O line

[Cheddar's Dad]

Agreed...that arguments against the OL are generally cherry-picked. They struggled against the Jets, a team that is a clear 1/2-yard per carry better than any other run defense in the NFL. You want to talk about an amazing stat, the Jets have allowed 35 rushing first downs...total for the season. That's sick.

 

Conversely, even a cursory look at the Bills' rushing offense shows what they've done to some really good run defenses throughout the year. As I've mentioned before, and as is detailed in a BN article today, they've faced 5 of the top 11 run defenses in the league. We already talked about their performance against the Jets, but look what they've done against the other 4:

 

Cleveland - 3rd in YPC (3.5): Buffalo rushed for 155 yds and 5.0 YPC

Baltimore - 5th in YPC (3.7): Buffalo rushed for 200 yds and 3.7 YPC

Carolina - 8th in YPC (3.8): Buffalo rushed for 149 yds and 4.5 YPC

Cincinnati - 11th in YPC (4.0): Buffalo rushed for 130 yds and 4.1 YPC (with a backup QB no less)

 

As I've said before: the OL isn't perfect, and they could stand to upgrade at LG and RT. It's not, however, the biggest issue on the team or even the biggest issue on the offense. Lack of both a pass-catching and run-blocking TE are easily bigger needs, and I'd venture that a big-bodied boundary WR qualifies as a bigger need as well.

 

It also would help tremendously if CJ could get back to hitting the hole quickly like he did last year; the mistakes against NE and Pittsburgh were crippling to the team's attempt to set the tone early on with the running game.

 

 

 

A bit of both really...the Jets make their living by clumping their 3 DL inside the tackle box and forcing teams to move them. Wilkerson and Richardson (the 5-technique ends) are monsters that will crush even above-average opponents if left one-on-one, so teams need to compensate by double-teaming. That generally leaves the NT (Harrison or Ellis) singled up. Also, they play their OLBs extremely wide, so they can often force teams to go to a 2-TE set to prevent down-line pursuit, which limits the offense's ability to hurt them with quick passes.

 

A solid blocking TE would change the way the Jets have to play against your offense, since they can't get away with setting their DL so far inside like they did against Buffalo. Upgrading the LG and RT spots would help too, but there's no substitute for being able to single-block the edges and allow your OL to double-team inside.

 

Forget what they did vs. Cleveland, Baltimore, Carolina and Cincy. Those teams are not in the AFC East. Patriots and Jets are and Buffalo must build an O-line that can defeat those teams specifically. Give EJ time to pass and your grandmother would look great in a Bills' uni at TE.

[thebandit27]

Forget what they did vs. Cleveland, Baltimore, Carolina and Cincy. Those teams are not in the AFC East. Patriots and Jets are and Buffalo must build an O-line that can defeat those teams specifically. Give EJ time to pass and your grandmother would look great in a Bills' uni at TE.

 

The Bills did just fine against NE, rushing 34 times for 136 yds (4.0 average); their problem against NE was getting only 6 first downs through the air and gaining only 150 yards passing.

 

And you can beef up the OL all you want; running on that Jets front is going to be a tall order for a long time...there's a reason that nobody has been able to run against them. That doesn't mean that you cannot try, but it does mean that you need to use a schemed approach to beat them rather than trying to out-muscle them. It's going to take a fair amount of resources and time to find single OLmen that can neutralize Richardson and Wilkerson. However, playing against the tight 3-4 that they run, a solid blocking TE will help your more than you might think, since it would allow the linemen to double up on the inside or at least use bounce-techniques to get an extra hit and slow those guys down before climbing to the second level.

 

Regarding the TE position, I think we've seen in Chandler that your assertion is a bit over-stated. Chandler has had a fair number of opportunities to make plays this year that he simply hasn't made. Imagine a guy like, say, Greg Olson (who I consider to be a top 10--but not top 5--TE) in this offense...I don't mean to assume, but I bet you'd agree that he would dramatically increase the playmaking potential of the position over Chandler irrespective of the amount of time the QB has to throw.

 

EDIT: here's a nice write-up on how the Jets stifle the run game

 

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-re-watch/2013/11/22/5133620/buffalo-bills-running-game-issues-an-all-22-look#4033787

 

Again, Legursky is over-manned against Wilkerson, which is to be expected. He's a backup going against a sure-fire pro bowler.

 

The guy that is in the game because they like how he plays his position is Lee Smith, and he's killing them out there.

Edited November 22, 2013 by thebandit27

[thewildrabbit]

What would you expect from interviewing O-linemen? Mr. Sullivan, our problem is that we have a few guys that can't play in this league?

 

It does make me wonder why this FO / Doug Marrone ever thought LG Colin Brown was going to be an adequate replacement for Andy Levitre, or that Sam Young could be a viable backup. So anyone this team brings in besides a known free agent or a documented draft pick I will remain somewhat skeptical about.

 

Anyway, I just don't get how this team can think that they can get by with sub par players on that line that might even be questionable backups for other teams when they are starting a rookie at QB. I can only hope that the FO changes their past philosophy of thinking they can band-aid that line, and make it work.

[Bill from NYC]

Levitre himself was a second rounder as well wasn't he if my memory serves? I think 2nd round is where I'd be looking for an O-Line man in the 2014 draft.

 

He did go in round 2, but the Bills had to trade up to get him.

[thebandit27]

 

 

He did go in round 2, but the Bills had to trade up to get him.

 

He was also a converted tackle that never played guard.

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

He was also a converted tackle that never played guard.

 

First of all, despite the fact that we frequently disagree on many Bills issues, I must say (not that you should care) that I enjoy your posts.

 

Yes, AL was a converted LT. I'm not sure where you are going with this. Before that particular draft, I heard Randy Cross say that the Steelers would draft Levitre, plug him into the LG slot, and have a solid OG for 10 years. At that point I went to youtube and looked him up. I immediately liked his balance and footwork and sent PMs to a TBD poster who forgot more than I will ever know about football. I wanted the Bills to draft AL with the 28th pick that we got for Jason Peters. It worked out well.

 

As I recall, Ruben Brown was the LT at Pitt. He too was projected to OG. It's not that uncommon. Once in a while guards become tackles but the only examples I can point to are Branden Albert and to a lesser extent Cordy Glenn.

 

I am very high on the OG Gabe Jackson from Miss. State. He looks like a beast. Everything depends on Manuel in terms of the 2014 draft. But if EJ develops, this kid would be a perfect fit imo.

[thebandit27]

 

 

First of all, despite the fact that we frequently disagree on many Bills issues, I must say (not that you should care) that I enjoy your posts.

 

Yes, AL was a converted LT. I'm not sure where you are going with this. Before that particular draft, I heard Randy Cross say that the Steelers would draft Levitre, plug him into the LG slot, and have a solid OG for 10 years. At that point I went to youtube and looked him up. I immediately liked his balance and footwork and sent PMs to a TBD poster who forgot more than I will ever know about football. I wanted the Bills to draft AL with the 28th pick that we got for Jason Peters. It worked out well.

 

As I recall, Ruben Brown was the LT at Pitt. He too was projected to OG. It's not that uncommon. Once in a while guards become tackles but the only examples I can point to are Branden Albert and to a lesser extent Cordy Glenn.

 

I am very high on the OG Gabe Jackson from Miss. State. He looks like a beast. Everything depends on Manuel in terms of the 2014 draft. But if EJ develops, this kid would be a perfect fit imo.

 

I also enjoy your posts Bill; I wouldn't frequent them if I didn't.

 

To be honest, I was merely pointing out another factoid about Levitre that I think often goes overlooked. I also think it speaks to the idea that the Bills' FO may be more inclined to draft an OT and convert him to OG rather than drafting a guard.

 

I need to get a bit deeper into the class before I know who I like at guard, but there are a few I'd be happy with in the 3rd.

[FireChan]

 

It does make me wonder why this FO / Doug Marrone ever thought LG Colin Brown was going to be an adequate replacement for Andy Levitre, or that Sam Young could be a viable backup. So anyone this team brings in besides a known free agent or a documented draft pick I will remain somewhat skeptical about.

 

Anyway, I just don't get how this team can think that they can get by with sub par players on that line that might even be questionable backups for other teams when they are starting a rookie at QB. I can only hope that the FO changes their past philosophy of thinking they can band-aid that line, and make it work.

 

Because much of the NFL is a crapshoot? Players can do well in practice and suck in game situations. It happens for virtually every position on every team. Look at the Pats. They thought that Sudfeld was a suitable replacement for Gronk/Hernandez and he proved he was not.

 

I think we can all agree our O-line has proved competent enough this year. Freddy is still able to produce. I wouldn't condemn a GM for not focusing the entire 2013 offseason on O-line when we had to overhaul the LB, WR and QB corp, just because itty-bitty Spiller can't rush for 200 yards every game. I also think we can agree taking a high pick O-lineman instead of Woods/Kiko/EJ/Goodwin would be ridiculous, even in hindsight.

[CSBill]

Bottom line, when you have top tier o-lineman, you should do all you can to keep them. Bills made a major miscalculation in letting LeVitre walk, and that problem started a few years ago when they didn't pre-empt him from leaving by giving him a contract before his old one ran out (like they did with Wood).

 

Lets hope they do not make that same mistake with Glenn.

[Nitro]

O line needs a talent up grade and it show in the running game. The interior line has been a weakness all season as many have pointed out. 3rd or 4th round area probably will be the where they pick up a OT (convert to guard) or OG. The coaching from line coach Pat Morris is not getting through to them if they are still making basic errors this late in the season. After this season, Coach Marrone might be well served in reviewing his staff and make some upgrades there too. I thin the future of the Bills is looking up. The rebuild is going as planned. Once the Offensive line is fixed, the Bills will be a team that can make the playoffs.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

re: this point: jerry sullivan has an article today, the o-line was interviewed and they said its a matter of missed assignments, and "easily correctable". i think the problem is an issue of sometimes poor blocking, and other times CJ missing holes. we'll be better with better talent, but part of it is mental errors it seems

 

You know, this is an interesting point I haven't heard discussed. I wonder who is calling the protections? In previous years it was said to be Fitz, and it seemed to be one of his strengths. As well, Fitz and Wood clearly had good communication.

 

Is it Wood now, or is it EJ? How did the QB carousel impact the OL growth? How much is missed assignments, and how much is botched protection calls?

 

It does make me wonder why this FO / Doug Marrone ever thought LG Colin Brown was going to be an adequate replacement for Andy Levitre, or that Sam Young could be a viable backup. So anyone this team brings in besides a known free agent or a documented draft pick I will remain somewhat skeptical about.

 

I think the answer lies in the same reason they thought Kolb would be an adequate interim QB then backup for EJ: He looked durn good in shorts. When Sundays started counting, and the level of play ratcheted up, these guys didn't ratchet with it.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell a player's real quality until it counts, during the season. It would be nice to start the season with proven guys at every position, but we were still filling holes all over the roster.

[thebandit27]

 

I think the answer lies in the same reason they thought Kolb would be an adequate interim QB then backup for EJ: He looked durn good in shorts. When Sundays started counting, and the level of play ratcheted up, these guys didn't ratchet with it.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell a player's real quality until it counts, during the season. It would be nice to start the season with proven guys at every position, but we were still filling holes all over the roster.

 

Good point. I also think that Brown's prior performance in spot duty as a backup center may have played a part as well, as he filled in nicely there toward the end of the 2011 season.

[thewildrabbit]

You know, this is an interesting point I haven't heard discussed. I wonder who is calling the protections? In previous years it was said to be Fitz, and it seemed to be one of his strengths. As well, Fitz and Wood clearly had good communication.

 

Is it Wood now, or is it EJ? How did the QB carousel impact the OL growth? How much is missed assignments, and how much is botched protection calls?

 

 

I think the answer lies in the same reason they thought Kolb would be an adequate interim QB then backup for EJ: He looked durn good in shorts. When Sundays started counting, and the level of play ratcheted up, these guys didn't ratchet with it.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell a player's real quality until it counts, during the season. It would be nice to start the season with proven guys at every position, but we were still filling holes all over the roster.

My take is that the Bills are running a version of the "hurry up / no huddle" offense to keep substitutions limited on the defensive side in order to keep it simple for the Bills QB to read that defense pre snap. As for who calls the protections, yea I would think that center Eric Wood is calling them now for those rookies.

 

Missed assignments... even when they make perfect reads some of these players can't block to save their lives from what I see. Clearly they are better in pass blocking then run blocking, because they have been truly abysmal in run blocking.

 

From WGR in case people don't buy into what PFF states.

 

" Left tackle Cordy Glenn (67, -1, 2.7)mostly held Quinton Coples in check outside of a play in the third quarter that forced EJ Manuel to make an early decision. He struggled a bit in run blocking, but not nearly as much as right tackle Erik Pears (67, -3, 2.0), right guard Kraig Urbik (67, -5, 1.7) and left guard Doug Legursky (67, -7, 1.3). Pears single-handedly caused two of C.J. Spiller's runs to go awry, losing his block on Coples that led to a two-yard loss in the third quarter and then getting beat by Muhammad Wilkerson that stopped Spiller for just a one-yard gain in the fourth."

 

"Urbik's play over the past four weeks has become worrisome to say the least. On three separate occasions, Urbik was cast aside by his assignment and that player made the stop on a running play for a minimal gain. He also struggled on screen plays against the Jets as well. The worst of the bunch was Legursky, who was a liability in run blocking all game long. Whether it was Wilkerson, Harrison, Sheldon Richardson or Kenrick Ellis, Legursky struggled to get a handle on anyone throughout the game."

 

http://www.wgr550.com/Upon-Further-Review-Bills-vs-Jets/17817034 Go ahead, read the entire article.

 

This line wasn't just bad against the Jets, they were even worse against the Steelers the week previous. Bad against the Saints, and horrid against the Jets in that first game.

 

 

I look at the Bills front line defense, and think they are currently one of the very best in the NFL. Now stating that, this Bills O line has to go up against them in practice each week. They played against them in the off season, pre season. Do they play flag football in practice? Do they not wear pads, and wear tutu's instead? I just don't get how you can not properly evaluate any player going into a season. Gailey and his staff did the exact same thing last year with RT Cornell Green, and we found out Gailey sucked.

 

Because ya know what, I saw them as bad, and stated such. I think quite a few posters in this forum also saw them as bad, and continually stated such over and over in this forum before the season started. I can remember thread after thread of deep concerns from many posters over the loss of Levitre and how they didn't see his replacement as being good enough. There were threads on how bad backup center Legursky was, as he was the worst of the bunch from a very bad Pittsburgh Steeler line.

 

My take in this situation is that both Glenn and Wood are beasts at their positions and (Levitre graded even better) their play falls off when they need to help out the bad players. If the Bills ever want to be a competitive playoff team they need to replace 3 of the 5 on that line, and get some adequate proven depth.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

is it the O line or the revolving QBs' over the last month followed up by facing teams with top 5 run defenses?

[Cheddar's Dad]

I need to get a bit deeper into the class before I know who I like at guard, but there are a few I'd be happy with in the 3rd.

 

Take a look at Guards Yankey from Stanford, Richardson from Baylor, and Martin from Notre Dame. Why would you wait till the 3rd. to take one of these??? If you wait for the 3rd next May, the above mentioned players will be gone. Every team in this league is drafting big DT and fast DE's and OLB in the first rd. to defeat offensive linemen. And so many who comment here think you can neutralize those top talents with mid to late rd. selections or free agent O-linemen after the best have been cherry picked by other teams. Some GMs are beginning to smarten up however as two guards were selected in the first rd. in April of this year. In fact, if my memory is correct, Wood was a first rd. selection and he's a center. Levitre and Glenn were 2nd rd picks. It is no coincidence that they have been Buffalo's best O-linemen in recent years. Going back farther, Rubin Brown was a first Rd. pick. Is there a message here??? I think so. Make the selection of quality offensive linemen a top priority and your offensive will improve in all phases of the game. If you can get quality from tackle to tackle, you can dominate.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Take a look at Guards Yankey from Stanford, Richardson from Baylor, and Martin from Notre Dame. Why would you wait till the 3rd. to take one of these??? If you wait for the 3rd next May, the above mentioned players will be gone. Every team in this league is drafting big DT and fast DE's and OLB in the first rd. to defeat offensive linemen. And so many who comment here think you can neutralize those top talents with mid to late rd. selections or free agent O-linemen after the best have been cherry picked by other teams. Some GMs are beginning to smarten up however as two guards were selected in the first rd. in April of this year. In fact, if my memory is correct, Wood was a first rd. selection and he's a center. Levitre and Glenn were 2nd rd picks. It is no coincidence that they have been Buffalo's best O-linemen in recent years. Going back farther, Rubin Brown was a first Rd. pick. Is there a message here??? I think so. Make the selection of quality offensive linemen a top priority and your offensive will improve in all phases of the game. If you can get quality from tackle to tackle, you can dominate.

 

I've seen Yankey an Cyril Richardson play; just haven't seen any coach's tape on either.

 

As for why I wait until the 3rd, look at the best OGs in the NFL. Guys like Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, Marshall Yanda, etc. They're all either 3rd round (or later) draft picks or converted OTs. I don't see the need to over-draft the position when it's been shown league-wide that good guards more often than not come from later picks.

 

Off the top of my head, the first & second rd starting OGs in the NFL (playing with their original teams) are:

 

Mankins

DeCastro

Zeitler

Osemele (although now he's playing RT)

Warmack

Allen

Iupati

Long

Silotalu

Joseph

Snee

 

If you count Osemele, that's only 11 out of 64 starting OGs that came from the 1st and second round. That's a stark contrast to the OT position, for example.

 

Regarding Ruben Brown, again, he played OT in college. I'm all for drafting OTs you think can play, because they can often be kicked inside.

 

And I'm okay with drafting guards in order to upgrade; I just don't feel it's prudent or necessary for any team, let alone a team with such glaring needs at TE and LB (an possibly safety of Byrd leaves and Williams doesn't get extended).

 

My take is that the Bills are running a version of the "hurry up / no huddle" offense to keep substitutions limited on the defensive side in order to keep it simple for the Bills QB to read that defense pre snap. As for who calls the protections, yea I would think that center Eric Wood is calling them now for those rookies.

 

Missed assignments... even when they make perfect reads some of these players can't block to save their lives from what I see. Clearly they are better in pass blocking then run blocking, because they have been truly abysmal in run blocking.

 

From WGR in case people don't buy into what PFF states.

 

" Left tackle Cordy Glenn (67, -1, 2.7)mostly held Quinton Coples in check outside of a play in the third quarter that forced EJ Manuel to make an early decision. He struggled a bit in run blocking, but not nearly as much as right tackle Erik Pears (67, -3, 2.0), right guard Kraig Urbik (67, -5, 1.7) and left guard Doug Legursky (67, -7, 1.3). Pears single-handedly caused two of C.J. Spiller's runs to go awry, losing his block on Coples that led to a two-yard loss in the third quarter and then getting beat by Muhammad Wilkerson that stopped Spiller for just a one-yard gain in the fourth."

 

"Urbik's play over the past four weeks has become worrisome to say the least. On three separate occasions, Urbik was cast aside by his assignment and that player made the stop on a running play for a minimal gain. He also struggled on screen plays against the Jets as well. The worst of the bunch was Legursky, who was a liability in run blocking all game long. Whether it was Wilkerson, Harrison, Sheldon Richardson or Kenrick Ellis, Legursky struggled to get a handle on anyone throughout the game."

 

http://www.wgr550.com/Upon-Further-Review-Bills-vs-Jets/17817034 Go ahead, read the entire article.

 

This line wasn't just bad against the Jets, they were even worse against the Steelers the week previous. Bad against the Saints, and horrid against the Jets in that first game.

 

 

I look at the Bills front line defense, and think they are currently one of the very best in the NFL. Now stating that, this Bills O line has to go up against them in practice each week. They played against them in the off season, pre season. Do they play flag football in practice? Do they not wear pads, and wear tutu's instead? I just don't get how you can not properly evaluate any player going into a season. Gailey and his staff did the exact same thing last year with RT Cornell Green, and we found out Gailey sucked.

 

Because ya know what, I saw them as bad, and stated such. I think quite a few posters in this forum also saw them as bad, and continually stated such over and over in this forum before the season started. I can remember thread after thread of deep concerns from many posters over the loss of Levitre and how they didn't see his replacement as being good enough. There were threads on how bad backup center Legursky was, as he was the worst of the bunch from a very bad Pittsburgh Steeler line.

 

My take in this situation is that both Glenn and Wood are beasts at their positions and (Levitre graded even better) their play falls off when they need to help out the bad players. If the Bills ever want to be a competitive playoff team they need to replace 3 of the 5 on that line, and get some adequate proven depth.

 

I'm noticing the glaring lack of response to my question about how such a "bad" OL blocked so effectively against the other top 11 run defenses they faced aside from the Jets...guess PFF didn't write a response for you on that one...

 

Tell ya what, I'll help you out:

 

The team got competent QB play against Carolina, Baltimore, Cleveland, & Cincinnati, so they were able to run the ball.

 

The Jets' run D still hasn't been figured out by any team in the NFL. If you're argument is that you need to have the best OL in the league in order to compete, well, that's a hard sell.

 

Notice how your favorite example, the 49ers, are struggling to score points on a weekly basis; why is that? I mean, they have 3 1st rounders on their OL.

 

Frank Gore sai it himself: teams are loadin up against the run, so they need to throw.

 

That's football.

 

There will never be an OL so good that nobody can beat them with numbers, which appears to be what you're asking for; the best you can do is build a solid OL and be able to throw when you have to...that's what this team is doing.

 

A better LG and RT will help; it's not what is holding this team back (see the recent Jets game).

Edited November 24, 2013 by thebandit27

[Cheddar's Dad]

As for why I wait until the 3rd, look at the best OGs in the NFL. Guys like Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, Marshall Yanda, etc. They're all either 3rd round (or later) draft picks or converted OTs. I don't see the need to over-draft the position when it's been shown league-wide that good guards more often than not come from later picks.

 

Off the top of my head, the first & second rd starting OGs in the NFL (playing with their original teams) are:

 

Mankins

DeCastro

Zeitler

Osemele (although now he's playing RT)

Warmack

Allen

Iupati

Long

Silotalu

Joseph

Snee

 

If you count Osemele, that's only 11 out of 64 starting OGs that came from the 1st and second round. That's a stark contrast to the OT position, for example.

 

Regarding Ruben Brown, again, he played OT in college. I'm all for drafting OTs you think can play, because they can often be kicked inside.

 

And I'm okay with drafting guards in order to upgrade; I just don't feel it's prudent or necessary for any team, let alone a team with such glaring needs at TE and LB (an possibly safety of Byrd leaves and Williams doesn't get extended).

 

 

 

The Jets' run D still hasn't been figured out by any team in the NFL. If you're argument is that you need to have the best OL in the league in order to compete, well, that's a hard sell.

 

Notice how your favorite example, the 49ers, are struggling to score points on a weekly basis; why is that? I mean, they have 3 1st rounders on their OL.

 

Frank Gore sai it himself: teams are loadin up against the run, so they need to throw.

 

That's football.

 

There will never be an OL so good that nobody can beat them with numbers, which appears to be what you're asking for; the best you can do is build a solid OL and be able to throw when you have to...that's what this team is doing.

 

A better LG and RT will help; it's not what is holding this team back (see the recent Jets game).

 

As for why I wait until the 3rd, look at the best OGs in the NFL. Guys like Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, Marshall Yanda, etc. They're all either 3rd round (or later) draft picks or converted OTs. I don't see the need to over-draft the position when it's been shown league-wide that good guards more often than not come from later picks.

 

Off the top of my head, the first & second rd starting OGs in the NFL (playing with their original teams) are:

 

Mankins

DeCastro

Zeitler

Osemele (although now he's playing RT)

Warmack

Allen

Iupati

Long

Silotalu

Joseph

Snee

 

If you count Osemele, that's only 11 out of 64 starting OGs that came from the 1st and second round. That's a stark contrast to the OT position, for example.

 

Regarding Ruben Brown, again, he played OT in college. I'm all for drafting OTs you think can play, because they can often be kicked inside.

 

And I'm okay with drafting guards in order to upgrade; I just don't feel it's prudent or necessary for any team, let alone a team with such glaring needs at TE and LB (an possibly safety of Byrd leaves and Williams doesn't get extended).

 

 

 

I'm noticing the glaring lack of response to my question about how such a "bad" OL blocked so effectively against the other top 11 run defenses they faced aside from the Jets...guess PFF didn't write a response for you on that one...

 

Tell ya what, I'll help you out:

 

The team got competent QB play against Carolina, Baltimore, Cleveland, & Cincinnati, so they were able to run the ball.

 

The Jets' run D still hasn't been figured out by any team in the NFL. If you're argument is that you need to have the best OL in the league in order to compete, well, that's a hard sell.

 

Notice how your favorite example, the 49ers, are struggling to score points on a weekly basis; why is that? I mean, they have 3 1st rounders on their OL.

 

Frank Gore sai it himself: teams are loadin up against the run, so they need to throw.

 

That's football.

 

There will never be an OL so good that nobody can beat them with numbers, which appears to be what you're asking for; the best you can do is build a solid OL and be able to throw when you have to...that's what this team is doing.

 

A better LG and RT will help; it's not what is holding this team back (see the recent Jets game).

[Cheddar's Dad]

Have you given any real thought to what you've just said??? Everyone; GM's, Head coaches and every football fan everywhere want as many first roung picks as they can get in order to pick the best players. But you're selling the idea that you get better guards by waiting till the third round??? You use the argument that because Evans, Nicks and Yanda were selected in the 3rd round or later, those rounds are the best for selecting guards. Is it possible that there have been good guards selected in later younds simply because there are only 64 picks in the first two round and 224 in rounds 3 through 7 and that number of picks increases the chances that some good guards might get picked in those rounds. You want to make the argument that you've just made?? Give me a study of how many guards selected in the first two round made good pro guards and how many failed, then do the same for those selected in rounds 3 through 7. Then compare the failure rates. Do that and you will, I'm certain, discover that selecting guards is no different than selecting players in other positions. A team's chances for getting a good player are better in the early rounds and decline in the later rounds.

[thebandit27]

Have you given any real thought to what you've just said??? Everyone; GM's, Head coaches and every football fan everywhere want as many first roung picks as they can get in order to pick the best players. But you're selling the idea that you get better guards by waiting till the third round??? You use the argument that because Evans, Nicks and Yanda were selected in the 3rd round or later, those rounds are the best for selecting guards. Is it possible that there have been good guards selected in later younds simply because there are only 64 picks in the first two round and 224 in rounds 3 through 7 and that number of picks increases the chances that some good guards might get picked in those rounds. You want to make the argument that you've just made?? Give me a study of how many guards selected in the first two round made good pro guards and how many failed, then do the same for those selected in rounds 3 through 7. Then compare the failure rates. Do that and you will, I'm certain, discover that selecting guards is no different than selecting players in other positions. A team's chances for getting a good player are better in the early rounds and decline in the later rounds.

 

Major straw man argument.

 

I never sai that you get better guards by waiting; what I said was that there's no substantial difference in the quality of guards from the 1st/2nd round to the 3rd/4th/5th rounds.

 

If you want to see the numbers on OGs drafted in each round and examine which ones were good and which were busts, go for it. I believe it's not entirely relevant in the discussion.

 

Draft a natural guard in the 3rd and a f

 

Have you given any real thought to what you've just said??? Everyone; GM's, Head coaches and every football fan everywhere want as many first roung picks as they can get in order to pick the best players. But you're selling the idea that you get better guards by waiting till the third round??? You use the argument that because Evans, Nicks and Yanda were selected in the 3rd round or later, those rounds are the best for selecting guards. Is it possible that there have been good guards selected in later younds simply because there are only 64 picks in the first two round and 224 in rounds 3 through 7 and that number of picks increases the chances that some good guards might get picked in those rounds. You want to make the argument that you've just made?? Give me a study of how many guards selected in the first two round made good pro guards and how many failed, then do the same for those selected in rounds 3 through 7. Then compare the failure rates. Do that and you will, I'm certain, discover that selecting guards is no different than selecting players in other positions. A team's chances for getting a good player are better in the early rounds and decline in the later rounds.

 

Major straw man argument.

 

I never said that you get better guards by waiting; what I said was that there's no substantial difference in the quality of guards from the 1st/2nd round to the 3rd/4th/5th rounds.

 

If you want to see the numbers on OGs drafted in each round and examine which ones were good and which were busts, go for it. I believe it's not entirely relevant in the discussion.

 

Draft a natural guard in the 3rd and a former OT in the 4th and odds are (if you're talent evaluation is solid--and from the looks of the 2013 draft, it is) you'll have your starting LG.

 

Obviously the chances of getting good players is better early in the draft; that's why those picks should go to needs at premium positions. I'd vastly prefer to get it right at TE and LB in rounds 1 and 2 and take my chances with the aforementioned approach to OG in rounds 3 and 4.

[colin]

We changed the O, and went from the smartest qb possibly ever to a raw rook. We also have a rook HC, OC, and lost our best guard. I'm not worried about the online, we've played the beasts of the NFL on d this year. I figure marone knows the line as well as any coach in the NFL and will get us a couple of upgrades. I am encouraged that brown was junk and got upgraded -- I remember back when we would have a woat online player and he'd stay forever.