to say there will be failures than successes... but I sure would like to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) You missed that last bit. I don't believe the prison system is an area of government we need to "make smaller", as it's a proper role of government. It's the government that we're stuck with, and need to fund, no different than the military. Given that, the proper course of action is to make it more efficient (ie. cheaper for the tax payer), and to make government smaller by getting rid of the things that don't properly belong in the hands of government. Edited February 21, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Its a good point. But you have to wonder if people who made bad decisions reflect poor modeling/ upbrining from parents and influencers, or if they are hardwired for stupid. I do generally believe some people are hardwired for tough, law breaking lives and no matter what intervention they will likely always be in and out. The question is, who is a good prospect, and how does one identify them? In gut I am tending to say there will be failures than successes... but I sure would like to be wrong. It's not either/or. Poor "modeling/upbringing" from influence can effect the hardwiring of the brain in formative years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hey guys I just wanted to let you know I may not be posting here for awhile. I've just been sentenced to 4 years in prison for robbing a liquor store. Hey, give me a break I was thirsty and I left my wallet at home. But here's the good news. I'm getting my !@#$ing Master's Degree!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hey guys I just wanted to let you know I may not be posting here for awhile. I've just been sentenced to 4 years in prison for robbing a liquor store. Hey, give me a break I was thirsty and I left my wallet at home. But here's the good news. I'm getting my !@#$ing Master's Degree!! Enjoy your rectal stretch marks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Enjoy your rectal stretch marks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckinny Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 I would cite Tasker's point about offenders leaving only to be back in the system again, simple because the skills they have coming out are only conducive to hustling again. I am not suggesting that you offer the program to everyone in prison, but I have to believe there are offenders that fit a profile that makes them more likely to be chnaged by education programs. Plus there could be a way to earn/ pay back your degree by picking up extra work cleaning up bathroom, or painting prison walls, or cleaning up roads.. something... It isn't just about feeling good, its about attempting programs that improve the goal of our prison system- rehabilitation... may it works maybe is doesn't, but that doesn't mean don't try. That sounds racist and profiling? how fair would that be? WHy not train them to be tradesmen. I am sure their are plenty of paint, plumbing, and masonery repair in prison and that would save a ton to us taxpayers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 That sounds racist and profiling? how fair would that be? That doesn't make a hint of sense. WHy not train them to be tradesmen. I am sure their are plenty of paint, plumbing, and masonery repair in prison and that would save a ton to us taxpayers! Because the union workers the prison laborers are replacing in your senario would win the lawsuit over their duties contract, costing the tax payers even more money. I could absolutely get behind a push for trade training in addition to the MBA program in an effort to reach even more inmates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikeIGiveADarn Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) I love how the only objections I see here toward moving away from our ridiculously ineffective punitive justice system and toward a PROVEN system of rehabilitative justice are from people who feel the need to denigrate others who have failed. Recidivism in America is around 67%. Recidivism in the European Nordic states, who focus more on "soft justice" and rehab of their inmates (I know, I know, bunch a pussies) have brought recidivism down to around 1% http://www.dropoutpr...nordic-prisons/ Now I know this could get complicated, so I'll go slow. If these programs could cut American recidivism by even a quarter, that means lower crime rates, which means less police officers, prison guards, bricks and bars bought on the taxpayers expense, which means more taxpayer money could go into other government programs, such as education, may even helping MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS ET BETTER EDUMACATED THEMSELVES! Edited February 22, 2014 by LikeIGiveADarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 That doesn't make a hint of sense. Because the union workers the prison laborers are replacing in your senario would win the lawsuit over their duties contract, costing the tax payers even more money. I could absolutely get behind a push for trade training in addition to the MBA program in an effort to reach even more inmates. Trade training would make a hell of a lot more sense in most cases, since the ROI's ultimately better since criminals tend on average to have a lower level of education and literacy than non-criminals. The best thing about this thread is watching people argue the two extreme positions: "everyone gets a free MBA" vs. "no one should have any education whatsoever." Hey, maybe there's some sort of middle ground or something, where the only people offered opportunities are those that can and will actually use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I love how the only objections I see here toward moving away from our ridiculously ineffective punitive justice system and toward a PROVEN system of rehabilitative justice are from people who feel the need to denigrate others who have failed. Recidivism in America is around 67%. Recidivism in the European Nordic states, who focus more on "soft justice" and rehab of their inmates (I know, I know, bunch a pussies) have brought recidivism down to around 1% http://www.dropoutpr...nordic-prisons/ Now I know this could get complicated, so I'll go slow. If these programs could cut American recidivism by even a quarter, that means lower crime rates, which means less police officers, prison guards, bricks and bars bought on the taxpayers expense, which means more taxpayer money could go into other government programs, such as education, may even helping MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS ET BETTER EDUMACATED THEMSELVES! Or instead, lower taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Trade training would make a hell of a lot more sense in most cases, since the ROI's ultimately better since criminals tend on average to have a lower level of education and literacy than non-criminals. The best thing about this thread is watching people argue the two extreme positions: "everyone gets a free MBA" vs. "no one should have any education whatsoever." Hey, maybe there's some sort of middle ground or something, where the only people offered opportunities are those that can and will actually use it? That would be a great idea. Now, how do you determine who can and or will use their degree in a positive way? I love how the only objections I see here toward moving away from our ridiculously ineffective punitive justice system and toward a PROVEN system of rehabilitative justice are from people who feel the need to denigrate others who have failed. Recidivism in America is around 67%. Recidivism in the European Nordic states, who focus more on "soft justice" and rehab of their inmates (I know, I know, bunch a pussies) have brought recidivism down to around 1% http://www.dropoutpr...nordic-prisons/ Now I know this could get complicated, so I'll go slow. If these programs could cut American recidivism by even a quarter, that means lower crime rates, which means less police officers, prison guards, bricks and bars bought on the taxpayers expense, which means more taxpayer money could go into other government programs, such as education, may even helping MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS ET BETTER EDUMACATED THEMSELVES! Other than the fact the Scandinavian culture is completely...and I mean COMPLETELY different from ours you're spot on on comparing their recidivism rate to ours. Now I'm not saying education won't help reduce recidivism but your comparison is foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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