Draft: Mathews, Robinson, or Lewan

[TPS]

Yup, they are always exceptions to the rule. It's like Tom Brady getting picked in the 6th round.

 

 

 

You have an old school mentality and I respect that. But it is a different NFL. You are killing your salary cap situation if you put big money into offensive line, especially at the G and RT positions. With the amount of spread offense teams play, the emphasis of having an oline of great blockers is reduced greatly.

 

Sure if you can sink 1st and 2nd round picks into every position, it'd be great. But you can't. If the Bills had a need at LT, I could get behind Robinson at #9. But there needs are so great at other positions. Pears isn't great but he's far from the biggest problem on this team. Seattle won the SB because they had playmakers all over the field. Not because they had a dominant oline. You have to think with the new NFL model in mind.

I subscribe to the Parcells School, focus on both OTs and C, because you can always find someone decent to plug in at the G positions. Given the way defenses move around their pass rushers, you do need a solid RT now. I would argue that you ought to build your O-line BEFORE you try to pick up more play makers. Look at Pete Carroll's first two drafts with Seattle: first pick in 2010 LT; first two picks in 2011, OL.

 

Most young QBs need protection and a running game to develop.

[C.Biscuit97]

I subscribe to the Parcells School, focus on both OTs and C, because you can always find someone decent to plug in at the G positions. Given the way defenses move around their pass rushers, you do need a solid RT now. I would argue that you ought to build your O-line BEFORE you try to pick up more play makers. Look at Pete Carroll's first two drafts with Seattle: first pick in 2010 LT; first two picks in 2011, OL.

 

Most young QBs need protection and a running game to develop.

 

1) Agree about OTs and C being much more important than Gs.

 

2) No disrespect because he was a grea coach but some of Parcells' philosopies are outdated. The last QB he drafted was Chad Henne. He had a good 1st year in Miami but he didn't exactly build a great Miami team.

 

3) Seattle's starting RT was a former 5th rounder from the Packers.

[thewildrabbit]

Yup, they are always exceptions to the rule. It's like Tom Brady getting picked in the 6th round.

 

 

 

You have an old school mentality and I respect that. But it is a different NFL. You are killing your salary cap situation if you put big money into offensive line, especially at the G and RT positions. With the amount of spread offense teams play, the emphasis of having an oline of great blockers is reduced greatly.

 

Sure if you can sink 1st and 2nd round picks into every position, it'd be great. But you can't. If the Bills had a need at LT, I could get behind Robinson at #9. But there needs are so great at other positions. Pears isn't great but he's far from the biggest problem on this team. Seattle won the SB because they had playmakers all over the field. Not because they had a dominant oline. You have to think with the new NFL model in mind.

Yep, I do have an old school mentality and I happen to think that the Bills will need to build an O line of 1st & 2nd round picks at tackle and 2nd & 3rd round picks at guard simply because they don't know the difference between a Colin Brown and a decent player.

 

The Bills currently have a super stacked defense with 9 of 11 players drafted in the first two rounds and where has it gotten them?

 

I firmly believe that this franchise desperately needs upgrades at 3 of the 5 positions on the O line. Be it either a known top free agent or draft picks, i'd prefer the draft picks because those players are younger, and hungrier.

 

The Bills were 20 mill under the cap, and could have easily acquired a decent LG and RT for last season. Trust me on this as I think it would have made a huge difference in developing those young QB's, and building an O line that could actually control the game. Thus not almost leading the league in 3 downs and out, and giving the Bills defense more time on the bench.

[TPS]

1) Agree about OTs and C being much more important than Gs.

 

2) No disrespect because he was a grea coach but some of Parcells' philosopies are outdated. The last QB he drafted was Chad Henne. He had a good 1st year in Miami but he didn't exactly build a great Miami team

I should've been specific about his OL philosophy.

 

3) Seattle's starting RT was a former 5th rounder from the Packers,

I saw that. I assume they picked him up as a FA? That just goes to show the randomness of drafting too. Sometimes R1 picks don't pan out, and sometimes late round picks do. The point I tried to make was that Carroll's first drafts focused on building the OL. All of those picks may not have panned out, but it showed where his priority was.

[playman]

really comes down to who is available. if for some reason sammy watkins is there at 9 i fully expect the bills to beam up to the podium or at least break the sound barrier running up there. and there are a few players like mack or amaro or robinson or so you have to take at 9 if you want them. Lewan though shouldn´t be picked b4 15-20. so a trade down wich nets another 2nd and an nfl-ready LG to go with Lewan would be nice too.

[C.Biscuit97]

Yep, I do have an old school mentality and I happen to think that the Bills will need to build an O line of 1st & 2nd round picks at tackle and 2nd & 3rd round picks at guard simply because they don't know the difference between a Colin Brown and a decent player.

 

The Bills currently have a super stacked defense with 9 of 11 players drafted in the first two rounds and where has it gotten them?

 

I firmly believe that this franchise desperately needs upgrades at 3 of the 5 positions on the O line. Be it either a known top free agent or draft picks, i'd prefer the draft picks because those players are younger, and hungrier.

 

The Bills were 20 mill under the cap, and could have easily acquired a decent LG and RT for last season. Trust me on this as I think it would have made a huge difference in developing those young QB's, and building an O line that could actually control the game. Thus not almost leading the league in 3 downs and out, and giving the Bills defense more time on the bench.

 

So because Brown wasn't as good as they hoped, they suddenly are terrible? It's like always focusing on the negative when they are a more positives.

 

- Glenn was called a G by the draft "experts." He has been a very good LT in the NFL.

 

- Pears and Urbik were picked off the scrap heap and at worst have turned into decent starters.

 

Sure the oline needs to be upgraded, especially at LG. But lately, the Bills (last year's LG situation aside), have done a fairly good job identifying talent.

 

IMO, a dominant TE or matchup nightmare wr will have a lot more impact on this offense than a 1st round RT or LG. Just my opinion. And given where many good G and RT starters are found in the draft and/ or FA, you might be able to find a good starter in the later rounds anyway.

[OldTimer1960]

 

 

So because Brown wasn't as good as they hoped, they suddenly are terrible? It's like always focusing on the negative when they are a more positives.

 

- Glenn was called a G by the draft "experts." He has been a very good LT in the NFL.

 

- Pears and Urbik were picked off the scrap heap and at worst have turned into decent starters.

 

Sure the oline needs to be upgraded, especially at LG. But lately, the Bills (last year's LG situation aside), have done a fairly good job identifying talent.

 

IMO, a dominant TE or matchup nightmare wr will have a lot more impact on this offense than a 1st round RT or LG. Just my opinion. And given where many good G and RT starters are found in the draft and/ or FA, you might be able to find a good starter in the later rounds anyway.

 

At this point, I am with you - though I am rarely against drafting OL and DL

[thewildrabbit]

So because Brown wasn't as good as they hoped, they suddenly are terrible? It's like always focusing on the negative when they are a more positives.

 

- Glenn was called a G by the draft "experts." He has been a very good LT in the NFL. -This argument really has no merit in this conversation.

 

- Pears and Urbik were picked off the scrap heap and at worst have turned into decent starters.- Why don't you get the fact that Pears, Urbik, Legursky all graded in the red against the Patriots. WTF good are they if they don't play well against the teams biggest rival?

 

Sure the oline needs to be upgraded, especially at LG. But lately, the Bills (last year's LG situation aside), have done a fairly good job identifying talent. a 6-10 record, along with being one of the very worst teams in the league in sustaining offensive drives. The #2 rushing team in the NFL that graded as the 16th best run blocking team, along with the #28 pass blocking team has good enough talent for you?

 

IMO, a dominant TE or matchup nightmare wr will have a lot more impact on this offense than a 1st round RT or LG. Just my opinion. And given where many good G and RT starters are found in the draft and/ or FA, you might be able to find a good starter in the later rounds anyway.

A WR or TE isn't going to be a viable option if the QB has no time to throw! The Bills brought in TO and it didn't help because they couldn't get him the ball.

 

C'mon, it wasn't just Colin Brown as it was his backup in Sam Young too. This was a debacle that shouldn't be overlooked considering the points I've already made previously in this thread. This wasn't just a single failure. This was a basically a catastrophic failure in replacing the player who graded as the very best pass blocker on the team.

 

The team was exceedingly lucky to have picked up a back up center in case Eric Wood went on IR like has every year the previous three years. Because that was who replaced the two guards on the roster that needed to be out right cut after week six! Then they were also exceeding luck that nobody on that line suffered a serious injury because all they had on that O line were 3 scrubs right off the waiver wire.

 

 

I gotta wonder if this happened at any other position on the team if you would be alarmed by it, as you seem to think that the O line can be manned by nobody's and paid a minimal amount.

 

How would you feel if the Bills let Jairus Byrd leave to another team, and then his replacement graded as the very worst player in the NFL after 6 weeks, and even his backup graded as poorly. Then both were outright cut after week six, and then were marginally replaced by a not very good nickle back who graded in the red?

[Section242]

A WR or TE isn't going to be a viable option if the QB has no time to throw! The Bills brought in TO and it didn't help because they couldn't get him the ball.

 

C'mon, it wasn't just Colin Brown as it was his backup in Sam Young too. This was a debacle that shouldn't be overlooked considering the points I've already made previously in this thread. This wasn't just a single failure. This was a basically a catastrophic failure in replacing the player who graded as the very best pass blocker on the team.

 

The team was exceedingly lucky to have picked up a back up center in case Eric Wood went on IR like has every year the previous three years. Because that was who replaced the two guards on the roster that needed to be out right cut after week six! Then they were also exceeding luck that nobody on that line suffered a serious injury because all they had on that O line were 3 scrubs right off the waiver wire.

 

 

I gotta wonder if this happened at any other position on the team if you would be alarmed by it, as you seem to think that the O line can be manned by nobody's and paid a minimal amount.

 

How would you feel if the Bills let Jairus Byrd leave to another team, and then his replacement graded as the very worst player in the NFL after 6 weeks, and even his backup graded as poorly. Then both were outright cut after week six, and then were marginally replaced by a not very good nickle back who graded in the red?

 

I don't think many would've missed T.J. Graham if he were cut. Many sacks I blame on the QB. Six of the top seven teams in most sacks allowed were teams with unsettled QB positions. The team with fewest sacks allowed have the smartest QB in the league.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Section242

[Billshank Redemption]

I wouldn't take a RT at 9 but thats just me. Many good RT's have come in the 2nd and 3rd round plus I actually think LG is a more pressing issue. I would rather see a TE/WR or LB in the first but thats just me.

[thewildrabbit]

I don't think many would've missed T.J. Graham if he were cut. Many sacks I blame on the QB. Six of the top seven teams in most sacks allowed were teams with unsettled QB positions. The team with fewest sacks allowed have the smartest QB in the league.

No offense here, but a crappy WR really has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

Aaron Rodgers and Big Ben have both won super bowls and are arguably two of the best QB's in the league. Yet they both take an high inordinate amount of sacks, hits, pressures because they tend to hold onto the ball until their receivers get open.

 

Matt Ryan was in the playoffs the last few years, and the Falcons let the line go, and promptly paid for it with a horrific season. Guess what, the Falcons will be beefing up that line this year.

 

The same can be said for Philip Rivers, and the Chargers in 2012. They upgraded that line with a RT taken at #11 and the result was the an outstanding year for Rivers. Almost 1000 more passing yards and 49 sacks down to only 30.

 

The RT is an important part of the offense. The offensive guards are also important if you want to build a power offensive run game that can control the the line of scrimmage, while also controlling the clock at the same time. Teams need a plan B when the passing game stops working, just ask Peyton.

[3rdand12]

The RT is a very large percentage of the equation .

But the weakest link in the chain was LG. the thing about O line is they are exactly that . And equation. A chain link fence. the line of defense and offense of course

If the left guard (post ) is weak the fence leans towards the left to defer the weakness across the rest of the line and the chain links. When Wood and Glenn have to support Doug L. the right side was exposed . and yes that happened.

Pears has been either injured or slowed by age. Urbik is probably fine but my jury is out .

I have said i dont care how they do it but fix the O line , even though healthyish and had very good continuity had a poor season as a whole.

Because of some weak link ( s) exposed .

[Section242]

No offense here, but a crappy WR really has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

Aaron Rodgers and Big Ben have both won super bowls and are arguably two of the best QB's in the league. Yet they both take an high inordinate amount of sacks, hits, pressures because they tend to hold onto the ball until their receivers get open.

 

Matt Ryan was in the playoffs the last few years, and the Falcons let the line go, and promptly paid for it with a horrific season. Guess what, the Falcons will be beefing up that line this year.

 

The same can be said for Philip Rivers, and the Chargers in 2012. They upgraded that line with a RT taken at #11 and the result was the an outstanding year for Rivers. Almost 1000 more passing yards and 49 sacks down to only 30.

 

The RT is an important part of the offense. The offensive guards are also important if you want to build a power offensive run game that can control the the line of scrimmage, while also controlling the clock at the same time. Teams need a plan B when the passing game stops working, just ask Peyton.

 

So they can have a crappy WR but not a crappy RT. This isn't 1950's football.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9114874/st-louis-rams-lt-jake-long-path-proves-demise-left-tackle-espn-magazine

Edited February 6, 2014 by Section242

[thewildrabbit]

So they can have a crappy WR but not a crappy RT. This isn't 1950's football.

http://espn.go.com/n...e-espn-magazine

We were discussing the O line, and not the WR corps. What exactly does TJ Graham have to do with the talk about drafting offensive tackles?

 

 

That 2013 Dolphin team would have probably made the playoffs this season if they had kept Jake Long instead of letting him leave!Then replacing him with garbage player in Tyson Clabo like the Buffalo Bills did with their LG situation.

 

Both tackles for the Dolphins played horribly this season in newly acquired RT Tyson Clabo & they moved LT Jonathan Martin from RT to LT, and after he had a bad 2012 season in which he ended the year with a (-22.0) grade.

 

The Bills D line had those two Dolphins tackles for lunch in both games. I would think that the phins entire O line mess was the primary reason as to why the Dolphins fired GM Jeff Ireland after this season.

 

 

Funny how that article mentions Tom Brady, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers and how they don't have top O lines. Interesting how that comes into play this year. Rodgers was out injured for a lot of games this season. Plus I'll bet that both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady wished they had a better line. Meanwhile poor Eli was running for his life because of that crappy NT Giant O line.

 

I'd be willing to bet that all four of those teams will be looking to upgrade their O lines this off season, and all four QB's wished they had Jake Long at LT.

[Armchair GM]

Perhaps that "smart" remark was a tad miss-directed to only the coaching staff. It seems like an edict has been set by the Bills FO to shy away from more then one or two top O linemen since the Jim Kelly days.

 

But then, don't forget that Marrone went into this season after having been on the field personally coaching - tutoring those O linemen only to find they all regressed, save Glenn. Plus the LG situation totally blew up in their face. How does an ex NFL O lineman- ex NFL O line coach, ex NFL OC miss how bad Colin Brown and Sam Young were going to be last season?

 

I mean doesn't that great Bills D line with 3 pro bowlers on it ever practice against their own O line, or do they prance around in Ballerina dresses in practice? How much confidence do you now have in Marrone in evaluating O line talent in something other then a 1st or 2nd round draft choice?

 

 

 

I say scrubs because they are scrubs! Picked up directly off the waiver wire! Players who weren't good enough to even be backups on other teams. Legurski-Pears-Urbik. They worked well somewhat under Gailey because of the scheme he ran.

 

All three of those players graded in the red against the Patriots in that last game. I mean if they can't play well against the teams biggest rival then WTF good are they?

 

The Bills were the #2 rushing team in the NFL last season, 16th in run blocking, and yet #28 in pass blocking. This year 30th in the NFL in QB hits allowed with 108. 29th in sacks allowed with 48.

 

READ THIS! ... https://www.profootb...elusive-rating/

 

Both Spiller & Jackson make that run game work so well, and it would have been even better had Spiller not had a killer high ankle sprain early in the season.

 

 

Just think, what would that current Bills O line would look like going up against that Seahawks defense...exactly!

 

Not a direct response, but we're from the same school of thought. Bottom line, NFL football is won by the team that controls the LOS. OL & DL are your front-liners.

 

Not a dig @ anyone, but most fans want to see the "playmaker" types score TD's, make a key sack/tackle or interception. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, those "playmakers" are NOTHING without the guys up front...there are very few exceptions (ie. Barry Sanders).

 

How many times in player interviews do you hear "gotta give credit to my OL," or "our DL controlled the LOS and kept blockers from getting to us," or "My OL gave me a ton of time," etc.

 

We MUST improve up front, on both sides of the ball. Our DL is almost there, but we still need a true BIG MAN and anothe DE opposite of Mario. With the exception of Wood and Glenn, we could definitely improve.

 

So, as I've posted in other threads...trade back or not, I want Martin in rd 1. This kid, IMHO, will be a beast @ LG. He played LT because he was just to damn good to move inside in the NCAA. Read up on him and you'll know why he'll be a Pro Bowl OG. Trading back is ideal as it gives us an opportunity to grab a WR or TE and another OL in rd 2, such as ASJ/K. Benjamin and Morgan Moses (my targets). I'd prefer ASJ as I believe that we can get our future #1 WR in Rd 3 with Moncrief. If this were to shake out (my "perfect world" scenario) we get 2 day 1 OL starters, a day one starter for TE and a day 1 starter WR. To keep it short, I won't blabber on about Moses and Moncrief...if you're interested, here's a link to another thread...http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/165302-bb-2014-off-season-discussion%3B-mocks-fa-etc/

 

...Our DL is almost there, but we still need a true BIG MAN and anothe DE opposite of Mario...

 

Rd's 4 & 5...McCullers @ DT in the 4th and Will Clarke @ DE in the 5th

[JM57]

The RT is a very large percentage of the equation .

But the weakest link in the chain was LG. the thing about O line is they are exactly that . And equation. A chain link fence. the line of defense and offense of course

If the left guard (post ) is weak the fence leans towards the left to defer the weakness across the rest of the line and the chain links. When Wood and Glenn have to support Doug L. the right side was exposed . and yes that happened.

Pears has been either injured or slowed by age. Urbik is probably fine but my jury is out .

I have said i dont care how they do it but fix the O line , even though healthyish and had very good continuity had a poor season as a whole.

Because of some weak link ( s) exposed .

Thank you thank you thank you! Finally I see someone else agree with what I was thinking re: the guard situation.

 

In 2011/12 Urbik looked decidedly better than he did in 2013. While it may have been partially due to the scheme change, I think the weakness at LG also changed his effectiveness.

 

With Levitre at LG, Eric Wood could probably leave it up to Levitre to handle his man 1-on-1 95% of the time. This allowed Wood to then chip on Urbik's man and head to the second level or double team Urbik's man.

 

With Levitre gone, Urbik became the stronger of the 2 guards. Thus, Wood would have to help Legursky/Brown more frequently, leaving Urbik on his own, where he was much less effective.

 

Long story short: Fix the LG and RT spots, Urbik as the weak link means your OL is pretty darn solid.

Edited February 6, 2014 by JM57

[thewildrabbit]

Here is something I find kind of ironic. The Seattle Seahawks traded their third year OG to the Broncos mid season in 2013 this year, and the kid chose not to report and to retire instead. So the Broncos tried to beef up that O line mid season because they knew they needed to upgrade it.

 

http://www.thepostga...-away-1-million

 

 

Anyway, in regards to the topic at hand, I look at the San Diego Chargers from 2012 to 2013 and the difference that upgrading that O line made. Different coaches, different players, sure. But same scheme, same RB's and most importantly the very same QB that stunk it up after a horrid 2012 season.

 

The guy goes from the toilet bowl to the pro bowl in one year! Just look who his left guard was on that Charger team that made the playoffs...That's right, 2012 Buffalo Bills backup OG Chad Rinehart! The biggest upgrade to that O line in my view was the Chargers drafting DJ Fluker at #11 to play RT.

 

Rivers passed for almost a 1000 more yards 3,606 in 2012 to 4,478 in 2013. A QBR of 40.57 in 2012 to 71.69 in 2013. Took 19 less sacks from 2012 to 2013. Plus, the Chargers made the playoffs.

 

 

 

Playoffs, Playoffs! Which is something the 2013 Buffalo Bills could have made "IF" they had properly upgraded that O line at LG after letting both Andy Levitre & Chad Rinehart walk away. Plus, they knew the RT situation wasn't very good with Pears as they had Hairston penciled in to start. They should have upgraded the RT last season, IMHO Will they upgrade this year?

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and the latest ''drafttek" mock draft has the Bills drafting Jake Matthews

 

http://www.drafttek....raft-Round1.asp

 

Four good OT's in this years top 16 players, Matthews, Robinson, Lewan, and Kouandjio. no excuses!

Edited February 6, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[C.Biscuit97]

We were discussing the O line, and not the WR corps. What exactly does TJ Graham have to do with the talk about drafting offensive tackles?

 

 

That 2013 Dolphin team would have probably made the playoffs this season if they had kept Jake Long instead of letting him leave!Then replacing him with garbage player in Tyson Clabo like the Buffalo Bills did with their LG situation.

 

Both tackles for the Dolphins played horribly this season in newly acquired RT Tyson Clabo & they moved LT Jonathan Martin from RT to LT, and after he had a bad 2012 season in which he ended the year with a (-22.0) grade.

 

The Bills D line had those two Dolphins tackles for lunch in both games. I would think that the phins entire O line mess was the primary reason as to why the Dolphins fired GM Jeff Ireland after this season.

 

 

Funny how that article mentions Tom Brady, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers and how they don't have top O lines. Interesting how that comes into play this year. Rodgers was out injured for a lot of games this season. Plus I'll bet that both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady wished they had a better line. Meanwhile poor Eli was running for his life because of that crappy NT Giant O line.

 

I'd be willing to bet that all four of those teams will be looking to upgrade their O lines this off season, and all four QB's wished they had Jake Long at LT.

 

1) You are putting too much weight on one game. The Broncos lost the SB but they set NFL records for offense this year. Minus their pro bowl LT. They will probably try t oupgrade their oline because they don't have any other major holes to fill.

 

2) NE has one of the best olines in the NFL. Not sure what your point is with them. Fact is, they need playmakers badly. They have a very average receiving core that hurt Brady this year.

 

3) Long has been to the playoffs once and Miami had a better record without him this year. Joe Thomas has never been to the playoffs. Clady got hurt and Denver went to the SB.

 

4) There was a lot more wrong with the Giants than their oline. Manning was terrible even when he had plenty of time.

 

I guess we'll just to agree to disagree. IMO, the majority of really good teams aren't spending a high 1st on a RT (with the exception of The 49ers). The position can definitely be upgraded, LG also, but it doesn't require such a premium price. A good TE completely trumps a RT IMO.

[thewildrabbit]

I guess we'll just to agree to disagree. IMO, the majority of really good teams aren't spending a high 1st on a RT (with the exception of The 49ers). The position can definitely be upgraded, LG also, but it doesn't require such a premium price. A good TE completely trumps a RT IMO.

I agree,

 

I'm done trying to convince you, as most of the points I make you tend to ignore anyway. I suppose you missed my last post I made in this thread pointing out how much the Chargers improved last season by drafting a RT at #11. Ahh well, no matter, as now I know better.

[C.Biscuit97]

I agree,

 

I'm done trying to convince you, as most of the points I make you tend to ignore anyway. I suppose you missed my last post I made in this thread pointing out how much the Chargers improved last season by drafting a RT at #11. Ahh well, no matter, as now I know better.

 

You definitely made some solid points and I appreciate the discussion. As for SD, it's a good example. Flunker did help no doubt. But they also drafted a rookie of the year receiver and had an entirely new coaching staff. So there are a lot of factors. Also, they were really an 8-8 football team (they lost the KC game to backups but the refs beat them) so it was only a 1 game improvement from 2012.