O line

[thewildrabbit]

Make the selection of quality offensive linemen a top priority and your offensive will improve in all phases of the game. If you can get quality from tackle to tackle, you can dominate.

Statements I agree with,

 

Building a team should start with the line first, because how else will you know if the QB is any good if you cannot protect him adequately.

[Cheddar's Dad]

 

 

Major straw man argument.

 

I never sai that you get better guards by waiting; what I said was that there's no substantial difference in the quality of guards from the 1st/2nd round to the 3rd/4th/5th rounds.

 

If you want to see the numbers on OGs drafted in each round and examine which ones were good and which were busts, go for it. I believe it's not entirely relevant in the discussion.

 

Draft a natural guard in the 3rd and a f

 

 

 

Obviously the chances of getting good players is better early in the draft; that's why those picks should go to needs at premium positions. I'd vastly prefer to get it right at TE and LB in rounds 1 and 2 and take my chances with the aforementioned approach to OG in rounds 3 and 4.

 

You never said that you get better guards by waiting?? Permit me to quote you. "It's been shown league wide that good guards, more often than not, come from later picks". Sounds to me that what you said is that you get better guards by waiting. But whether or not you said what I think you said, it's a factually wrong statement that you cannot support.

 

What you really mean to say, if I understand you correctly, is that you prefer to wait for later rounds to select a guard because you do not feel guard is a "premium" position. I respectfully disagree as do those GMs that have selected guards with first round picks last year and in previous years.

[thebandit27]

 

 

You never said that you get better guards by waiting?? Permit me to quote you. "It's been shown league wide that good guards, more often than not, come from later picks". Sounds to me that what you said is that you get better guards by waiting. But whether or not you said what I think you said, it's a factually wrong statement that you cannot support.

 

What you really mean to say, if I understand you correctly, is that you prefer to wait for later rounds to select a guard because you do not feel guard is a "premium" position. I respectfully disagree as do those GMs that have selected guards with first round picks last year and in previous years.

 

How is this that difficult to understand?

 

More often than not, the good guards are later round picks. Very simple: you can draft guards early and find good ones, but it's just as common to find one later. So why spend the earlier pick when you're just as likely to get one round 3 or later?

 

Are we on the same page now?

 

As for the first round guards, which ones, exactly, are you so enamoured with that support your idea that they're worth such early selections?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I wonder who is calling the protections? In previous years it was said to be Fitz, and it seemed to be one of his strengths. As well, Fitz and Wood clearly had good communication.

 

Is it Wood now, or is it EJ? How did the QB carousel impact the OL growth? How much is missed assignments, and how much is botched protection calls?

 

is it the O line or the revolving QBs' over the last month followed up by facing teams with top 5 run defenses?

 

We changed the O, and went from the smartest qb possibly ever to a raw rook. We also have a rook HC, OC, and lost our best guard. I'm not worried about the online, we've played the beasts of the NFL on d this year. I figure marone knows the line as well as any coach in the NFL and will get us a couple of upgrades. I am encouraged that brown was junk and got upgraded -- I remember back when we would have a woat online player and he'd stay forever.

 

This is a sampling of some of the good posts in this thread.

 

Just like last year, the Bills O-line is one of the better units in the league, certainly top 3rd and certainly better than some O-line currently employed by playoff teams.

 

The major factor which has limited the Bills success this year is the QB play. I am a huge EJ fan and think he will become an excellent QB but to this point this season, predictably the Bills have not gotten playoff caliber play from a combination of rookie and inexperienced QBs.

 

As suggested in the above posts, no position has a bigger effect on making O-lines look good or bad than QB.

 

Experienced QBs who can call protections and get balls out on time are an O-line's best friend.

 

When the QB play improves, no one will be talking about the O-line.

[FireChan]

Statements I agree with,

 

Building a team should start with the line first, because how else will you know if the QB is any good if you cannot protect him adequately.

 

So you don't think we have protected our QB's adequately this year? Except for the first Jets game, I can't remember a bad pass-blocking game.

 

Even Tom Brady gets sacked a couple times a game.

Edited November 25, 2013 by FireChan

[T master]

The lose of Levetrie & Rhinehardt is very apparent in our running game seeing as last year CJ had his way with all the wholes the O line opened for him .

 

I think next year a guard may be on our draft needs or the possibility of Asper developing into that guy ! Which would be a good thing seeing as he was a draft pick of ours any way ...

[thewildrabbit]

So you don't think we have protected our QB's adequately this year? Except for the first Jets game, I can't remember a bad pass-blocking game.

 

Even Tom Brady gets sacked a couple times a game.

My reason for starting this thread was about how badly the Bills run game is working lately. They have been held to under 100 yards rushing as a team in four of their last five games. The Sunday had to be the worst of the season, 38 attempts for 68 yards for a 1.8 YPC average.

 

That O line seems to pass block so much better for home games. 1 for 5 on the road . The Bills O line did PASS block very well this last game against the Jets, and EJ played very well 20-28 for 245 and 2 TD's, no turnovers! Cheers In order for a team to win games they need to be more then one dimensional, and can't always count on the rookie QB to play great and win the game.

 

OTOH, the Bills rank #25 in sacks allowed, and against the Steelers, Jets, (1st game), Saints that line didn't pass block all that well. Once LG Colin Brown was replaced the line blocking improved dramatically.

 

 

The team needs to run to control the LoS when needed and also control the clock when needed. Like last years Bills (#6) this year team ranks very high in rushing yardage (#4) and yet can't control the LoS by running. This was the very same reason as to why Chan Gailey didn't win many games.

Edited November 25, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[GunnerBill]

I do agree our O-Line is better than some of those in play-off teams.... but I still think left guard is arguably the biggest need on this team.

 

Equally just on the where you should draft a guy.... it's equally true of the tight end position that a lot of the studs in the NFL at that position were not first round selections. I think we are genuinely in a position where the positions in which we have need we can address in the 2nd and mid rounds of the draft, which allows us to take the player we have ranked highest on our board when we pick in the first round.

[Cheddar's Dad]

 

 

How is this that difficult to understand?

 

More often than not, the good guards are later round picks. Very simple: you can draft guards early and find good ones, but it's just as common to find one later. So why spend the earlier pick when you're just as likely to get one round 3 or later?

 

Are we on the same page now?

 

As for the first round guards, which ones, exactly, are you so enamoured with that support your idea that they're worth such early selections?

 

On the same page? Not likely. Let me repeat; Guard is no different than any other position. The longer you wait in the draft to fill a position of need the less likely are you chances of getting a good player. I suggested you do a failure rate study. You declined. Guess you don't want to know the facts.

 

I've communicated with you enough to suspect that you're one of those guys that want to feel excited on draft day by that large and fast TE that looks great at the combine in shorts and tee shirt. OK. I'm like that too. But I've watched enough football to understand that in the really important games and in the playoffs it's generally the team that controls the LOS that wins the game. With guard and with any other position, if you have a weak player and do not move with urgency to correct the situation by acquiring the best player you can find, you will continue to have breakdowns that will cost you games. In my opinion, offensive linemen play a critical roll in the success and failure of the running game as well as the passing game. I don't think you're aware of the number of times the Bills have been on the opposition's 2 or 3 yard line in recent years and failed to get the ball into the end zone and specifically failed to run the ball into the end zone. I watched last night's game and Mankins in particular. I watched how he drove that tackle five yards beyond the LOS. Result? Touchdown. That is what Buffalo needs at LG. Mean, nasty, talented, plays with passion. Arguably Belicheat's best ever FIRST ROUND PICK.

 

The senior guards that I like are Yankey from Stanford, Richardson from Baylor, and Martin from Notre dame although I don't think that Martin is first round worthy. I also like Michigan's LT Lewan. I like him because he's a fighter, has a mean streak. I don't think he's a pro LT and wouldn't take him in the first but he'd be a great replacement for that bag of turkey meat he have at RT.

 

Speaking of turkey, have a happy Thanksgiving day.

[thebandit27]

On the same page? Not likely. Let me repeat; Guard is no different than any other position. The longer you wait in the draft to fill a position of need the less likely are you chances of getting a good player. I suggested you do a failure rate study. You declined. Guess you don't want to know the facts.

 

I don't have the time or the desire to compile a thoroughly conclusive (at least to my standards) analysis at your behest; I have infant twins and a business to run...best I can do for you is post a link and make a quick conclusion:

 

http://www.nfl.com/d...L&type=position

 

2012 (* denotes starter)

 

OGs from rounds 1 and 2 - DeCastro*, Zeitler*, Silatolu*, Allen*, Osemele* (note: Konz is a starter, but a center despite how he's listed)

OGs from rounds 3 and 4 (where I'm advocating drafting a guy)- LeRibeus, Brooks*, Bergstrom* (although he's on IR), (Gradkowski is a starter, but a center despite how he's listed), Looney

 

2011

 

OGs from rounds 1 and 2 - Watkins, Ijalana (converted OT)

OGs from rounds 3 and 4 - Moffitt, Rackley*, Reid (converted OT), Boling (converted OT)*, Arkin, Brewer* (converted OT starting at LG for NYG due to injury)

 

2010

 

OGs from rounds 1 and 2 - Iupati*, Beadles*, Ducasse (converted OT)

OGs from roudns 3 and 4 - Asomoah*, Jerry*, Lauvao*, Johnson* (converted OT; currently on IR), Campbell (converted OT), McClendon

 

2009

 

OGs from rounds 1 and 2 - LeVitre* (converted OT)

OGs from rounds 3 and 4 - Vasquez*, Urbik* (converted OT), Lang* (converted OT), Ohrnberger, Olsen, Green

 

2008

 

OGs from rounds 1 and 2 - Williams (converted OT), Rachal, Pollak

OGs from rounds 3 and 4 - Greco* (converted OT), (Zuttah is a starter, but he's a center, although he started at OG for 2 years), Rinehardt* (converted OT), McGlynn*, Murphy, Hale, Sitton*

 

That's 5 years worth of data; take from it what you will.

 

I've communicated with you enough to suspect that you're one of those guys that want to feel excited on draft day by that large and fast TE that looks great at the combine in shorts and tee shirt. OK. I'm like that too. But I've watched enough football to understand that in the really important games and in the playoffs it's generally the team that controls the LOS that wins the game. With guard and with any other position, if you have a weak player and do not move with urgency to correct the situation by acquiring the best player you can find, you will continue to have breakdowns that will cost you games. In my opinion, offensive linemen play a critical roll in the success and failure of the running game as well as the passing game. I don't think you're aware of the number of times the Bills have been on the opposition's 2 or 3 yard line in recent years and failed to get the ball into the end zone and specifically failed to run the ball into the end zone. I watched last night's game and Mankins in particular. I watched how he drove that tackle five yards beyond the LOS. Result? Touchdown. That is what Buffalo needs at LG. Mean, nasty, talented, plays with passion. Arguably Belicheat's best ever FIRST ROUND PICK.

 

Actually, I think it's dangerous to draw conclusions about anyone from one or two conversations, so I don't do that. And no, I don't judge a single solitary thing based on a player's workout other than whether or not his timed speed and athleticism confirm what I believe I saw in game siutations.

 

What I care about is getting as many good players on this football team as possible.

 

As for the whole "moving the LOS" argument; it's over-stated. The Baltimore Ravens won three post-season games last year because their QB played well, not because they averaged 3.9 YPC (10th out of the 12 playoff teams) during the post-season or because they ranked 2nd-to-last in rushing-first-down-attempts-converted.

 

By contrast, the Minnesota Vikings had easily the best rushing attack in the 2012 post-season, and they lasted all of 1 game.

 

http://www.nfl.com/s...qualified=false

 

The senior guards that I like are Yankey from Stanford, Richardson from Baylor, and Martin from Notre dame although I don't think that Martin is first round worthy. I also like Michigan's LT Lewan. I like him because he's a fighter, has a mean streak. I don't think he's a pro LT and wouldn't take him in the first but he'd be a great replacement for that bag of turkey meat he have at RT.

 

Yankey and Richardson are probably 2nd round picks, and yes, they look like good natural guards. I believe Martin is or was playing OT for Notre Dame, and I'd be fine with grabbing him in the 3rd. I reached out to a friend of mine that is an area scout for an NFL team to see if he can give me some of his opinions on the incoming class as well.

 

Speaking of turkey, have a happy Thanksgiving day.

 

Thank you sir...all the best of the season to you and yours.

Edited November 25, 2013 by thebandit27

[Cheddar's Dad]

I think we just do not understand each other. I'm not talking about warm bodies. What I take from your listing is that I like DeCastro, Zeitler, Beadles and Levitre, all early picks. I've heard of some of the others but can't say that they stand out in my mind and stand outs is what I want for this team. The notion that you don't need to get top talent for the guard positions is becomming outdated in my opinion. Last years draft is where I think future drafts will be headed. Last year 4 interior linemen went taken in the first round; Cooper, Warmack, Long, and Frederick. Ask you area scout if selecting interior linemen early isn't, in fact, a developing trend of GMs today.

 

I don't know how Yankey stacks up with Cooper, Warmack and Long. From the Stanford games I've watched Yankey looked tough and mobile. That doesn't mean I would target him for Buffalo's 1st. in 2014. Rumor has it that Jace Amaro (TE) will declare and I loved Mack's (UB) play vs. Ohio State this year. If I were conducting the Bills draft I would target one of those three depending on where the Bills pick and prevailing opinions on where those players are positioned or ranked in the first round. As of now, all three seem to be sure fire first round picks and since Buffalo has no bona fide LG on it's roster that position is a top priority in my mind.

 

Controlling the LOS is something that can never be overstated. You credit the Ravens QB for their SB victory, I credit their O-line. How is that QB doing this year? You point to the Viks as having the best rushing attack yet lost their playoff game as if to say that they lost in spite of great run blocking. You don't think that poor QB play had something to do with that loss or that an extraordinary RB may have made that line look better than it actually is? You seem to want to whittle things down to superficial numbers and facts. Football is a complex game that can't be analyzed in that fashion.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[oman128]

what's the deal with Harrison I know he's been on the im not hurt list, but I might be in rehab for a mental issue.

[thebandit27]

I think we just do not understand each other. I'm not talking about warm bodies. What I take from your listing is that I like DeCastro, Zeitler, Beadles and Levitre, all early picks. I've heard of some of the others but can't say that they stand out in my mind and stand outs is what I want for this team. The notion that you don't need to get top talent for the guard positions is becomming outdated in my opinion. Last years draft is where I think future drafts will be headed. Last year 4 interior linemen went taken in the first round; Cooper, Warmack, Long, and Frederick. Ask you area scout if selecting interior linemen early isn't, in fact, a developing trend of GMs today.

 

It may indeed be coming to fruition that some GMs are placing higher value on the OG position; I'm hesitant to declare it so based on one draft, but that doesn't mean you're wrong.

 

I'd be happy to ask my scouting contact your question; I don't know that he'll be much of a resource in that department, as he has zero say over the team's draft board or drafting process in any way. His job, as has been described to me, is to tour his region of the country and scout players to create reports for the football department that serve as the baseline data off which the player's pro potential is evaluated. As he explains, it's very rare that a scout has any input in the draft itself, except for the instance when a GM is looking for a particular trait in a player...in that case, he'll get the scout that's the most familiar with the player's entire collegiate body of work and ask his opinion.

 

Nevertheless, I'll ask the question and see what he has to say.

 

I don't know how Yankey stacks up with Cooper, Warmack and Long. From the Stanford games I've watched Yankey looked tough and mobile. That doesn't mean I would target him for Buffalo's 1st. in 2014. Rumor has it that Jace Amaro (TE) will declare and I loved Mack's (UB) play vs. Ohio State this year. If I were conducting the Bills draft I would target one of those three depending on where the Bills pick and prevailing opinions on where those players are positioned or ranked in the first round. As of now, all three seem to be sure fire first round picks and since Buffalo has no bona fide LG on it's roster that position is a top priority in my mind.

 

This is exactly what I'd like to see...those are the kind of impact players I want to draft early and often.

 

Controlling the LOS is something that can never be overstated. You credit the Ravens QB for their SB victory, I credit their O-line. How is that QB doing this year? You point to the Viks as having the best rushing attack yet lost their playoff game as if to say that they lost in spite of great run blocking. You don't think that poor QB play had something to do with that loss or that an extraordinary RB may have made that line look better than it actually is? You seem to want to whittle things down to superficial numbers and facts. Football is a complex game that can't be analyzed in that fashion.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

You're right that there are always multiple factors that affect all facets of the game, and yes, it's often difficult to whittle any aspect of a team's performance down to one position of greatest influence.

 

Stats aren't the story, but they do tell a story.

 

We all see what we see, and opinions are always going to vary.

 

Mine is, quite simply, that the upgrade from our current LG situation to that of a stable starting LG won't impact the team's offensive efficiency as much as an equivalent upgrade from our current TE position.

 

Anyway...I think we've both made our points, so like you I'm happy to move on.

[C.Biscuit97]

I think it's interesting that the oline has played it's best against the best defenses: KC, Carolina, Jets' 2nd game. I don't know why but they have played pretty well against good competition.

[BigBuff423]

There is no debate in my mind that Offensive Line should be addressed, be it FA or in one of the first two rounds of the Draft - or both, but Spiller's health does play some part in all of this. Last year Spiller was a man on fire, and for sure he got better blocking with Levitre there, but there were also plenty of times his healthy running lead to a missed tackle that extra burst through the hole helped him evade that one arm coming over to slow him down. With that step missing and that full speed absent, sometimes I think the line looks worse based upon Spiller not being able to be Spiller-esque. Again, Offensive Line and run-blocking demands some much needed attention, but I believe that Spiller's numbers are more a reflection that he has yet to be fully healthy than the Offensive Line's poor play. LG shines brightly as a spot demanding attention, but RT is another serious area of concern...IMO of course.

[thewildrabbit]

I think it's interesting that the oline has played it's best against the best defenses: KC, Carolina, Jets' 2nd game. I don't know why but they have played pretty well against good competition.

@ home

 

There is no debate in my mind that Offensive Line should be addressed, be it FA or in one of the first two rounds of the Draft - or both, but Spiller's health does play some part in all of this. Last year Spiller was a man on fire, and for sure he got better blocking with Levitre there, but there were also plenty of times his healthy running lead to a missed tackle that extra burst through the hole helped him evade that one arm coming over to slow him down. With that step missing and that full speed absent, sometimes I think the line looks worse based upon Spiller not being able to be Spiller-esque. Again, Offensive Line and run-blocking demands some much needed attention, but I believe that Spiller's numbers are more a reflection that he has yet to be fully healthy than the Offensive Line's poor play. LG shines brightly as a spot demanding attention, but RT is another serious area of concern...IMO of course.

Against the Jets he didn't even get to the line before he was getting hit. Dunno how much I can lay on his shoulders for this. The line also played very poorly in all aspects against the Steelers.

[thewildrabbit]

I can recall the Baltimore Ravens drafting QB Joe Flacco and his biggest fault was that he wasn't very mobile, was a statue, and couldn't escape the rush. So the Ravens built a better power run game while sometimes substituted OT's for TE's, thus utilizing 3-4 tackles on that O line to protect their young QB on run and pass plays.

 

I can recall a 2009 wildcard playoff game at New England in which the Ravens won 33-14 with Flacco as QB.

 

His stats for the day in that playoff game were 10 attempts passing, 4 completions for 34 yards, one INT in a playoff game the Ravens won, and he was the only Raven to throw a pass. The Patriots were dominated by defense and on the ground to the tune of 52 rushes for 234 yards and four TD's. They kept the ball away from Tom Brady on a very cold day by running it all game, and playing great defense.

 

To me this was the blueprint to beating the Patriots, and at the same time showing how properly develop a young QB. Apparently, nobody in the Bills FO or coaching staff took notice.

[thebandit27]

I can recall the Baltimore Ravens drafting QB Joe Flacco and his biggest fault was that he wasn't very mobile, was a statue, and couldn't escape the rush. So the Ravens built a better power run game while sometimes substituted OT's for TE's, thus utilizing 3-4 tackles on that O line to protect their young QB on run and pass plays.

 

I can recall a 2009 wildcard playoff game at New England in which the Ravens won 33-14 with Flacco as QB.

 

His stats for the day in that playoff game were 10 attempts passing, 4 completions for 34 yards, one INT in a playoff game the Ravens won, and he was the only Raven to throw a pass. The Patriots were dominated by defense and on the ground to the tune of 52 rushes for 234 yards and four TD's. They kept the ball away from Tom Brady on a very cold day by running it all game, and playing great defense.

 

To me this was the blueprint to beating the Patriots, and at the same time showing how properly develop a young QB. Apparently, nobody in the Bills FO or coaching staff took notice.

 

So...do you think it was Baltimore's 121 yards rushing and 3.7 ypc average that carried them to victory last January in New England, or was it more Flacco's 65% passing and 3 TDs?

 

That staple "you've got to run to win in January" argument you're looking for just isn't there. Case-in-point: you have to go back to 2009 to find an example of it...

[Luxy312]

Offensive line is an interesting topic. One thing interesting that I would like to point out is that this line has, but for one game, provided very good pass protection. Take away the early Jets debacle and they gave up 9 sacks in 10 games. Not all that bad really and even the total of 17 for the season isn't terrible. With that said (and I posted this in another thread), the running game has regressed significantly. I didn't think it would be an issue, but it has. Going from 5.0 YPC to 4.1 YPC should be alarming to us as fans. There are 4-5 tackles and 1 guard that if I were in the front office, I would consider in the first round in next years draft.

[thewildrabbit]

Offensive line is an interesting topic. One thing interesting that I would like to point out is that this line has, but for one game, provided very good pass protection. Take away the early Jets debacle and they gave up 9 sacks in 10 games. Not all that bad really and even the total of 17 for the season isn't terrible. With that said (and I posted this in another thread), the running game has regressed significantly. I didn't think it would be an issue, but it has. Going from 5.0 YPC to 4.1 YPC should be alarming to us as fans. There are 4-5 tackles and 1 guard that if I were in the front office, I would consider in the first round in next years draft.

No, a total of 17 isn't that bad. But, currently the Bills have allowed 32 sacks, 8th most in the NFL. Interestingly, the Bills are currently #4 in the NFL in QB hits allowed with 77.

 

Clearly, the Bills O line has performed much, much better at pass blocking, and while at home in Buffalo. They were particularly bad in all areas on the road at New Orleans & Pittsburgh.

 

Last weeks rushing at home was so pathetic it should alarming to some Bills coaches, and really make them think about whats happening with that line. 38 attempts for 68 yards for a 1.8 YPC average, wasn't just bad, it was god awful bad!! Like I stated earlier in this thread, that the Bills shouldn't force the rookie QB to carry the team to wins every week. Putting in an extra OT to block instead of a TE, to running the 4 WR spread offense to force a LBer to cover a WR, and if the defense shifts to nickle or dime coverage it allows the RBs the advantage.

 

Even the Bills coaches themselves admit they need to work on correct the problem with the run game. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Revitalizing-ground-game-critical-for-stretch-run-/4aee626c-1e37-4642-af45-7a62d388199f

 

 

The Bills need a new LG for certain, and if the Bills only played home games, and only passed then the current line would be fine. Since no team can win consistently by being one dimensional, I can only hope that RG & RT also get addressed by next season.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

 

 

 

BTW, the run game should look much better at home against the #28 ranked run defense of the Falcons.