Nanker Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I will disagree with you that pocket awareness is something that can't be learned. IMHO it is a skill, similar to reading defenses, that comes with experience. Some young QB's adapt to the NFL faster than others depending on the circumstances they are drafted into. I will agree, however, that it appears that this coaching staff hasn't done much to correct EJ's footwork/mechanics issues. Keep in mind that these things are heavily reliant on muscle memory, consistency, and repetition. EJ's season has been so "choppy" having missed half of the preseason, and 6 games during the regular season. I will beat the same drum here, and say that EJ needs a coach who specializes in teaching and reinforcing these skills in QB's. A solution to this would be bringing in a legitimate QB coach. A good example of this is Philip Rivers. He is no longer a young QB, but just look at what Ken Whisenhunt and Frank Reich have done to revitalize his career. He looks like a completely different player this year. I believe the same could be accomplished with EJ. Working in his favor are some attributes that cannot be taught. Namely intelligence, size, and athleticism. He at least deserves a fighting chance, and should be given the proper support. Agreed. EJ missed a ton of playing time that would help him develop to the point where the game "slows down for him". He's still a rookie and hasn't had the reps with the starters in live game situations to help his experiential level improve to that status where he anticipates better and can see play development ahead of when it happens. The Pros play much faster than the college game. He hasn't lifted his game to be a good and consistent player at the Pro level - yet. That's where a dedicated QB coach could provide large dividends. EJ's got the height and arm strength to be a very good Pro QB IMHO. Whether he develops his talent to the next level is the question that his rookie year has left in doubt. Rivers is a good example Johnny. Cam Newton is also coming of age this year. He's forsaken his wheels for the most part and has dedicated his player development to that of a pocket passer. That's what we need - EJ to become a proven pocket passer, not a putzy pocket pisser who gets squirmy when things get bar-fight hot and wild in the pocket and he takes off downfield to get another banged knee or squashed ganuby. Just my 2¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM57 Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 10 games is not enough film to evaluate ANY player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Here is what I'm confused about, prior to this season there were a llot of people that wanted Kolb to start so EJ could watch and learn and the start eventually. I fail to see how what has transpired is any different. Manuel, like most rookie QBs showed some good and some bad. They are not going to give up on him based on ten games. The only way they draft a QB in this draft is if there is if in round three or latter there is a guy they just can't pass up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) That a good point Nanker. The game has NOT slowed down for him yet . He showed nervous in his starts and does not have the trust in place to "let it happen". two words i laughed about today Horse pucky ,, my Dad used to say that . I got a big smile recalling that John from Hemet . Thanks ! and well said also. and Ganubies . Nanker i laughed out loud . awesome Edited December 28, 2013 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoName Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 The bills need an elite TE NOT possession wr....Stevie is already here and he will not get cut.......the Bills get zero cap relief by cutting him.....I'd like to see 1st round TE 2nd round OLB 3rd round OG 4th and 5th round OL/TE 6th and7th BPA With the QB play and scheme the Bills use, an elite TE is more valuable than WR....considering our current assets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Somehow people expected EJ as a rookie to come in and perform consistently at a high level on a below average team with a new coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) Upside was what the pre draft scouting reports were consistent in using to describe him. He is a smart kid . He has the work ethic. Pre draft alot of the noise was his physical element and then the ability to learn,work hard and stay focused . The kid had an introduction to the NFL I would strongly suspect was not as Buffalo Bills had planned at all. thats a different story though. He was described as having a shiton of potential. Does that make sense ? Measuring with probes is science. Measuring a QB potential is hardly that. i might guess. " ) That makes 3 of us ! Ok, i got it....it is just a huge stinking pile of opinion? Correct? Now, who's opinion is the best pile to eat from? Because i can tell you the guys that give their opinions about upside, never ever ever look back or feel bad about being slightly right, slightly wrong....or dead wrong. So you can quote me all of the pre-draft opinions that you want, it still doesn't make "upside" a real thing.....its a media term no different than 'intangibles'.... Edited December 28, 2013 by Garranimal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Somehow people expected EJ as a rookie to come in and perform consistently at a high level on a below average team with a new coaching staff. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) If you don't understand the concept of upside(or potential), the draft must be a complete mystery to you. No, actually it isn't, because most teams make draft picks based on tangible, measurable results. I have asked before and i will ask again, what is EJ's defining game in college, the Florida game where he was knocked silly and lost huge? That is one defining moment. The Florida game he won in 2011 with 46% completions and 65 total passing yards? In 2011, EJ put up two....count them, two 300 yard games....in college, at FSU.....against the ACC....oh wait, it was one game against the ACC (NC State) and the other against Charleston Southern. By comparison, Jameis Winston had 7 300+ yard games as a freshman. Edited December 28, 2013 by Garranimal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Ok, i got it....it is just a huge stinking pile of opinion? Correct? Now, who's opinion is the best pile to eat from? Because i can tell you the guys that give their opinions about upside, never ever ever look back or feel bad about being slightly right, slightly wrong....or dead wrong. So you can quote me all of the pre-draft opinions that you want, it still doesn't make "upside" a real thing.....its a media term no different than 'intangibles'.... I've always thought of it as a scouting term based specifically on the combination of production and measurables. As with ceiling and floor, they are not fixed ideas, but for example, you must surely believe that everyone knew that Peyton Manning had more upside than that of a QB leading a 1-15 team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I've always thought of it as a scouting term based specifically on the combination of production and measurables. As with ceiling and floor, they are not fixed ideas, but for example, you must surely believe that everyone knew that Peyton Manning had more upside than that of a QB leading a 1-15 team. I believe having seen Peyton play several times in college that everyone knew he already had a skill set that translated to the NFL. There wasn't any need to talk about 'upside' as his skills and abilities had been clearly demonstrated in college. People talked about Peyton (and Ryan Leaf) in the same terms they used for Andrew Luck.....he was a largely finished product ready for the next level. There wasn't any talk about long term project or need for development. The point i am making is that EJ has not significantly outplayed Thad and some believe not at all, but his supporters continually trot out the he had the most upside of any QB in the draft....and my point remains.....based on what? Size? Dan McGuire was like 9 ft tall coming out of college....so what? EJ had no buzz around him his entire senior year and then suddenly around the draft, when no real clear sure thing QB prospect emerged, he was defaulted as the best QB in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 EJ doesn't have pocket awareness which to me is something a QB either has or he doesn't and isn't something anyone can learn Uncertain of this. It seems to me that both Brees and Rodgers demonstrated much improved pocket awareness as their careers progressed. But that's just anecdotal - I recall watching Brees with the Chargers and thinking that he was kind of "wooden", and then watching Brees a couple years ago in a NO- Falcons game and thinking "WTF, is he coated with Teflon or what?" because he'd developed an uncanny sense of how/when to step up or duck or move slightly to make guys miss and keep a play alive. Rodgers, recall similar thoughts. With EJ, it seems to me that in some sense his greatest strength (athleticism, the ability to make that spin move and escape) is his greatest weakness right now, as it means often he bails on a play too early and as his spin move is being known around the league and defenders can predict just where he'll be and nail him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I believe having seen Peyton play several times in college that everyone knew he already had a skill set that translated to the NFL. There wasn't any need to talk about 'upside' as his skills and abilities had been clearly demonstrated in college. People talked about Peyton (and Ryan Leaf) in the same terms they used for Andrew Luck.....he was a largely finished product ready for the next level. There wasn't any talk about long term project or need for development. The point i am making is that EJ has not significantly outplayed Thad and some believe not at all, but his supporters continually trot out the he had the most upside of any QB in the draft....and my point remains.....based on what? Size? Dan McGuire was like 9 ft tall coming out of college....so what? EJ had no buzz around him his entire senior year and then suddenly around the draft, when no real clear sure thing QB prospect emerged, he was defaulted as the best QB in the draft. I could point to tons of scouting examples of buzz around the guy... but it's not really worth arguing with someone who has their mind made up. A better comparison might be Rodgers, a guy that many agreed needed seasoning and was no sure thing. Rodgers got that opportunity to sit and learn from a TERRIFIC coach for QBs in Mike McCarthy, and to sit and watch Favre's highlights and lowlights, for three seasons. EJ has been thrown into the fire. I cannot imagine what Rodgers would have done in year one under Mike Sherman, but I'd imagine he'd have looked a lot more like Ryan Tannehill than a league MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUNCH OF MULARKEY Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 There'd be at least one guy who would think he was rubbish if he makes the next 3 probowls and wins us the SB. I just couldn't understand why at this point in time(when it is reasonable to have not given up on him) you would make that comment. These blokes in here that think EJ is rubbish really draw me ire. All think they can be cheeky of EJ, gives me the collywobbles. You can all bugger off. Just because EJ fell arse over tit and hurt his knee. EJ still has the most impressive John Thomas on the whole bloody squad even without a stonker. I think ur all off ur trolleys. Bunch of tosh! Ej will reveal his twig and berries next season and everything will be tickety boo! You can bet ur sweet Fanny Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Because i can tell you the guys that give their opinions about upside, never ever ever look back or feel bad about being slightly right, slightly wrong....or dead wrong. You're right. In contrast look at all the people here who said McKelvin, Aaron Williams, and Marcel Dareus were busts that have come back and admitted that they were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 You're right. In contrast look at all the people here who said McKelvin, Aaron Williams, and Marcel Dareus were busts that have come back and admitted that they were wrong. I was talking more about guys like mayock, mcshay and the hair along with all of the scouting services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I'd have to say Chan Gailey over extended himself by being the HC & OC. If it take 80 hours a week to be the HC to make certain everything with the team is running perfectly. Then how many hours are left over to opponents watch film, and set the game plan? Obviously Gailey never really changed up his schemes to suit the next team, or even took the time to work on Fitz's mechanics. So, where does that leave Nathaniel Hackett in being both the OC & QB coach for all these young QB's? For a guy who has never even been an NFL OC or QB coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I could point to tons of scouting examples of buzz around the guy... but it's not really worth arguing with someone who has their mind made up. A better comparison might be Rodgers, a guy that many agreed needed seasoning and was no sure thing. Rodgers got that opportunity to sit and learn from a TERRIFIC coach for QBs in Mike McCarthy, and to sit and watch Favre's highlights and lowlights, for three seasons. EJ has been thrown into the fire. I cannot imagine what Rodgers would have done in year one under Mike Sherman, but I'd imagine he'd have looked a lot more like Ryan Tannehill than a league MVP. Very hard to play the what-if game with Rodgers because it is just as possible that had he started from day one, he would have out played favre in short order. They are very different QBs with very different styles and there is no secret that B. Favre wanted no part of helping to groom his replacement. The "sitting on the bench and learning argument" is a red herring in my opinion because there will never be any way to document whether it is better or worse. It didn't matter for Marino, Elway or Kelly. My mind was skeptical when people on this board were starting to fall in love with EJ before the draft. I am still skeptical and have yet to see a reason from college to now why he was drafted as a franchise QB. EJ was not a college stand out.....and has really just given more of the same of what most saw of him at FSU. I can remember sitting with a friend at Doak Campbell who kept screaming (yeah, he is one of those college fans) that if EJ did that "stupid bleeping spin move for a sack one more time, he was going to cut off his donations to FSU". EJ was not particularly held in high regard by the FSU fans themselves......and many feel more than vindicatedt about the fact that J. Winston has come in and done in one season what EJ could never come close to doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSpeed Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 If you don't know if you have a QB then you don't have a QB. I'm not saying that EJ can't be good, I just would rather not find out after its too late. Have a contingentcy plan, not some retread washed up vet either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 EJ proved to me that we cannot sit back and feel comfortable about our long term QB situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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