Bills Fan since '64 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I'm hesitant to be a naysayer before the guy even starts the job, but I'm a little tired of articles like this one that point to Matthew Stafford as proof that Todd Downing is a great QB coach: http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive I like Stafford and enjoy watching him play, but his mechanics are so bad (sidearm throwing) that even the TV announcers notice it. As for EJ, his footwork is so bad that EVEN I NOTICE IT (I've lost count of the number of passes he threw off the front foot). Wouldn't it have been nicer to get someone who actually succeeded in coaching a QB to meaningful improvement? Just saying. Edited February 17, 2014 by Bills Fan since '64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Food_Pyramid_Wrong Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) What's it matter. The Bills hired QB coach extraordinaire David Lee to fix Fitzpatrick's flaws. Fitz didn't change one iota. EJ Manuel is what he is. Great Sports Science QB, inaccurate thrower during actual football games. Edited February 17, 2014 by SaratogaMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm hesitant to be a naysayer before the guy even starts the job, but I'm a little tired of articles like this one that point to Matthew Stafford as proof that Todd Downing is a great QB coach: http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive I like Stafford and enjoy watching him play, but his mechanics are so bad (sidearm throwing) that even the TV announcers notice it. As for EJ, his footwork is so bad that EVEN I NOTICE IT (I've lost count of the number of passes he threw off the front foot). Wouldn't it have been nicer to get someone who actually succeeded in coaching a QB to meaningful improvement? Just saying. I made the same point right when he was hired...everyone seems to agree that EJ has some problems with his mechanics... and mechanics seem to be the same thing that most "experts" point to when saying that Stafford hasn't played as well as he should have...so why hire a guy who couldn't get Stafford to improve? I am a little hesitiant about this hire as well...as much as I like all the other coaching moves, this one could prove to be pretty vital to the teams success this year. The fact that he worked with Thad Lewis as well, does add a little intrigue however...either way, I am very glad that the Bills addressed the issue. On the other hand: If EJ has one thing going for him, by all accounts, he is someone who very much wants to learn, wants to play his best, and realizes he has some learnging to do. From the sounds of it, Stafford is a bit more bull-headed. He had the advantage of having Calvin to sling the ball too...so his mindset might be that he doesn't need to improve.... What's it matter. The Bills hired QB coach extraordinaire David Lee to fix Fitzpatrick's flaws. Fitz didn't change one iota. I would make the argument that Fitz got worse under Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Phillip Rivers has terrible mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm hesitant to be a naysayer before the guy even starts the job, but I'm a little tired of articles like this one that point to Matthew Stafford as proof that Todd Downing is a great QB coach: http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive I like Stafford and enjoy watching him play, but his mechanics are so bad (sidearm throwing) that even the TV announcers notice it. As for EJ, his footwork is so bad that EVEN I NOTICE IT (I've lost count of the number of passes he threw off the front foot). Wouldn't it have been nicer to get someone who actually succeeded in coaching a QB to meaningful improvement? Just saying. Would you rather he threw off his back foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm hesitant to be a naysayer before the guy even starts the job, but I'm a little tired of articles like this one that point to Matthew Stafford as proof that Todd Downing is a great QB coach: http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive I like Stafford and enjoy watching him play, but his mechanics are so bad (sidearm throwing) that even the TV announcers notice it. As for EJ, his footwork is so bad that EVEN I NOTICE IT (I've lost count of the number of passes he threw off the front foot). Wouldn't it have been nicer to get someone who actually succeeded in coaching a QB to meaningful improvement? Just saying. I think you meant to say back foot. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 And it is kinda funny that we are picking apart a guy who threw for 5,000 yards & 40 tds. I'm sure that's not a bad thing to have on a resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 And it is kinda funny that we are picking apart a guy who threw for 5,000 yards & 40 tds. I'm sure that's not a bad thing to have on a resume. While that is true, even if that was 3 years ago, it is hard not to notice, while Staffords numbers have looked good since, his completion percetage has dropped about 4% since, and his TD/Int ration has changed dramatically...and not for the better. I will say, I don't follow the Lions all that closely, but the "noise" coming out of Detroit this past season, IRG to Stafford, was that his mechanics were breaking down...at the end of the season I remember there being some hub-bub about him bristling at the notion, put forth by the team, that he connect with some sort of "QB guru" to work on his mechanics. Now, I will acknowledge, what happned with Stafford does not necessarily mean the same thing for EJ...but it did make me stop and think a bit more about this hire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 What's it matter. The Bills hired QB coach extraordinaire David Lee to fix Fitzpatrick's flaws. Fitz didn't change one iota. EJ Manuel is what he is. Great Sports Science QB, inaccurate thrower during actual football games. Fitz never seemed sold on it in interviews I saw. He also did not work on his craft too much in the offseason. If EJ is different in this regard and works his tail off to get better, no harm in throwing more coaching his way. Also his stats in collage and year 1 don't align with this inaccuracy myth. Inconsistent maybe, in accurate.... BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Phillip Rivers has terrible mechanics. Agreed there too...but Rivers has shown to be successful with those mechanics...as has Staff to a degree...EJ hasn't shown that just yet. I am by no means an EJ basher (I like the kid a lot), but it would be silly to pretend that accuracy is not an issue that he needs to address. "Experts" seem to think that the only way he is going to improve his accuracy, is by improving his mechanics. Guys like Rivers, and Bernis Kosar had/have terrible mechanics, but were very accurate passers. EJ has suspect mechanics, and has shown to be inaccurate...do the math! Also his stats in collage and year 1 don't align with this inaccuracy myth. Inconsistent maybe, in accurate.... BS You may be right there...but having strong mechanics are a great way to improve consistancy. Edited February 17, 2014 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Agreed there too...but Rivers has shown to be successful with those mechanics...as has Staff to a degree...EJ hasn't shown that just yet. I am by no means an EJ basher (I like the kid a lot), but it would be silly to pretend that accuracy is not an issue that he needs to address. "Experts" seem to think that the only way he is going to improve his accuracy, is by improving his mechanics. Guys like Rivers, and Bernis Kosar had/have terrible mechanics, but were very accurate passers. EJ has suspect mechanics, and has shown to be inaccurate...do the math! Agreed with all your points. I also am worry about changing too much up & screwing up a young player. IMO, EJ's biggest problem is his footwork. When he doesn't set his feet, his passes go all over the place. I also think missing a lot of practice with both his injuries and the Wrs (we had a lot of wr injuries) hurts a lot too. As great as Peyton Manning's mechanics are, what helps him is his preparation & practice habits. You can't just go out there game day & have timing. But I like that Downing is young & seems eager to work with EJ. The Lions also struggled with drops as well. Fitz never seemed sold on it in interviews I saw. He also did not work on his craft too much in the offseason. If EJ is different in this regard and works his tail off to get better, no harm in throwing more coaching his way. Also his stats in collage and year 1 don't align with this inaccuracy myth. Inconsistent maybe, in accurate.... BS Good point. EJ was a career 67% passer in college. (Cue EJ haters). Matt Stafford was 57% in college. Personally, I think Stafford is what he is. A fringe top 10 qb who isn't the most accurate passer. IMO, Downing maxed out Stafford. I'm very interested to see what he can do with a healthy EJ. And I respected a guy who worked his way up the coaching ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Who should be the Bills' QB then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm hesitant to be a naysayer before the guy even starts the job, but I'm a little tired of articles like this one that point to Matthew Stafford as proof that Todd Downing is a great QB coach: http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive I like Stafford and enjoy watching him play, but his mechanics are so bad (sidearm throwing) that even the TV announcers notice it. As for EJ, his footwork is so bad that EVEN I NOTICE IT (I've lost count of the number of passes he threw off the front foot). Wouldn't it have been nicer to get someone who actually succeeded in coaching a QB to meaningful improvement? Just saying. I doubt that Stafford had any interest in changing his mechanics. He's been successful doing it his way. We don't know the 'little things' that Downing may have done. Hopefully, Manuel does really want to improve his mechanics because he badly needs to. Hopefully Downing can help with that. I think that the true measure of what Downing does though is how he's able/unable to get into EJ's head. Manuel needs the confidence to throw his receivers open. He needs to have confidence in his receivers that they will be where they are supposed to be when they're supposed to be there. He has to trust himself to hit moving targets. All that stuff is mental/vision. If Downing can fix that stuff then he'll be a success regardless of whether Manuel's mechanics improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Although related, let's not confuse throwing motion with mechanics. A sidearm delivery may not be preferable to a classic overhand delivery, but if a QB is mechanically sound otherwise and can find passing lanes, it won't matter much that the ball is released at a lower point. EJ is a study in mechanical schizophrenia. From the waist up, there is little you would want to change mechanically, if anything. For a guy so long, he has a remarkably efficient motion with one of the quicker releases you'll see and from that desirable higher point. From the waist down, he's a mess. But that's where it all begins. Can't launch rockets from unstable platforms. He's been able to hide behind a very strong arm his entire career but the complexities of an NFL offense and the increased reliance on timing at this level is going to demand he fix his lower body mechanical issues. I think that comes with repetition and patience. I saw too much of a panic factor and rushing through progressions and then the inevitable breakdown with his feet. I'd duct tape his arms to his sides and make him do nothing but dropbacks for every pattern in the playbook for a solid month. He'd be a fricken' Baryshnikov by the time I got done with him. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Agreed with all your points. I also am worry about changing too much up & screwing up a young player. IMO, EJ's biggest problem is his footwork. When he doesn't set his feet, his passes go all over the place. I also think missing a lot of practice with both his injuries and the Wrs (we had a lot of wr injuries) hurts a lot too. As great as Peyton Manning's mechanics are, what helps him is his preparation & practice habits. You can't just go out there game day & have timing. But I like that Downing is young & seems eager to work with EJ. The Lions also struggled with drops as well. Good point. EJ was a career 67% passer in college. (Cue EJ haters). Matt Stafford was 57% in college. Personally, I think Stafford is what he is. A fringe top 10 qb who isn't the most accurate passer. IMO, Downing maxed out Stafford. I'm very interested to see what he can do with a healthy EJ. And I respected a guy who worked his way up the coaching ranks. This is an interesting conversation and I'm glad OP brought it up. The question of whether Downing has the goods to fix EJ is valid, but only if we all agree with what's wrong with EJ. Anyone who watched The Bills last year knows EJ's footwork sucks...sometimes. When he's confident and poised in the pocket (which he is...sometimes), there's virtually nothing wrong with his mechanics. It's been talked about a lot: EJ needs to learn to just let her rip! So, when it comes to Downing, I don't think his first priority is devoting EJ's brain cells to footwork, but rather getting into the right frame of mind to sling it a little more (kinda like...I don't know...Stafford does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You may be right there...but having strong mechanics are a great way to improve consistancy. I agree on the need for improvement 100%. Just not buying the he's inaccurate and always will be narrative. If I paraphrase everything I heard from coaching this year, EJs biggest issue is footwork and speed of read progressions both too slow or too fast at times in conjunction with drop footwork. The good news, I believe, is fixing footwork should be the easiest area to improve. Drew Brees, manning, Brady... They all improved their footwork and reads drastically. This propelled them all from below average starters to greats! Although related, let's not confuse throwing motion with mechanics. A sidearm delivery may not be preferable to a classic overhand delivery, but if a QB is mechanically sound otherwise and can find passing lanes, it won't matter much that the ball is released at a lower point. EJ is a study in mechanical schizophrenia. From the waist up, there is little you would want to change mechanically, if anything. For a guy so long, he has a remarkably efficient motion with one of the quicker releases you'll see and from that desirable higher point. From the waist down, he's a mess. But that's where it all begins. Can't launch rockets from unstable platforms. He's been able to hide behind a very strong arm his entire career but the complexities of an NFL offense and the increased reliance on timing at this level is going to demand he fix his lower body mechanical issues. I think that comes with repetition and patience. I saw too much of a panic factor and rushing through progressions and then the inevitable breakdown with his feet. I'd duct tape his arms to his sides and make him do nothing but dropbacks for every pattern in the playbook for a solid month. He'd be a fricken' Baryshnikov by the time I got done with him. GO BILLS!!! This seems spot-on to me. By all means Baryshnikov him up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I agree on the need for improvement 100%. Just not buying the he's inaccurate and always will be narrative. If I paraphrase everything I heard from coaching this year, EJs biggest issue is footwork and speed of read progressions both too slow or too fast at times in conjunction with drop footwork. The good news, I believe, is fixing footwork should be the easiest area to improve. Drew Brees, manning, Brady... They all improved their footwork and reads drastically. This propelled them all from below average starters to greats! Also, counting backwards: We know Fitz spent a couple days once on a high school field in Arizona throwing patterns to uncovered receivers. We know Edwards played a lot of golf. We know JP...surfed? And we know EJ has said, more than any of these guys ever did, that he's committed to improving and putting in the offseason reps to get better. His colleagues and coaches have said the same. Mark me in the wait and see column and consider this reasons 1-1000 why the Bills WON'T draft a first OR second round QB in 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Man... So we've gone from "EJ isn't a sure thing, so we should probably look at other options just in case" to "EJ sucks, it doesn't matter if anyone coaches him, he'll never improve." Well, I guess we'll be using our first pick on QB this year... heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 This is an interesting conversation and I'm glad OP brought it up. The question of whether Downing has the goods to fix EJ is valid, but only if we all agree with what's wrong with EJ. Anyone who watched The Bills last year knows EJ's footwork sucks...sometimes. When he's confident and poised in the pocket (which he is...sometimes), there's virtually nothing wrong with his mechanics. It's been talked about a lot: EJ needs to learn to just let her rip! So, when it comes to Downing, I don't think his first priority is devoting EJ's brain cells to footwork, but rather getting into the right frame of mind to sling it a little more (kinda like...I don't know...Stafford does). Good post. Great post, in fact. All the mechanical proficiency in the world won't do a bit of good until it all clicks up stairs. That only comes with experience. And even then, there's gonna be times when great OCs fool him, or he's just having a bad day at the office. It happens. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan since '64 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think you meant to say back foot. Like I said, I'm not much of an expert on these things but he often didn't seem to get his feet set and was flinging it based on arm strength alone. If that's front foot, back foot or whatever, it doesn't result in a lot of Ws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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